Some insight - Drow, 32 point characters, and newbies

[Seneca_Windforge]

1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that rolling for stats would have been a good idea for DDO clearly does not have a good understanding of game balance.

I used to play in a MUD that let people roll for their stats. The result? Everyone used autoroller programs to roll for hours, days, or even weeks to generate thousands upon thousands of results until they got the super high rare numbers that they wanted. If you used any kind of rolling system in this game, people would just roll over and over until everyone had a ridiculously high point character.

[rikori2]

Your not punching holes in anything, I would also take that level adjustment cause I play PnP and I like those rules. My point was they are better then standard and should have something that makes them either A. harder to get
B. harder to level early

My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-

[Hvymetal]

My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-

Just a question, it appears that you are implying that wis adds to skill points it does not.

[wundernewb]

4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?

Huh? What game were you playing? Back in the 80's when I played, melee attack bonus was always based on Str. Only ranged attack was based on Dex.

[Hvymetal]

Huh? What game were you playing? Back in the 80's when I played, melee attack bonus was always based on Str. Only ranged attack was based on Dex.

Yup, as far as I remember it's been like this since 1st ed.

I do however believe a few games such as chivalry and sorcery used a system that took into account both stats (or their closest counterparts)

[xman26]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that rolling for stats would have been a good idea for DDO clearly does not have a good understanding of game balance.

I used to play in a MUD that let people roll for their stats. The result? Everyone used autoroller programs to roll for hours, days, or even weeks to generate thousands upon thousands of results until they got the super high rare numbers that they wanted. If you used any kind of rolling system in this game, people would just roll over and over until everyone had a ridiculously high point character.

They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

[Uska]

I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

I guess you never knew the rules str was always for melee and dex for ranged unless you took finesse in 3.0 look to my sig for my source of knowlege

[Uska]

1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

Again yoiur wrong wrong wrong in dnd and 1st and 2nd it was is and always was str for melee dex adjust ranged attacks. and with roll systems they are for power gamers unless you limit how many rolls people get.

[Uska]

They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

10 rolls way to many

[xman26]

Again yoiur wrong wrong wrong in dnd and 1st and 2nd it was is and always was str for melee dex adjust ranged attacks. and with roll systems they are for power gamers unless you limit how many rolls people get.

Yep, you guys who corrected me are right, dug up my books from storage. Sorry about that, was thinking of paladium game systems(rifts).

As to roll systems being for power gamers. HA! I'm hardly a power gamer and I prefer rolling my stats I find the pt buy very, very limiting and it sucks to boot. In 3 complete 6 stat 3d6 rolls, I can make a character that has nothing lower than 10, and atleast 1 17 or 18. With pt buy, you want and 18 and another stat worth while, you sacrafice 1 or 2 other stats. that is complete and utter cr@p to me. And 10 rerolls is not to many when you concider that some people would spend an hour trying to get all 14+ stats. 10 rolls should be more than enough to make a character that is min 10 and atleast 1 18 with 10-14 for the rest.

IMHO, the person who divised the pt buy system should be strung up his balls and beatin with a thorn bush.

[Seneca_Windforge]

They could program is to stop rolling after say, 10 rerolls. Also with ability to place those rolls where we saw fit. So much for your concern.

Okay. So a person rolls ten times, gets no results he wants, takes the final result, and walks into the game. Next, he jumps back to the character selection screen and deletes the gimped character he just made, and creates a new one, going for another ten rolls...

Give it up, man. There's no good way to implement such a system in an MMO.

[Ithrani]

My point is that the drow from pnp does not equal the drow from DDO. If you think they're the same, you don't understand one of the two games very well.

My first character was an elf with 18/16/10/8/8/8 fighter. If that character had +4 points, I could have +4 wisdom = +2 will (a feat right there!) and skills, or +2 con (another feat there! toughness) and +2 wisdom. 4 points = 4 stat points as far as I'm concerned.

And everyone who's pining for rolling stats - I bet you cheat when you roll. -_-

Wha? Don't try and tell me what I understand. You seem to be lost, drow get those bonuses and even more to boot in PnP. I know drow in both games are different but thats because this game is only based off the rules. But turbine does what they feel in balancing. Drow with all their powers are godly characters to start with and would only be more powerful as they gained levels. But the fact remains that they are a 32 pt build and that should be worked towards getting, and not just offered to you. Hell your first argument was that you wanted any Elf character to "realize" his heritage when he hits 400 favor, thats insane. Your problem is you wanted to start with a drow and could not, WAAAAA WAAA WAAA, my first PnP character in 2nd edition was a drow, now he's a high level NPC in my game that I run (Greyhawk setting that happens to be chronologically set after my character retired) So if anyone wanted to recreate their PnP Drow more then anyone it was me. I started before favor, before drow and I was jonesing for them to be put into development and become implemented. Know what I did not do, create an Elf with dark skin and named him my Drow. You want your Elf to suddenly become a 32 pt build with drow abilities(enhancements) Find me some PnP backing for that one. I can't be bothered with someone who knows to little about both DDO and PnP to be bothered, I am out. Please go play WoW with your buddy.

[Seneca_Windforge]

Yep, you guys who corrected me are right, dug up my books from storage. Sorry about that, was thinking of paladium game systems(rifts).

As to roll systems being for power gamers. HA! I'm hardly a power gamer and I prefer rolling my stats I find the pt buy very, very limiting and it sucks to boot. In 3 complete 6 stat 3d6 rolls, I can make a character that has nothing lower than 10, and atleast 1 17 or 18. With pt buy, you want and 18 and another stat worth while, you sacrafice 1 or 2 other stats. that is complete and utter cr@p to me. And 10 rerolls is not to many when you concider that some people would spend an hour trying to get all 14+ stats. 10 rolls should be more than enough to make a character that is min 10 and atleast 1 18 with 10-14 for the rest.

