Dual Wield build with a 28 pt build

[Mogrim]

Hello. I am new to DDO and all the builds or characters I would like to play seem to be nerfed unless you have enough favor for 32 pt build. Saying this I would like to see if I can put together a fighter or fighter/hybrid that can dual wield without being too gimpy. I don't have Drow, and would like to see if there is something reasonably viable without 32pt or drow. Plus, since I am new, please break it down without all the abbreviations that are normal to long time players. My thanks in advance for any help forthcoming.

[D'rin]

What type of dual wielder do you want. Strength bases, dex based or little of both? Do you want to do stat damage more or straight up dps? These are things you are going to need to figure out before anyone can give you a descent answer.

[Mogrim]

I would be going more str based and more straight up DPS. A variety of races would be nice, but I understand if I am more bound to certain races. I would be looking at just enough dex to get by.

[D'rin]

To get the highest lvl currently available of twf feats you will need a base dex of 17. Since you have said you are just starting out I will assume tomes are not available to you. This means you are going to have to start at least with a 15 dex for the first two twf feats and add in 2 of your lvl up stat points into dex. This will limit what your starting stats will be. Once upon a time superior twf was listed in the compendium but was removed. Its dex requirement was 19 so if you want to prepare yourself for the future then you will need to be able to hit a base dex of 19. Since you are going to need a high dex elf or drow is a good choice. Dwarfs always make good damage dealers. Both races have nice enhancements for weapons. Dwarves I like a little better since you also get a bonus with handaxes for the off hand. Figure if you go really min/max with an elf you could have

str 18 +2 lvls +3 enhancements+2 tome +5 item= 30
dex 16 +1 lvl +4tiem +1 enhancement= 22 or 24 with +5 item and +2 enhancment
con 12 +4item = 16
int 8
wis 8
cha 8

put to lvl up stat points into str and one into dex and you are set for greater twf. Now you could drop str to allow for better stats all around but if you want max dps then take str to 18.

human you could drop str to 17 since they can put a point into str by way of human adaptability. so your starting stats could look like
str 17 +1 human adaptability+2 lvls +3 enhancement +2 tome+5 item= 30 start with 18 and a +6 item and you hit a 32
dex 16 +1 lvl + 5 item= 22
con 13 + human adaptability +4 item for 18
int8
wis 8
cha 8

Dwarven version
str 18+2lvls +3 enhancment + 2 tome +5 item= 30
dex 16 +1 lvl up +4 item = 20
con 12 +2 enhancement +4 item= 18
int 8
wis 8
cha6

now the adavantage you get with elves is +2 attack and damage with longswords but nothing for the off hand. Dwarves get +2 attack and damage with axes including handaxes in the off hand. Also if you take toughness dwarves can get 50 more hitpoints due to enhancements. Elves get better saves vs. enchantment spells while dwarves can get a +5 verses all spells.

your feats are going to be assuming elf or dwarf. With human you get one more feat at start.

1st lvl twf, weapon focuse slashing most likely
2ndlvl choice
3rd toughness
4th weapon specialization slashing
5th
6th improved twf iron will(since your will save will suck)
7th
8th improved critical slashing
9th choice
10th greater weapon focus slashing
11th
12th greater twf, greater weapon specialization slashing.
13th
14th choice.

The choices are up to you depending on what you want to do. You could add in bludgeoning for more weapon options. Power attack for more damage on trash mobs. Stunning blow to take out casters. Or ones that will increase your saving throws since they are going to be pretty bad.

Another option to look at is a str based ranger. All of your twf feats you get for free without the dex requirement. Good ranged combat skills. Nice buff spells such as resistance of 30, barkskin, freedom of movment etc. If you look at my 1rogue/13 ranger dwarf his stats are as follows.
str 17 +3 lvls +2 tome + 4 item= 26
dex 15 + 2 ranger+ 1 tome+ 6 item= 24
con 13 + 1 tome + 4item = 18
int 14 +1 tome + 5 item=20
wis 10 +1 tome + item=16
cha 6 +4 item when needed.
this is a 32 point build but could be modified by dropping the str,dex or con. Dex would be my most likely since he sits at 306 hitpoints right now. Gol posted some good dwarven str builds as has gren they may be really hard to find though. malachi stormlight had a really good twf dwarven fighter called the tesyus build that was complete machine. I think you can google them and may be able to find them that way not sure though.

