Attn: Sarlona RAIDers

[Kronik]

ME: SoS! ****, can't use it. Honey (my wife), can your pally use it? NO? OK. Friend, Can you? NO? Ok. Hmmm. No current friends in party. Ok. Anybody interested in SoS.."

Teufel
Semper Fi

What if you have other friends in the party? Or a half-friend you know from way back. I guess you gotta really be in tight with you for that common sense thing to start kickin in huh?

Too much drama for me...

[Ciaran]

So, punish the world. I didn't get what I wanted so now all of you will pay. Please just let people know that you would not do the same for them when they out of the kindness of their own heart allow you to take a piece of loot without having to offer up the shirt off your back. If everyone was able to recall the forum discussions and see that you would make them offer up an equal item then I am sure they would not let you roll on the loot they can't use ,not because you weren't the right class but because you would not do the same for others.

I could have swore VCA had a guild full of level headed people. This is not the type of person I expected to run across from this guild. Greed before need I guess.

Marlak

Yvonne is a level-headed member of our guild and she is extremely fair and giving. Beyond that she is a friend and the least greedy person I know. She constantly heals and raises us when we die doing some hair-brained antic or another and never asks for scrolls or gold. She has given away more items to guildies (new members and old alike) than she's traded for. Same thing goes for PUGs (who didn't behave like idiots in a quest, of course).

Your assessment of her is totally wrong and totally out of line. One would hope a fellow player would show enough tact and restraint to not base their opinion of another person (and by extension, a guild) on a simple comment in which it is clear that there's a misunderstanding. She's saying the same thing (in her own way) that the OP clarified in a later post to you and you said you saw his POV and reneged on your earlier statements. Considering she's saying the same thing, I hope you have the maturity and humility to do the same here.

[todd31]

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els...but I bet they got something on them I would like...

You asked where I got my earlier statement from and here it is quoted. You want an equal item to raid loot? Come on. You only after the fact stated that you would take something lesser. At least if you are going to accuse people of misquoting you read back and make sure you didn't say what you claim you didn't say.

Just remember, most would let the group roll on the item that is useless to you if friends, guildies or family were not in the pug. You would make them trade with you though and not put it to a roll? That's pretty lame. Even if it is a lesser item, the thing binds and will be wasted. You are not a very nice person in my opinion to have this approach to loot.

Also in regards to your officers knowing people, they know me as I have grouped with them a bunch on Aerenal. They know me as Marlik, Marlak, Marlika, Marliki, a leader of Clan Doombringer. That is why I can say that I know a lot of you and this attitude is not one that I would expect from VCA.

Marlak

[todd31]

Yvonne is a level-headed member of our guild and she is extremely fair and giving. Beyond that she is a friend and the least greedy person I know. She constantly heals and raises us when we die doing some hair-brained antic or another and never asks for scrolls or gold. She has given away more items to guildies (new members and old alike) than she's traded for. Same thing goes for PUGs (who didn't behave like idiots in a quest, of course).

Your assessment of her is totally wrong and totally out of line. One would hope a fellow player would show enough tact and restraint to not base their opinion of another person (and by extension, a guild) on a simple comment in which it is clear that there's a misunderstanding. She's saying the same thing (in her own way) that the OP clarified in a later post to you and you said you saw his POV and reneged on your earlier statements. Considering she's saying the same thing, I hope you have the maturity and humility to do the same here.

Lmao. You are just way to funny to defend her when I based everything I wrote on her words. If she wishes to put her stance on a subject in a public forum then she will have to deal with the interpretations of her words. I quoted what she said above in the previous post and you saw my response. She stated that she would trade the item for an equal item. She never said once that she would put it up as others would do for a roll.

Please don't come in here and try protecting your guildie who is only receiving responses to her skewed point of view. Let her deal with it herself. I mean I appreciate the character reference and all but come on. She wants to trade her useless to her raid loot for something that is just as good and that she can use instead of putting it to a roll for others that would allow her to roll on their loot should the rolls be reversed? The OP said he would put it up for a roll if friends , family or guildies didn't need it. She just stated it was for trade for equal loot in her post that I responded to. In my opinion, keep her in your guild groups and don't let her pug, she will make herself look bad if she tries to trade raid loot to a raid group when most people feel they would put it up for a roll and expect that level headed people would do the same for them.

