Some insight - Drow, 32 point characters, and newbies

[sigtrent]

I love the unlock system, I'd like more features like it. But I like making new characters and its fun to have a new option when making new characters. I don't at all mind the idea that I need to earn that option. Fair has nothing to do with it. Everyone uses the same rules, you want 32pt characters you must do certain things to get them. The are not "standard". All of those who started the game had to start the game the same way. But having played it quite a bit we have an additional option.

I think having level templates for new players would be nice. Some folks just don't want to have to think about it. For me, the complexity and customization are why I play DDO.

I like the OPs suggestions for quests. I think all unlock is good and the way the game works you might as well. I think that better XP for optionals is a great idea even if it means less XP for not doing any. I think many of the quests have unbalanced rewards and difficulties compared to others of their level and a pass through reward and quest level would be a great thing.

[Girevik]

If you give people things that earlier players worked hard to get, what's the point? where does it stop? Might as well have a weapon shop where every weapon you could ever want is available, for free. When the players that get 32-point characters for free get bored, they will want more stuff for free.

There have been so many threads about the 28/32 point build, it's crazy.

There have been a bunch, and I am not advocating being awarded 32-point builds as a reward for 30 days of continuous subscription. I have no problem with the "character" that opened the 32-point build being taken back to their initial stat-buy screen with a 32-point budget. I just don't think 32-point 2nd level characters should be swimming in the same pond as 28-point 2nd level characters. Sure, the fact they have eaten six tomes and have uber-race-restricted elemental weapons may be even more unbalancing than the four build points, but that doesn't mean the build points don't have some effect.

[Zenako]

However, keep in mind that many quests actually play differently on the different settings due to the nature and abilities of the mobs changing as their CR's go up.

If you want to run something on a level you cannot open yourself, form a group and get someone who can. I see that all the time. No big deal. Lots of people are willing to join up for 2 minutes to unlock a quest and get you started, and guess what, that is one of the paradigms of the game design, grouping to work together to defeat quests. Forming a group is the first step and anything that forces or encourages that behavoir conforms to some of the design objectives of the MMO that is DDO.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

So what is the difference? You say there is one. Everyone seems to think that there is no way to tell the difference. So what are you talking about?

Can you play for a few hours with a pair of level 2s, with them wearing equal equipment and be able to tell apart the 28 for the 32?

Of course not.

[Zenako]

The problem with trying to observe differences, is that the player with the 32 point character has had to play this game and learn it, so by default they will likely play their character more effectively than a random 28 point build, by the simple virtue of having played more.

Over time, you might be able to see if one character seems to hit 5% more often or get missed a few percent more often, but that is a very subjective observation given the variety of situations you will find yourself in.

Ironically it seems that people make a big point of having the 32 point builds, but then point out that at end game, Defence (ie DEX) does not matter since everything hits you anyway, that DPS is so large that a few points more or less do not matter, and that they can hit all the mobs all the time anyway so that extra point of STR does not matter. It matters, yet it doesn't matter...depends on who you listen to and when.

[wundernewb]

Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

To be honest, it's really more like the other players get to roll 8 dice while you get to roll 7.

32-pt builds don't make nearly as much difference as you seem to think. It's worth an actual 1 or 2 ability points in almost all cases.

What does make the difference is the item twinking. Granted, DDO makes it a lot easier to do than any other MMO I've played, but in any other MMO, by the time I've had a character to the stage where he has stuff worth handing down, I've never had any trouble finding someone trustworthy to handle the swap for me. Basically, the only difference is that in DDO, I can do it whenever I want, (assuming I'm not broke) whereas in other MMO's, I might have to wait awhile until a friend comes on.

AFAIK, no MMO makes it impossible to twink your lower-level characters.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I would've preferred rewards for the unlocking character only, as well. I think it would be superior to the current system.

On the other hand, the current system is the route that Turbine has chosen. It doesn't bother me that much, though I certainly wouldn't complain if I could retroactively spend Seneca up to 32 points. I've long since stopped caring about it, though.

Really, anyone who ever says that 1 point of stat modifier or 1 point of attack bonus or damage is significant is detached from reality.

[rikori2]

If anyone is finding leveling difficult it is because they are not familiar with the PnP rules.

I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.

So if you feel like your being oppressed at levels 1-5 this game is not for you; I started last year before alot of the bigger changes took place and early levels were easy, but I was also well prepared.

There's this awesome game called Neocron. However it has the most hostile elitest community ever. Needless to say, it has never been very successful.

You want a Drow work for it, they are a +2 level adjustment in PnP so a level 1 drow fighter is a level 3 character.

I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...

Thats why you work for it if you want it, and as others have said 400 favor is a cake walk, you can either repeat early quest up to elite, or just run the gamut of quest and before level 10 you will have 400 favor.

I said in my original post that I have a drow, it's the other characters I won't play.

personally I would walk out too, but I didnt say it was fair, just that he painted an unfair picture of a PnP/DDO comparison.