IMHO, the person who divised the pt buy system should be strung up his balls and beatin with a thorn bush.

You do realize that you can use higher point buy than 28, right? In PnP, anyway. Heck, my group uses a whopping 45 -- enough for an 18 and a 16 with points leftover.

Traditionally, when you roll for stats, you roll one time and keep whatever you get. Some DMs allow for 2 or 3 sets of stats, to help ensure you don't get the shaft. But if you're rolling 10+ times, you're really just going for power, there.

[xman26]

You do realize that you can use higher point buy than 28, right? In PnP, anyway. Heck, my group uses a whopping 45 -- enough for an 18 and a 16 with points leftover.

Traditionally, when you roll for stats, you roll one time and keep whatever you get. Some DMs allow for 2 or 3 sets of stats, to help ensure you don't get the shaft. But if you're rolling 10+ times, you're really just going for power, there.

I have played DnD and countless other games and one thing I can tell you now, with the people I have played with, even using just 3d6 one time for each stat for the group(6 person group, each only rolls 3d6 once for each stat) our numbers were still better than any preprogramed die roller. Why might you ask. because programmers for whatever reason cant or wont program for a totally random die roll. they program in how many 1s,2s,3s,4s,5s and 6s are to be rolled thus making it virtually impossible to make a decent character. If you are lucky, you might get it in an hour. People who do that are nuts and obviously power gamers. Hell, I preferred BGs die rollers, would reroll 2-3 times from default as it was obviously a 28pt setup, and then augment. take from here place there. And I never had a character with anything less than a 10 or more than 1 17/18 but still alot more balanced than the bloody pt system.

[xman26]

Okay. So a person rolls ten times, gets no results he wants, takes the final result, and walks into the game. Next, he jumps back to the character selection screen and deletes the gimped character he just made, and creates a new one, going for another ten rolls...

Give it up, man. There's no good way to implement such a system in an MMO.

there is and it can be done. pt systems suck IMHO. I'll say it again, whoever invented it should be hung up by the balls and beaten with a thorn bush

[Leetsneaks101]

If you took a 28 point fighter .. and a 32 point fighter, and threw them into a dungeon with the basic group (cleric/caster/rogue/ranger/2 tanks)... The 32point fighter will not be a god or even worth saying 'dang i wish i was that character' because its 4 stat points! thats what? +1 AC or +10 or 20 HP? Maybe +1 to hit? Its not that BIG of a difference .. and the 28 pt is not gimped whatsoever... if you know how to build what you want to, 4 stat points will not gimp your character, the only thing that will really 'gimp' your character is you.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

If you took a 28 point fighter .. and a 32 point fighter, and threw them into a dungeon with the basic group (cleric/caster/rogue/ranger/2 tanks)... The 32point fighter will not be a god or even worth saying 'dang i wish i was that character' because its 4 stat points! thats what? +1 AC or +10 or 20 HP? Maybe +1 to hit? Its not that BIG of a difference .. and the 28 pt is not gimped whatsoever... if you know how to build what you want to, 4 stat points will not gimp your character, the only thing that will really 'gimp' your character is you.

The best thing 32pt is good for over 28pt, is making sure your dump stats aren't quite as bad. So, in the case of a "battle-caster" or a "batman build", you won't suck as much. Standard builds and playstyles are basically unaffected by the difference between the points.

[Cowdenicus]

standard 28 pt buy does suck for pallies (assuming drow aint opened) only because they arguably have 5 important stats. (albeit one is tops at 14).

[XFracture]

I stopped at "auto-leveling".

If you want a game you don't have to put any thought into, go play pong. However, if you want to learn how to play yer derned class and actually contribute to a party... how about spending the VERY important first 5 levels LEARNING the mechanics of the game and how your chosen profession functions in said game.

I feel no pity for those that want their hand held through the entire process. Nor do I care if they're playing my game or not. Less wipes I have to deal with.

[rikori2]

Just a question, it appears that you are implying that wis adds to skill points it does not.

+2 wisdom will give you +1 spot, +1 listen, +1 heal and whatever else I'm leaving out.

Wha? Don't try and tell me what I understand. You seem to be lost, drow get those bonuses and even more to boot in PnP. I know drow in both games are different but thats because this game is only based off the rules. But turbine does what they feel in balancing. Drow with all their powers are godly characters to start with and would only be more powerful as they gained levels. But the fact remains that they are a 32 pt build and that should be worked towards getting, and not just offered to you. Hell your first argument was that you wanted any Elf character to "realize" his heritage when he hits 400 favor, thats insane. Your problem is you wanted to start with a drow and could not, WAAAAA WAAA WAAA, my first PnP character in 2nd edition was a drow, now he's a high level NPC in my game that I run (Greyhawk setting that happens to be chronologically set after my character retired) So if anyone wanted to recreate their PnP Drow more then anyone it was me. I started before favor, before drow and I was jonesing for them to be put into development and become implemented. Know what I did not do, create an Elf with dark skin and named him my Drow. You want your Elf to suddenly become a 32 pt build with drow abilities(enhancements) Find me some PnP backing for that one. I can't be bothered with someone who knows to little about both DDO and PnP to be bothered, I am out. Please go play WoW with your buddy.

I'm the one who's lost? You're just typing in angry, run-on sentences. You're the one who's resorted to attacking me with insults. I can't even make a rebuttal against you. However, I'll try and clarify my original statement once more time. The reason Drow are not overpowered in DDO is because they don't have many of the abilities that give them a +2 level adjustment in D&D.