If she has a different outlook to this and just hasn't shared it yet then tell her to please state it. At the end of the day it is her loot and she can do what she wishes with it. With the stance she took on trading it for equal loot she left a very poor impression of her self on me.

Marlak

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

You are just way to funny to defend her when I based everything I wrote on her words.

Maybe they got a equal item to trade...it may not seem so to some one els(e)...but I bet they got something on them I would like...

ok..you quoted me...but did you read me?
the part you quoted ...about something not seeming to be equal value to somone else?
if i can't use an item then it is worth base value to me...or equivilent stat item (minus the extras) or something...might even be something the owner cannot use...therefore worth base value to them...perhaps.
why is this so hard.

If, however, it is stongly desired by someone that acted the fool, treated others with a lack of respect, or fluffed his/her ego, unendingly...

well...
it might be worth quite a bit more.

I don't ever want to feel obligated to hand over one of my rewards...to anyone...I don't feel...deserved it...for whatever reason.

a guildie gets it free. a worthy ally the same.
an adversary unknowingly, reviled by all?
that individual has to come up with some good reason it should not stay in my guild.

This is how I feel about my loot.

And my guildies?
This is how they are. We defend eachother. We support each other. We run raids together. We share our loot. We enjoy each other's company.
And we stick together...

Ciaran, I told you...

I know you came here because you will not let a guildie go down in flames.
I hate that you had to come back to defend me. But I love you for it.
It does no good. He has an opinion about me that will not change based on fact, intervention of others or any valid argument.
I will follow all the advice I got on this attack on my person and will do what I know I have to do.

[soupertc]

all I can say is WOW!!! This has gotten a bit out of hand!!!! VCA are good peeps, Clan Doombringer are good peeps too. I've run with both of ur guilds......alot. I myself would let the group roll as a whole....even if I myself could use it if I were in a PUG. Guild or buddies....if I could use it take it....if not the others roll. Would I ever trade or sell.....nahhhh probably not. Do I disagree with those who do.....ummmmm kinda, but it's their $15 dollars ya know. Tellin someone how to do Raid Loot is almost as bad as tellin someone how to play their Toon.

Good Luck all.

[hinura]

And this is why I never ever go on pug raids on my cleric---well there are a few exceptions to guilds that I would go with but I would never in my wildest dreams try to auction off loot I couldn't use just because it appeared in my chest.

[todd31]

You were flamed because of a statement you made and then denied making.

I am done posting in response to you.

Marlak

ok..you quoted me...but did you read me?
the part you quoted ...about something not seeming to be equal value to somone else?
if i can't use an item then it is worth base value to me...or equivilent stat item (minus the extras) or something...might even be something the owner cannot use...therefore worth base value to them...perhaps.
why is this so hard.

If, however, it is stongly desired by someone that acted the fool, treated others with a lack of respect, or fluffed his/her ego, unendingly...

well...
it might be worth quite a bit more.

I don't ever want to feel obligated to hand over one of my rewards...to anyone...I don't feel...deserved it...for whatever reason.

a guildie gets it free. a worthy ally the same.
an adversary unknowingly, reviled by all?
that individual has to come up with some good reason it should not stay in my guild.

This is how I feel about my loot.

And my guildies?
This is how they are. We defend eachother. We support each other. We run raids together. We share our loot. We enjoy each other's company.
And we stick together...

Ciaran, I told you...

I know you came here because you will not let a guildie go down in flames.
I hate that you had to come back to defend me. But I love you for it.
It does no good. He has an opinion about me that will not change based on fact, intervention of others or any valid argument.
I will follow all the advice I got on this attack on my person and will do what I know I have to do.

[Ciaran]

You were flamed because of a statement you made and then denied making.

I am done posting in response to you.