[Mogrim]

In regards to the ranger, would it be feasable to go 4 levels in fighter, then go ranger? Plus do I NEED to sink all those points into str starting off? Would it be better to go to only 16 str? and 16 dex? Then put some points into int for combat expertise and improved trip? Just asking mostly if I have to get to 30ish str endgame. My other question is this, should I use a Khopesh?

[D'rin]

Certainly you can go 4 lvls of fighter. Remember though at the current lvl cap the best ranger feats are at lvl 11. That is when you get greater two weapon fighting and precise/improved precise shot. I will also say that the ranger enhancements are not as good as I would like to see. Rangers do not get the toughness enhancements that the other melee types get. There boosts are good only if you are a trap monkey on top of being a combatant. The favor enemey attack and damage enhancements are really nice. I would probablly go 2-3 lvls of fighter now and the rest after the cap goes up. You could also add in a splash of either barb for faster movement and the occassional rage or pally for +1 saves and ac. I would most like stay away from the pally lvls since it means you then have to bump up your cha if you take more than 1 lvl of pally. 4 lvls of fighter gives you fighters str 1, 3 feats and access to weapon spec.

You definilty do not have to go with an 18 str. If you drop your str you loose +1 tohit and damage end game. This is certainly not game breaking. I generally don't like min/maxing a character to much. If you take the lvls of figher you will also get fighter str 1 to make up the drop in str at the beginning. And since you are going ranger you would not have to put a stat point into dex to get the greater twf later on.

Kopesh is certainly the best one handed weapon in the game. If you have a good stash of them then yes I would. Especially something to consider if you go human. If you are going elf or dwarf then you are loosing out on the racial enhancement for +2 to hit and damage with either longsword or axes. I will say its alot easier to get dwarven axes and longswords off the auction house than it is kopeshes. I have 2 +5 elelmental dwarven axes non race restricted, 1 rr +5 elemental dwarven axe of pure good, and 1 non rr +5 elemental dwarven axe of pure good. I also have a like amount of hand axes for the off hand. Now this is not from looting like crazy. I bought these off of the auction house and never paid more than maybe 3-400000gp for the best ones. You won't even see the starting bid on a +4 elemental kopesh for that much. So you can usually get much better weapons if you don't use the kopesh.

As for combat expertise and improve trip. I am looking at respecting in CE at some point on my ranger. With it I will be able to hit over 50 AC without any lvls of fighter for tower shield. Also if you have improved trip and go dwarven you have the enhancements for dwarven strategy to improve it. Also is you get a weapon that modifies your trip DC then you can still get the bonus even if it is in your off hand. Also when you go to trip you get 2 rolls to trip one with each hand. Again I am looking at including this in my build latter on.

[Mogrim]

Thanks for the input D'rin. I am playing a fighter that will be taking some splash levels in barb right now, just to get a handle on things and perhaps get some gear that I could use for a dual wielding fighter as well. I know in the PnP version you get the -4 while not using a light weapon in the offhand. Does that make a HUGE difference endgame? A guild member mentioned he thought that you could dual wield a bastard sword and long sword with only a -2 is this true? (also for Dwarven axe and battle axe) I am finding that I would like to make a human, but that they are definitely limited compared to the elf or dwarf due to enhancements. Fiddling around with a builder I found on the forums I have also found that trying for CE without a 32 point build makes your character not as powerful endgame in the STR department. Here are some starting stats I am playing with let me know what you think:

Human (Improved Trip, all fighter levels)
starting stats
str 16
Dex 16
con 12
int 12
wis 8
cha 8

Dwarven (same as above)
starting stats
str 16
dex 16
con 13
int 13
wis 8
cha 6

Elven (same as above)

str 16
dex 17
con 12
int 12
wis 8
cha 8

Thanks ahead of time for any input.