I would offer to DM (I DM most weeks for over 5 years now.) If they refused, I'd walk out. Favoritism, as well as hefty xp penalties for players who miss a session, party infighting, etc. are some of the things that cause D&D to have such a bad "nerdy" reputation. Also, DDO is more like, "Ok, your characters are level 14 now, you can either choose to come to a 2nd session each week and start a new character and play catchup, or you can keep playing that one, but with the inferior stat progression.

Also, my group has been using point buy ever since 3.5 came out. Sometimes for kicks and giggles we don't, but very rarely.

If you want to run something on a level you cannot open yourself, form a group and get someone who can. I see that all the time. No big deal. Lots of people are willing to join up for 2 minutes to unlock a quest and get you started, and guess what, that is one of the paradigms of the game design, grouping to work together to defeat quests.

I personally believe (somebody who studies and writes about game design as a hobby, www.escapistmagazine.com is my favorite, btw, but gamasutra is excellant for a different reason) that if players are "working around" your game mechanic, the mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed. Also, if DDO's devs agreed with you, they wouldn't be trying so hard to make "solo" difficulties.

[ahpook]

Really, anyone who ever says that 1 point of stat modifier or 1 point of attack bonus or damage is significant is detached from reality.

Well 32 pt build doesn't have to be 1 stat point. My 28 pt rogue would have loved +2 will saves and +2 spot from the get go. The number of will saves he has missed resulting in death is noticeable.

I would agree that 28 pt builds are not "gimped" and are playable but to say that that 4 extra points is not significant is misleading. I would have preferred if favor was limited to bonuses on the character who gained the favor. However, complaining about that is tilting at windmills.

[xman26]

That would prevent new players from learning the game. Besides, there is no such thing as a right choice or ideal choice when leveling. It is definitely a 'to each their own' situation. And it is only by making mistakes and trying again that you will realy learn.



There is nothing unfair about the current system since it applies equaly to everyone. Your opinion that 28 pt builds is somehow gimped compared to 32 pt build only shows that you don't know what you are talking about. You will never be able to run through a few quests with a fixed group and then declare who is a 28 pt and who is a 32 pt. Equipment is 100x more significant.

By the way there already is favor rewards for: free feat respec, free stat tome, free +10 hp



This would make it harder to get groups doing quests at the other difficulty levels. That would make it harder to level because as it is now, you can usualy find others who want to do it on normal, hard, then elite to get the 1st time xp bonus for each difficulty.

I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

I agree with him about the 28 pt character, hell even 32 is low. I can roll up a character using dice and have far better stats than the system used for the game.

[PurdueDave]

So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

I agree. It's a good comparison and it's a bad idea for DDO.

[xman26]

I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.


There's this awesome game called Neocron. However it has the most hostile elitest community ever. Needless to say, it has never been very successful.


I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...


I said in my original post that I have a drow, it's the other characters I won't play.


I would offer to DM (I DM most weeks for over 5 years now.) If they refused, I'd walk out. Favoritism, as well as hefty xp penalties for players who miss a session, party infighting, etc. are some of the things that cause D&D to have such a bad "nerdy" reputation. Also, DDO is more like, "Ok, your characters are level 14 now, you can either choose to come to a 2nd session each week and start a new character and play catchup, or you can keep playing that one, but with the inferior stat progression.

Also, my group has been using point buy ever since 3.5 came out. Sometimes for kicks and giggles we don't, but very rarely.


I personally believe (somebody who studies and writes about game design as a hobby, www.escapistmagazine.com is my favorite, btw, but gamasutra is excellant for a different reason) that if players are "working around" your game mechanic, the mechanic is broken and needs to be fixed. Also, if DDO's devs agreed with you, they wouldn't be trying so hard to make "solo" difficulties.

Glad I dont game with you. Point buy is the worst thing they ever did to the game. I can roll up a character with better stats then using a pt buy system.

[Ananvil]

Glad I dont game with you. Point buy is the worst thing they ever did to the game. I can roll up a character with better stats then using a pt buy system.

D&D isn't about beating the game. Rolling causes inherit imbalances across parties. If I roll a 15 point buy character (I DID yesterday, actually, with 4d6 drop the lowest) and you roll a 54 point buy (Done that too), then we suddenly have an imbalance of power. Saying everyone gets X point buy provides a bit more balance. That way no one is 'better' than another.

Obviously can you roll 'better' characters than point buy. You could roll all 18s if you hit that 1 in 101559956668416 chance. You could also roll all 3s.

[Ananvil]

The stats do not make the character, the player makes the character.

Of course. But the player uses the stats to make the character. =)

[Shaamis]

Regardless of all the chit-chat, D&D existed for years, grew, prospered, and became the icon of the gaming industry long before point-buy systems became the norm. 4 points of difference between 28 and 32 builds is 12.5% and you can only say it really is a big difference, if you make the most mediochre character ever, with all 9s and 11s for stats, where the 4 points make the most difference.

I have a halfling barbarian named Grrrrrrr ( 7 Rs btw) and he is super fun to play. I don't think of him as gimped because he has a -2 to strength, I just like playing him, and if you like playing a character, you will find ways to make him or her work, no matter what.

The stats do not make the character, the player makes the character.