Marlak

No, she got flamed because you refuse to try and let her clarify what she means and you refuse to listen to someone who actually groups with this person regularly and has been doing so since she joined our guild and knows what they are talking about.

You know nothing about her, save what you have incorrectly gleaned from a post of hers on the forums. You refusing to listen says nothing about her personally and everything about you.

You sound like you have some sort of grudge or axe to grind, but all you are really doing is creating sparks. I suggest you try to actually listen to other people when they have something to say about a friend. I didn't come here to stir up strife -- hell, you and I have grouped together in the past and I found the experience to be enjoyable -- I came here because I saw that a friend, (first and foremost, that she's a guildie is a distant second) was being misunderstood and flamed. I tried to help by giving some FACTS about Yvonne, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears.

By all means, carry on if you must. At the end of the day you've accomplished nothing but leaving a bad taste in several people's mouths.

Oh, and don't presume to tell me not to come to the defense of a friend. I do what I want when I feel it is necessary and I make no apologies for it.

[todd31]

No, she got flamed because you refuse to try and let her clarify what she means and you refuse to listen to someone who actually groups with this person regularly and has been doing so since she joined our guild and knows what they are talking about.

You know nothing about her, save what you have incorrectly gleaned from a post of hers on the forums. You refusing to listen says nothing about her personally and everything about you.

You sound like you have some sort of grudge or axe to grind, but all you are really doing is creating sparks. I suggest you try to actually listen to other people when they have something to say about a friend. I didn't come here to stir up strife -- hell, you and I have grouped together in the past and I found the experience to be enjoyable -- I came here because I saw that a friend, (first and foremost, that she's a guildie is a distant second) was being misunderstood and flamed. I tried to help by giving some FACTS about Yvonne, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears.

By all means, carry on if you must. At the end of the day you've accomplished nothing but leaving a bad taste in several people's mouths.

Oh, and don't presume to tell me not to come to the defense of a friend. I do what I want when I feel it is necessary and I make no apologies for it.

Look, your guildie is not being misunderstood by me. Her position on loot was made quite clear.

This has all started to escalate to places neither side will wish to go.

Your leader has contacted me over this. I would suggest you drop this right now and let us deal with this as there is much more at stake than a couple people with hurt feelings.

Marlak

[Ciaran]

This isn't directed at any one person as I'm just musing out loud, but I'm shocked this thread has stayed open this long -- I thought threads that said "Do not group with XYZ" will not be tolerated and that seems to be what this thread is (or has become, anyway).

I'm just saying this topic is divisive in nature (or has the potential to become divisive very easily and quickly) and why it's been left open makes me ponder if some lines aren't just drawn arbitrarily and next thing you know, you've stepped over one...

[todd31]

This isn't directed at any one person as I'm just musing out loud, but I'm shocked this thread has stayed open this long -- I thought threads that said "Do not group with XYZ" will not be tolerated and that seems to be what this thread is (or has become, anyway).

I'm just saying this topic is divisive in nature (or has the potential to become divisive very easily and quickly) and why it's been left open makes me ponder if some lines aren't just drawn arbitrarily and next thing you know, you've stepped over one...

There have been much worse that have gone on for far longer.

Marlak

[Ciaran]

Look, your guildie is not being misunderstood by me. Her position on loot was made quite clear.

This has all started to escalate to places neither side will wish to go.

Your leader has contacted me over this. I would suggest you drop this right now and let us deal with this as there is much more at stake than a couple people with hurt feelings.

Marlak

Fine. I stand by what I have said and I take full responsibility for it. Neither of our guilds should have hard feelings towards the other as this is just between the three of us.

[Ciaran]

There have been much worse that have gone on for far longer.

Marlak

Yep, which just proves my point about the lines seeming arbitrary.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

To Teufel Hunden,
I apologize for tuning your thread posted in order to fin like minded and un-like minded got turned into The I Hate Yvonne Club...
Honestly, The membership has been dwindiling lately and it needs a new leader.

I also appologize for offending those who disagree with me. It is highly unlikely that I will ever group with people where I am not wanted, so if you join my guilds raid, I will politely make my excuses in officer chat and wish them well.

