Some insight - Drow, 32 point characters, and newbies

[rikori2]

To begin, I just want to describe my experiences with DDO. I initially saw it from a friend in the dorms who was playing the beta. He said it was ok, but was more focused on adventuring and dungeon crawling than WoW. His words, not mine.
Later, during a fit of boredom during summer of '06, some friends (2 others), myself, and my sister (17 at the time) decided to all try it out. We ended up leveling up two sets of characters to level 3. However, we never got past that point, because of the perceived "grind" we all felt, after all, we weren't getting more XP, but the amount required to level was almost double. We also felt it lacked crucial MMO elements. Particularly my sister, who had never played D&D, was frustrated with the game and choosing feats and such. **I personally love this aspect of the game - but some "rigid leveling" options would probably be good for those who don't. ** We decided we were going to buy the game, after all, I was excited about making a Drow caster, the extra SP would be worth making a caster, who at the time, I didn't enjoy. However, Drow required 400 faction to unlock. **None of us ended up buying the game.**

A year later, during a similar fit of boredom, three of us (my sister declined to participate this time around) picked up DDO again. This time, being much more savvy, we leveled our characters to 6, and unlocked Drow during our free trial. I was also under the impression the level cap had been raised to 20. We all liked the AH. One of my friends decided not to buy, he's very much into solo-ing and just killing monsters in a camp, he's back with WoW. The other two of us bought. I am now playing my Drow and would like to roll a couple other characters. However, the 32 points characters are just too tempting, I haven't been able to bring myself to make a "gimped" character. (Argue all you want, I've played too much D&D to get over it.)

This next part is merely opinion...
I'd say that DDO definately lacks a good newbie experience. As soon as a character leaves the wayward lobster, they immediately are confronted with insufficient help. If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

Next, I think the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players. If it was somehow retroactive (for Drow, maybe you could play an Elf, and once Drow were unlocked, you could find out your "true heritage" and for 32 point characters, they could easily call up your original stats and allow you to distribute 4 more points under the same guidelines.) Finally, the "unlockables" need to work across all servers. However, a better option would be **get rid of the unlockables entirely** Give some other reward for high factions that are character specific. Here's a good example (200 faction, 1 free feat respec, 500 faction +2 free skill points, 1000 faction +1 stat point, 1500 faction +1 Action Point, 2000 faction 1 free feat, 2500 faction +10 hp, 3000 faction +10 faction, etc. etc.) See how easy it was for me to come up with a much fairer/desirable reward system?

Finally, quests need to be a) unlocked on all difficulties (barring certain "raid" dungeons perhaps) b) balanced c) make the optional stuff worthwhile. If you look at LFG, 95% of the groups are going to cherry picked xp quests or raids. CO6, Delaria's, The Kobold's new ring leader, and West are all prime examples. The reason all quests should be unlocked on all difficulties is because, some quests are naturally going to be a more "desirable" xp rate. However, if they are unlocked on all difficulties, the faction combined with the +50% xp from elite will make them worth doing *at least once* at the correct level range. Optional stuff should be worth something more like 10-25% of the quest's total xp. For example, if a quest has 3000 xp reward, and a short optional quest, it should be worth 300 xp, and if it is a long optional quest, it should be worth 850 xp.

[JD2134]

I had no problem lvl toon up, when i 1st started to play, Goodblade quest followed by WW then some other harbor stuff then on to STK , and generally after doing WW STK, Dirks, Ringleader, and a few other quest in the harbor i had my 400 favor. I admit exp may seem abit slow in coming, But general i can solo my toon to 2 in maybe a hour and with a group or two can hit 3 within 3 hours or so.. Right now im at 9 and that with maybe two and half weeks of playing him off and on.

I do agree that most group and im one of them cherry pick quest, SC, gwyens, Deleras, and such till we hit ten then it Gianthold and run it till it dry

[Rydlic]

First off you need to know something.

Back at release you really had to grind it, it was 2000 exp per rank a level one and 4000 exp per rank at level 2, that was huge and it took you a good long grind to get up there. That has been reduced by 1000 per rank at level one and 500 per rank at level 2. On top of that there was that Gate that blocked the first harbor from the second and you **had** to complete Water Works to move on. There was no favor/drow/mail/auction/explorer areas. These all have had a huge shift in game play and dynamics.

My point is they have made the first few levels easier, and given you more options over all other than just leveling. Well, that is all I have to say about that.