[xman26]

D&D isn't about beating the game. Rolling causes inherit imbalances across parties. If I roll a 15 point buy character (I DID yesterday, actually, with 4d6 drop the lowest) and you roll a 54 point buy (Done that too), then we suddenly have an imbalance of power. Saying everyone gets X point buy provides a bit more balance. That way no one is 'better' than another.

Obviously can you roll 'better' characters than point buy. You could roll all 18s if you hit that 1 in 101559956668416 chance. You could also roll all 3s.

I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

[Shaamis]

I'm sorry, but when you roll, it doesn't cost you 2pt for 15 and 16 or 3 pt for 17 or 18. It is a strraight roll of the dice. And I can roll a better character using just 3 dice with my lowest stat being a 10 off the bat. The PT system is flawed, it shouldn't cost more to get higher numbers. Your dice dont merge when you roll them do they? Why should adding pt cost more. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game, when the client isn't crashing on me, but I whole heartedly disagree with pt systems. It is the worst thing that has been done to DnD since moving attack bonus to str for melee and ranged only for dex. You could be Arnold Swartzenagger, but if you have the flexability of the rusted tin man, you wouldn't be able to attack very well. According to the new rules, unless you are ranging someone, you are very flexable if you are very strong. Sorry, that just flies in the face of reality.

They do the current point-buy method that way for balance.

I remember they used to use an 84 point stat buying system, and people would make their stats:

18/100 Strength (29 points)
14 Dex (16 points)
14 Con (16 points)
7 Int
6 Wis
6 Cha
6 Com

and the reasoning was that "...why should I spend points on dump stats when I can just crank up my main stat, cuz it costs the same."

hence a new stat point buying method.

The D&D system is not the most detailed or balanced, but it is the best known, and it's the closest marriage of rules-to-reality out there. There are more detailed games (Like Role-Master and M.E.R.P.) and much less detailed (like GURPS)

Dex and Str should be added together, and the average stat should be what the mod is based off of.

But that kind of details muddy up the system, so it is kept light on teh rules, for sake of gameplay.

If DDO modifies the core rules in this way, who knows how the game will morph down the road.


Could get UGLY, not only in the rules, but in the customer response.

[xman26]

They do the current point-buy method that way for balance.

I remember they used to use an 84 point stat buying system, and people would make their stats:

18/100 Strength (29 points)
14 Dex (16 points)
14 Con (16 points)
7 Int
6 Wis
6 Cha
6 Com

and the reasoning was that "...why should I spend points on dump stats when I can just crank up my main stat, cuz it costs the same."

hence a new stat point buying method.

The D&D system is not the most detailed or balanced, but it is the best known, and it's the closest marriage of rules-to-reality out there. There are more detailed games (Like Role-Master and M.E.R.P.) and much less detailed (like GURPS)

Dex and Str should be added together, and the average stat should be what the mod is based off of.

But that kind of details muddy up the system, so it is kept light on teh rules, for sake of gameplay.

If DDO modifies the core rules in this way, who knows how the game will morph down the road.


Could get UGLY, not only in the rules, but in the customer response.

1. All that for 84pts, see the flaw yet?
2. Only those interested in one deminisional fighter characters(or 1 demonsional charcters period) would do that
3. They should have given people the option to pt buy or roll characters when they made the game. Some would have taken pt buy, other would have chosen roll.
4. In 1st and 2nd ed DnD, your attack bonus was based on Dex. Now it is str, see the problem?
5. Again, I enjoy the game, just dont care for pt buy systems as they suck.

[Ithrani]

I went to Gencon last year. Keep in mind this is a conference that revolves around D&D - a third of the dealers room is Wizards of the Coast. During a Q&A, we did an impromptu check to see how many people played DDO (all played D&D.) 1 out of 30 people raised their hands. D&D has sold 2.5 million books (worldwide). By that logic, the maximum amount of people who'd play this game who know the D&D rules are 83,333 people. I say that's a pretty crappy pool of people to market towards.

I don't care if people who play DnD play DDO, I care the many DDO players don't know PnP rules.

I'd take a +2 level adjustment if I had levitate, 11+ character level spell resistance (with NO AP spent) versus damaging spells as well, darkvision actually mattered... I can keep punching holes in your worm wood boat if you'd like...

Your not punching holes in anything, I would also take that level adjustment cause I play PnP and I like those rules. My point was they are better then standard and should have something that makes them either A. harder to get
B. harder to level early

responses in red

[Seneca_Windforge]

Well 32 pt build doesn't have to be 1 stat point. My 28 pt rogue would have loved +2 will saves and +2 spot from the get go. The number of will saves he has missed resulting in death is noticeable.

I would agree that 28 pt builds are not "gimped" and are playable but to say that that 4 extra points is not significant is misleading. I would have preferred if favor was limited to bonuses on the character who gained the favor. However, complaining about that is tilting at windmills.

I wasn't actually referring to the 4 extra points only, there. I was including things like Divine Favor capping at +3, and Barkskin being reduced by a point (and the ensuing tantrums that people threw over those single points).

Basically, if you take two fighters, one has +28 to hit and the other has +27, the difference between the two will be practically nil.