I hope you all get the raid loot you want. Me?
I just won some last weekend and, true to form, will support raiding in my guild, but will not roll on anything (or accept it if the update comes through before then and the Gods of Lucky Blind Die Rolls grant me one) for at least a month.

You may call me greedy, this is your right.

It is my opinion I should have the right to refuse grouping with those I have had it with.

It is my opinion that if I pull any loot I should have some say in where and to whom it goes.

Our guild regularly runs raids.
I have been with the guild since November and am not a founder.
For a time we were runing up to 4 a weekend.
Recently that has slacked off a bit but we are recovering.

Raid loot I have received
February-KDS> because I was the only light armor wearer in the party able to pull something from the chest, it was awarded without roll.
April-C of the S C> awarded to me without roll when I showed interest after months of raiding and refusing to roll on a single item. Not rolling was an attempt to assure all other regular raiding members and new member had a chance to get some, get some.
August-dragon boots>won the die roll, again, after months of raiding and refusing to roll on a single item.

While the first two are blatant examples of the kindness of the guild, and the third a lucky roll, it does demonstrate that I don't often demonstrate greed above need. But If anyone wishes to have the opinion that I am all about getting my greasy little hands on all the loots loots loots...well, that is your right.
It is my arrogant opinion, that none of my characters need raid loot to be playable. They just aren't build that way. It is nice to have, but not game ending SuX0r not to have.

[Teufel_Hunden]

Well, I don't hate you Yvonne.

I am disappointed that the thread turned into what it did. It was not my intention for anybody to be flamed, nor was it my intention for such division. My ONLY intention was to find out with whom *I* personally should not ask to join a raid. The only thing that should have been said is either:
- Hi, my name is Looter McRollsalot, I do not wish to have you in my party. My names are Iliketoroll, Itsmyrules, Guildonly.
- Hi! My name is Lawerence VonLikeminded. You can pug with us anytime. Look for me. My names are Ilikefreeforall, and Itsyourlife O'Dowhatyouwant.

Thank you for your apology Yvonne, while not necessarily needed, was a welcome change.

For any future posters. Please, lets just smile, play our game the way we like, and if not get along, then at least be civil to one another. This from an old Jarhead who's seen to much to be bothered by trifles.

[BlueLightBandit]

Cheers to all those who posted their opinions without attacking others.

Cheers to all those who posted their beliefs about others opinions.

Cheers to all those who remained calm and level headed while particpating in such a heated discussion.

Jeers to all those who felt the need to debase other players because their views did not coincide.

It's sad the forums in general has become this way. It's sad that some people cannot accept the changes that are inevitable. It's sad that people take this game so seriously. It's sad that people are trying to exclude others from grouping them.

But that's the way some people want to play, and it is in no way my place to say anybody else is wrong. It is also in no way my place to criticize another person for their beliefs. I can stress heartily my disagreement with them, but never am I allowed to promote a personal attack on them.

To the OP, kudos for sticking your neck out there. You have a valid point. I wish you would never be excluded from playing with people just because you don't share common beliefs, however such is life, and such is an MMO. To those who agreed/disagreed... I applaud your conversation. To those who actually wrote names down, I feel sad that you have now made your world a smaller place.

If we pug as a guild, everyone is welcome to join. If you get a raid item you cannot use and you think it's best to keep it and sell it at a vendor, fine, that's your choice.

The simple fact is that there is nothing the party leader can do to change that. I hope people understand that very few of the changes Turbine has implemented so far (human versatility, spell points, rogue evasion, new enhancement, etc.) have turned out that bad. Sure some people don't like it, but in the end the game moves on, and the posters on the forum find new things to complain about.

It's just too bad things get personal around here.

[todd31]

It is exactly this type of thread that is needed to get your finger on the pulse of the effects of the new raid loot mechanic. You now know how serious and committed people are to this change and how committed folks are to making sure people do the right things in pugs.