[CSFurious]

i would actually look for some drow who are between level 1 & 4 or are players who are carrying "shiny" weapons in the harbor, you should play with them

they will show you how to level up fast

i started my newest toon, on Monday night, & after about 12 hours of play, i am already well into level 4 & will be level 5 very soon

[Shaamis]

Turbine has made the game more newbie-friendly, but before that, in the long-long ago, you HAD to make friends, group with them, learn from them, and be a real team, in order to get anywhere.

Back when +2 elemental effect weapons were the uber weapon for level 6-8 characters, and there was no such thing as vorpals, disruptors, banishers, and smiters.

Now you have twinked characters running around with super-bad weapons from the start, probably have a few +1 tomes they have read already, these quests are more of a speed bump than a challenge.

My advice: If you want the fast way, find an experienced player running a new lowbie, and have him help you get in the fast lane.

If you are on Khyber, look me up, and I can assist you as well.

Sincerely,

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

That would prevent new players from learning the game. Besides, there is no such thing as a right choice or ideal choice when leveling. It is definitely a 'to each their own' situation. And it is only by making mistakes and trying again that you will realy learn.

Here's a good example (200 faction, 1 free feat respec, 500 faction +2 free skill points, 1000 faction +1 stat point, 1500 faction +1 Action Point, 2000 faction 1 free feat, 2500 faction +10 hp, 3000 faction +10 faction, etc. etc.) See how easy it was for me to come up with a much fairer/desirable reward system?

There is nothing unfair about the current system since it applies equaly to everyone. Your opinion that 28 pt builds is somehow gimped compared to 32 pt build only shows that you don't know what you are talking about. You will never be able to run through a few quests with a fixed group and then declare who is a 28 pt and who is a 32 pt. Equipment is 100x more significant.

By the way there already is favor rewards for: free feat respec, free stat tome, free +10 hp

Finally, quests need to be a) unlocked on all difficulties (barring certain "raid" dungeons perhaps) b) balanced c) make the optional stuff worthwhile. If you look at LFG, 95% of the groups are going to cherry picked xp quests or raids. CO6, Delaria's, The Kobold's new ring leader, and West are all prime examples. The reason all quests should be unlocked on all difficulties is because, some quests are naturally going to be a more "desirable" xp rate. However, if they are unlocked on all difficulties, the faction combined with the +50% xp from elite will make them worth doing *at least once* at the correct level range. Optional stuff should be worth something more like 10-25% of the quest's total xp. For example, if a quest has 3000 xp reward, and a short optional quest, it should be worth 300 xp, and if it is a long optional quest, it should be worth 850 xp.

This would make it harder to get groups doing quests at the other difficulty levels. That would make it harder to level because as it is now, you can usualy find others who want to do it on normal, hard, then elite to get the 1st time xp bonus for each difficulty.

I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

It's Favor not Faction!!!!!!! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!!

Hehe, sorry, pet peeve of mine...

[The_Silver_Griffon]

The only change that I would like to see to the favor system is to make the total favor rewards based on account rather than character. In other words, the highest favor earned for each quest across all characters should be used for total favor since it affects the entire account. So, once I have done WW on Elite with one character, it is reflected in the total for the entire account. The other individual characters still have to do WW on Elite for their personal Coin Lords favor, though. The only total favor award that is character based is the +2 tome, but that shouldn't be too big a deal. Just assign it to the character with the highest personal favor total.

After all, I always thought it was silly to open my Drow's compendium and have it tell me I haven't unlocked Drow.

[Girevik]

I can't find anything in your post that I agree with.

Well, just to prove that "it takes all kinds", I agree with almost everything in the original poster's post.

I absolutely despise the "unlocking" aspect of the game and the way it discourages the creation of "gimped" alts.

I also don't think "find a twinked character who will power-level you" is the solution to making the early game friendlier for new characters.

I think if anything, those 32-point, super-twinked characters, running around side-by-side with true-new players does a lot to make the new players feel out of place and like they are missing something.

It would have been better for them to have the favor only affect the character who earned it, and maybe provide an account bonus of "now you can start at fourth level" or so for 1750 favor, so true new players would not need to have the game ruined for them by joining groups with 32-point twinks.


This game does have a large learning curve. The forums are good for addressing a lot of it, but there should be better -or better publicized- in-game features as well.

It definitely IS better now than when it was first released. The in-game quest list is a definite aid. If there was a bit more help on the pre-requisites for starting each quest when you clicked on the quest, that would help quite a bit as well.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

However, the 32 points characters are just too tempting, I haven't been able to bring myself to make a "gimped" character. (Argue all you want, I've played too much D&D to get over it.)

Since you normally roll for D&D chars and they aren't all exactly the same stat bonuses I'm a bit surprised to hear a player saying that another 1 or 2 points on 1 or 2 stats is gimped. Very MMO like to say that, not very D&D.