[D'rin]

All of the above stats look good. With a 12 int all you need is a +1 int tome and you are set to get combat expertise. Heck if you build on Ghallanda I may even have one for you. Also its not that much of a grind to get 400 favor to unlock drow. You could start a little better in stats
str 17 or 16
dex 16 or 17
con 12
int 13
wis8
cha 10.

also they get spell resistance which is pretty nice. Now you do loose the slashing weapons with a drow and pick up rapier and short sword which does lead to a good main off hand combo. The base damage is not great but you will critical alot with the rapier. So you could just ignore the racial weapons and use the kopesh.

As for weapons your off hand weapons have to be small which means longswords, battle axes etc are a -4 penalty for both hands then. This can be a problem in high end if you want to turn on power attack or CE. You would then be at a -9 to hit. Your off hand is better to have it be a light weapon. If you want to use the kopesh in the lead hand get a bursting kukri for the off hand and then you will crit on a 15+. With axes especially with dwarves you are looking at descent base damage for main and off hand d10/d6 respectfully. Also you can the +2 racial bonus for both the lead and off hand. My dwarven ranger will crit for around 100points on the main hand with power attack on and around 70+ in the off hand.

[Mogrim]

Thanks for the input. I see that most people tend to lean towards dwarves. With good reason. I am also toying with a character that goes spring attack route instead of CE ->improved trip. One last question, should I use my small amount of skill points on intimidate? And why? Thanks again, I am pretty close to the build I want to make.

Oh, and I am on Kypher.... hope I spelled that right.

[D'rin]

You really only want to raise your intimidate skill if you can handle the aggro you get. It is an area affect so if you hit a group of 5 you need to be able to either turtle up and have the AC/hitpoints/saves to deal with the aggro or be able to crowd control or kill them quickly. Now if you go dwarven mostly fighter you could hit the high 300s for hitpoints maybe even crest 400. With those kind of hitpoints you should be able to survive the attention you brought on yourself.
Spring attack is nice now that the mob AI has changed and they run like crazy all over the place. The main problem I have with spring attack is you have to take dodge and mobility. Dodge is ok but mobility is only good if you are tumbling. So it is of limited usefullness.

[Mogrim]

I agree, but it isn't turbines fault. WOTC designed the feat as a watered down version of spring attack (mobility that is), a kind of stepping stone to spring attack as you were. My question is, I could get top end strength without CE and improved trip, but I could get spring attack. Which is better? Would I find Improved trip to be a better option in the long run? Or will the chaos of melee give me a spring attack advantage? And +1 tomes of intelligence are a lot harder to come by than you may lead me to believe. Thanks again for your prompt posting and all your advice.

[D'rin]

You could always start with the spring attack route and if you get a +1 tome then take CE later on. I don't find a +1 to hit and damage worth the drop in other abilities and feats. Unless you are one trick pony like a damage dealing barb which has no other uses absolutly maxed str is not a huge issue.
CE and improved trip are nice, but not essential. I have characters with both and one that don't. Improved trip is really nice if you are going to solo or main tank.
Be out of touch for 4 days or so, hope to see the build when I get back or I'll answer any questions then.

[Mogrim]

I went with the following build:

LG Elf

16 str
17 dex
12 con
12 int
8 wis
8 cha

He will only have with a +6 con tome 282 hp at 14th level. No he isn't going to have the **** load of hp that a dwarf would have, but I didn't want a cookie cutter. I will be going with the longsword obviously and using the elven enhancements with that. Plus I think I will take the armour mastery enhancements to give him the bigger dex bonus in mithral fullplate. I figure that I will go spring attack as you suggested until I can get my hands on a +1 int tome, then I will most likely switch to ce-> improved trip. I also plan on keeping around some short swords as well as kukris and hand axes. I probably will also dual wield long swords from time to time depending on the situation. I think he will be a blast and do pretty good. With a +6 str item he will top out at 28 str, and 30 with a rage spell. If you have any more advice, let me know. I am hoping to have him to level 6 or 7 by end of month. I will post his stats then as well.

PS: I am going a non intimidate route, I felt that the spot and balance were more important.