If you have a skewed version of how raid loot works and it is not a popular stance then it is better that you let people know up front. Some of the views that have been posed here will cause a pug a lot more grief at the end of a pug raid. Try spending a couple hours in the Titan raid with a pug to have someone offer up an item they cant use to the highest bidder and then choose to broker it when everyone is mad. Sure you can do what you will with your loot but come on, represent all that is good with you and your guild and do the right thing. If you think the right thing is hoarding a useless to you item that other pug raiders really need with the intention of trading it to the highest bidder or just selling it then you are probably just being a jerk and trying to stick it to the party that you are with and deserve blacklisting and a boot from the party.

I will say this again, make your loot intentions known up front and let the party decide if they wish to keep you. Don't sit there, roll on an item that someone else puts up to a roll and then tell the group that you will only trade your item. This looks bad on yourself as a person, makes your guild look bad and will get you on so many blacklists that every party you join someone will bail on you because of your server reputation. Again folks, in a pug do the right thing. The right thing is let a group know up front your loot beliefs or go with the popular loot opinion once the raid is over. Don't expect to roll on someone elses loot when they were kind enough to offer it up and then expect to get a trade on yours.

As far as personal attacks are concerned, I agree..... I was in the wrong with the flat out attack but my opinion on this topic and the poster that I offended still stands. Maybe she would wish to quote herself and announce a retraction, clarify her view or maybe her statement was bottom line her feeling on the subject. Any way she flat out said that she would look for an equal trade, she knows that someone must have something she needs and in my opinion this is a terrible approach to raid loot in a pug.

I chose to post a follow up to this because it seems that this viewpoint to this argument needs to be explained and I am the one that posed it so....... here I am. This is a great way in my opinion to get to the bottom of this subject, heated or not. I have sat in meetings in the real world where people were screaming at each other and the outcome was that a lot was accomplished and the team was stronger for working though it with high emotions. If you are gonna post in a public forum it is my opinion that you should have thick skin and be able to defend your position. Again, I am sorry that there was a comment made about the caliber of player that VCA accepts but the simple fact is, if you have an opinion to put out you better be ready to deal with the backlash that you may get especially if your opinion is not the popular one. With that being said I will soon take my leave.

I ask that everything in regards to past posts go to a private discussion between myself and the VCA leader from here on out. If you have a different opinion on what I said above, please share it but the past issues need to be dealt with by myself and VCA from here on out in a private forum. Feel free to pick apart my stance on the loot and how it should be dealt with as that is what this post turned into.

Marlak

[Teufel_Hunden]

And knowing is half the battle!

GEE EYE JOE................

[Kronik]

But that's the way some people want to play, and it is in no way my place to say anybody else is wrong. It is also in no way my place to criticize another person for their beliefs. I can stress heartily my disagreement with them, but never am I allowed to promote a personal attack on them.

To the OP, kudos for sticking your neck out there. You have a valid point. I wish you would never be excluded from playing with people just because you don't share common beliefs, however such is life, and such is an MMO. To those who agreed/disagreed... I applaud your conversation. To those who actually wrote names down, I feel sad that you have now made your world a smaller place.

Well said BlueLight. No one will ever agree on a right way to do things.

You say that you wish that people would never be excluded from playing with people because you don't share common beliefs. This idea is very possible...its called compromise. You must give a little and take a little in order for this to work. My point was simply to listen to the person who is generous enough to take you on a raid and respect their rules. It is sad to me that some people are not willing to bend from their beliefs and would rather not play. While this statement in itself is a bit judgmental, it is not my opinion, but rather a truth. It is true that if we all bend a bit from what we want to do, then we can all coincide in a much more peaceful and happy game world.

So you don't get to get your loot the way you want! Is that really that big of a deal that you are willing to pass on possible new friendships and miss a possible raid you have been wanting to run. Heck for all we know in advance, you might end up pulling a Vorp or Uber in one of the non raid chests. What is sad is we are here arguing over loot, when it comes so plentiful nowadays.

That being said I will rescind my wish to not want to play with anyone for any loot related issues. If you see me on and need a good player to help, just Haller at me!!!!!!!