This next part is merely opinion...
I'd say that DDO definately lacks a good newbie experience. As soon as a character leaves the wayward lobster, they immediately are confronted with insufficient help. If Turbine wants DDO to attract more people, they need to stream line the first 5 levels, and make "auto choice" leveling options.

I don't understand what you mean by you get less help after the Lobster than before.

As for auto levelling...I don't think we want to encourage autobuilds. For one thing whatever Turbine picks as the automatic option others will argue is gimped and people will whine loudly later that they should get a free respec because of it. We already hear that for the automatic char creation.

It's Favor not Faction!!!!!!! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!!

Hehe, sorry, pet peeve of mine...

Me too... and its SP not mana while we are at it.

[Girevik]

Since you normally roll for D&D chars and they aren't all exactly the same stat bonuses I'm a bit surprised to hear a player saying that another 1 or 2 points on 1 or 2 stats is gimped. Very MMO like to say that, not very D&D.

Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

[joker965]

To each their own. The entire idea that a 28 pt build is gimped is just strange to me. If anyone can tell that my 14 cleric is gimped by his 28pt build then I might have a cookie for them.

Almost every MMO that I have played when I started long after the game started was somewhat dificult at the begining. Should we try to make it easier? Sure.

[oronisi]

Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

Heh, I'd call that nerd-hazing. It's completely acceptable, and funny to boot. Ease up, it's just a game....even your imaginary senario.

[Shaamis]

Let me put it in D&D perspective for you then.

You're Jonesing to play some D&D, so you answer a post on the bulletin board at the local gaming shop to join a new D&D campaign that is starting.

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM tells the players on your right and left, that since he has played with them before, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is an unfair analogy.

It would be more like:

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM informs you that the players on the right and left have played for several months in this campaign world, and are re-rolling their 10th level charcters as lvl 1, due to a reality-shift occurence from a previous adventure. Because they are starting over again, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is more accurate, because not only it shows a reward for time spent, but also allows them a reason for the items and player experience they have accumulated.

While the new player was elsewhere, IN ANOTHER GAME, spending their time that way, others have been spending their time playing this one. You should be rewarded for your loyalty.

Hence rewards in this manner.

There should be more incremental rewards, and maybe different rewards, but they started down this road, and they will have to make hard decisions to change their course.

I worked my butt off for the 1750 favor, it wasn't easy, but I felt like I made a great accomplishment when I got it, and I don't want to see someone who has played this game for a week, get it handed to them.

Call me selfish, and whatever you want, but I earned it, and I think others should have to earn it as well.

[Ithrani]

If anyone is finding leveling difficult it is because they are not familiar with the PnP rules. Feats are nearly all straight from the books, there are modifications on a few due to the real time combat and lack of PnP combat tactics. Otherwise leveling up is just about the easiest thing to do in the game. Knowing the rules is a huge help in getting started and an even bigger advantage at early levels and being new to the game. Any gamer who doesn't really know PnP rules or where to find them must only be a PC/console gamer and doesn't RP at all. If you never Rp'ed your not a well versed gamer. I personally do not have sympathy for anyone who comes playing a game named DnD Online and doesn't know the rules at all, unless they are willing to go the step necessary and read the information. There are plenty of guides, builds, and info all here on the DDO site including a fairly updated compendium with all the new enhancements, feats, spells. And there are PnP rules post on both Wizards site and www.d20srd.org Everything you need to know about the basics of the game are on those pages and here. So if you feel like your being oppressed at levels 1-5 this game is not for you; I started last year before alot of the bigger changes took place and early levels were easy, but I was also well prepared. And on a last note favor is not a deterrent, it is a choice. You want a Drow work for it, they are a +2 level adjustment in PnP so a level 1 drow fighter is a level 3 character. Thats why you work for it if you want it, and as others have said 400 favor is a cake walk, you can either repeat early quest up to elite, or just run the gamut of quest and before level 10 you will have 400 favor.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That is an unfair analogy.

It would be more like:

You show up for the first night when everyone is rolling up new characters. The DM informs you that the players on the right and left have played for several months in this campaign world, and are re-rolling their 10th level charcters as lvl 1, due to a reality-shift occurence from a previous adventure. Because they are starting over again, they can roll four dice and pick the best three for their new characters' stats. You, however, are new, so you only get to roll three dice.

That is more accurate, because not only it shows a reward for time spent, but also allows them a reason for the items and player experience they have accumulated.

While the new player was elsewhere, IN ANOTHER GAME, spending their time that way, others have been spending their time playing this one. You should be rewarded for your loyalty.

Yikes that would be a horrible DM, I'd walk out. In a PnP game favoratism doesn't make any sense at all.

Here its just a method to make you waste your time grinding, its a sales pitch to keep you busy, nothing more. It makes no sense, the OP is correct that it is unfair. And that's coming from someone with two 1750s and who still plays 28pt builds because I don't think it makes that much difference.

[Shaamis]

Yikes that would be a horrible DM, I'd walk out. In a PnP game favoratism doesn't make any sense at all.

Here its just a method to make you waste your time grinding, its a sales pitch to keep you busy, nothing more. It makes no sense, the OP is correct that it is unfair. And that's coming from someone with two 1750s and who still plays 28pt builds because I don't think it makes that much difference.

personally I would walk out too, but I didnt say it was fair, just that he painted an unfair picture of a PnP/DDO comparison.

To analyze the definition of a "grind" vs. "playing the game" is simply one you do it with a smile on your face, the other is with a scowl. The moment you do not like leveling your character, it becomes a "grind". at that point in time, you should stop, but so many of us think that the prize (level, favor, items, recognition) is worth it.

Of course DDO is a time sink! Turbine is not doing this for charity's sake, or our monthly fees would = $0.00/month. Since people whole-heartedly will play this game for 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week, Turbine has to put lengthy taskks in your way to keep you playing. the only way I see getting away from timesinks, would be limiting the amount of time you can play each character a month. Can you imagine the outcry then?

As an aside, I pay $15/month, which is cheaper than the $30 per PnP expansion books they have been putting out recently. This game is cheaper than that by far, and don't say the value of the books get better over time, they do not. I had the copy of Deities and Demigods (mint condition), with the Cthullu and Melnibonean (Elric:Stormbringer) Mythos, and it sold on Ebay for $50.

I remember when 2nd edition came out, the reasoning behind that was ".....you don't have to carry 13 sourcebooks around!" just the PHB, DMG and Monster manual, in a binder format!

What a bunch of &^$%^

[Girevik]

personally I would walk out too, ...

So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

[efreet5]

As far as I'm concerned 28 pt toons are not gimped that significantly. Yes, I've unlocked 32 pt builds for myself, but many of the good players I know still have several 28 pt toons which they refuse to reroll for various reasons and most of them are very good toons. The biggest difference between toons is the players skill and while a 32 pt fighter might have more hp/str/etc. it won't mean a thing if he doesnt' know what he's doing, while a 28 pt toon could played by a skilled player would have little or no problems.

As for the grind...Dude, the first time I went through everything leveling up I had a blast. The first time I did Stormcleave and I saw a hill giant running at me I was all ready to run . Also, if you're a powergamer like me, the 1750 favor shouldn't be that big of a problem when you run out of content after a few weeks. It just forces you to do all those quests you skipped out on. Plus, getting 1750 is SO much easier now that Gianthold is around with that extra ~240 favor. If you don't want to tolerate getting 32 pt builds through favor, then don't, dont' complain that it's too hard when in actuality it has gotten A LOT easier and will continue to get easier as time goes on.

[Shaamis]

So, you would both walk out in PnP, yet you can't agree with the original poster's statement that "the "unlocking characters" bit is a huge deterrent for many players"?

If you wouldn't put up with it in PnP, why is it a good idea for the developers to treat new players that way in DDO?

PnP and DDO are not the same, that's why. The MMO players philosophy is "get it now, beat it a second later, and move on" but myself (not speaking for other PnP players), I want to savor the experience, earn our XP/items/benefits, and reap the benefits of our hard labor, BEFORE moving on to the next game (MMO or PnP). In order for teh investment of an MMO to survive, it has to maintain the interest of it's players, by hook, or by crook.

If you give people things that earlier players worked hard to get, what's the point? where does it stop? Might as well have a weapon shop where every weapon you could ever want is available, for free. When the players that get 32-point characters for free get bored, they will want more stuff for free.

There have been so many threads about the 28/32 point build, it's crazy. the difference between a 32 point build, and a 28 point build, is shown below:

28 Point build: 32 point build:
Str: 17 Str: 18
Dex:13 Dex:14
Con:12 Con:12
Int:10 Int:10
Wis:8 Wis:8
Cha:12 Cha:12

The addition of two +1 tomes would make the difference up. If you think a 28 point build is gimping a character for the REST of his existence, you are sadly mistaken. My main is a 28 point Dwarven dual -pick wielder, his stats are:

Str: 30
Dex: 22
Con: 22
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

I do just fine. I also have a pleathora of 32 point builds, that will do just as fine, not better.