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[unbongwah]

ELF ROGUE. TWF. Int based. Vistani. Throwing. Melee over ranged (dont want many or any ranged feats) Loves the idea of sneak attack. Not sold on assassin.

Okay some questions and comments:

• Pure rogue or is multiclassing acceptable?
• Why INT based on an elf? For throwing daggers you'll really want Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise (STWE) feat, which is keyed on DEX unless you're an Alchemist. And trap skills have a lot more to do with gear, buffs, etc. than whether INT is your primary stat.
• "Throwing. Melee over ranged (dont want many or any ranged feats)" - do you mean you want a build with both melee & throwing DPS favoring melee? VKF provides Quick Draw for free, but you need a lot more than that to make a credible throwing dagger build.
• "Not sold on assassin" - even if not using Assassinate, Assassin has a lot of synergies with VKF, including Lethality's +1 stacking crit multiplier.

[SpartanKiller13]

ELF ROGUE. TWF. Int based. Vistani. Throwing. Melee over ranged (dont want many or any ranged feats) Loves the idea of sneak attack. Not sold on assassin.

Is build going going melee without assassin?

Also what are success with traps without going mech?

Lastly, compare this setup to going with a mech/vistani? (unless thats exactly what we are building

Remember this is a starter player, but excels at multitasking. Being OP is not the goal. Flavor is the goal, but in a way where synergies can be maximized wherever possible so he feels like he's kicking some ass and not getting roflstomped.

TY in advance!!

• VKF is good at anything with daggers.
• Mechanic is only good for thrown daggers (dagger-wise).
• Assassin is only good for melee daggers.

You don't really want to split AP between Mechanic and Assassin, I'd highly recommend picking one of those + VKF.

• Dex-max works great with TWF melee (as you don't need to worry about Harper AP or TWF feat prerequisites).
• Dex-max works great with thrown daggers (for Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise).
• Int-max works decently with Mechanic for thrown daggers, given you get Int-to-Damage at core 3 - and thus only need 3 AP into Harper for Int-to-Hit).
• Int-max works passingly with TWF melee - you need 12 AP into Harper for Int-to-Hit and Int-to-Damage, which is expensive; and you need 17 Dex for Improved TWF anyway.

Not sure what you mean by "Throwing. Melee over ranged" as throwing is inherently ranged, and TWF is inherently melee (and not throwing). A melee-specialized Vistani/Assassin Rogue will have passable ranged DPS with a throwing dagger, but if you want to build a thrower build that's a lot different than a melee build

What level is his character? And what's his goal? Does he plan on hitting 20 and TRing, or is he after a build that's strong for epics, or for raids? Does he have a Dex tome (if not, Int-based is harder).

Both VKF and Assassin have a fair amount of actives. Assassin's Trick & Execute are both excellent and easy to use, and VKF has lots of fun active attacks (and a defensive clicky to boot).

I'd recommend mostly investing in VKF, cores and T5; go Harper around level 5 (for Strategic Combat 1 & 2), and Assassin with leftovers.

I don't think you want Mechanic much for a TWF build, although some points early can help with trapping until you get some relevant gear.

Unbongwah also has a good list of questions

-------

Now if you're talking about a Int-based VKF thrower (non-TWF non-melee) than VKF/Mechanic is the way to go for a Rogue build. That would require ranged feats and be bad at melee though, which seems like the opposite of what you're asking for?

Let us know what's going on, and feel free to ask for explanations

[C-Dog]

Also what are success with traps without going mech?

Trapping relies on 3 factors - Stats (Int for Search/DD), Skills (maxed ranks), and gear (both Stat and Trapping, and relatively at-level*). If any of these are absent, then something like Mechanic can help, adding up to +3 in Search or Disable (and Open Locks, but that's rarely an issue if you're willing to reroll until you roll high).

(* Standard bonus max for 1 piece of "skill" gear is +2 over current level up to about Level 12, then +1 up to late Heroics, then at-level. However, after 10 you can start adding in Insightful, for a higher bonus. You can usually get away with letting gear upgrades slide about every 3 levels, or more if you're not running E/R.)

With an Int-build (and Int gear), you have that covered. With a pure(ish) Rogue, you have skill points out the wazoo, so "full ranks" are covered. If he has a rich uncle (ahem), proper gear isn't a problem - either via AH or help farm something, or Cannith Craft a set - Spare Hands via challenges are great too.

If you're worried that the gear may be a problem (as in Hard Core, or any fast leveling, or just forgetting to hit the bank and upgrade the gear), that's when Mechanic's +3 can cover the margin of error. Especially for a new and/or young player, where over-enthusiasm may rule the day over attention to detail, a half-dozen points in Mechanic can provide a great safety net (and Core 1 also gets Great Crossbow as a superb ranged option to start any long-distance negotiations).

Not also that many combat-Rogues need to slot both their combat gear and trapping gear on adjacent hotbars and "gear swap" to do trapping - teach your son how this works, and to remember to swap back to be ready for the next fight!

[SpartanKiller13]

If any of these are absent, then something like Mechanic can help, adding up to +3 in Search or Disable (and Open Locks, but that's rarely an issue if you're willing to reroll until you roll high).

(* Standard bonus max for 1 piece of "skill" gear is +2 over current level up to about Level 12, then +1 up to late Heroics, then at-level. However, after 10 you can start adding in Insightful, for a higher bonus. You can usually get away with letting gear upgrades slide about every 3 levels, or more if you're not running E/R.)

Also easy access to Skill Boost for +6 to all skills temporarily if you're really struggling with traps

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Okay some questions and comments:

• Pure rogue or is multiclassing acceptable?
• Why INT based on an elf? For throwing daggers you'll really want Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise (STWE) feat, which is keyed on DEX unless you're an Alchemist. And trap skills have a lot more to do with gear, buffs, etc. than whether INT is your primary stat.

Heya -- yea the synergies of the choices at first glanced sucked so I though maybe hit up this thread which has created so many great builds over the years.

-- Pure rogue. Elf for lore.

-- Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise-- He is level 6 and will not... WILL NOT reroll (I wonder where he got his willpower from.. ahemm). So... here's the thing. I have already purchased him a +8 tome for INT & DEX in the store. That's all the Mississippee Pops is buying him ==> so with stubbornness ahem I mean willpower plus + 8 INT/DEX I'm hoping it wont hurt as much if he switches to just putting the rest of his stat points into DEX (if this is what we do). I'm breaking my own rule here there's no way I would throw away level ups on my builds but with stat level ups on 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28.. there's 6 more levels ups left

• "Throwing. Melee over ranged (dont want many or any ranged feats)" - do you mean you want a build with both melee & throwing DPS favoring melee? VKF provides Quick Draw for free, but you need a lot more than that to make a credible throwing dagger build.
• "Not sold on assassin" - even if not using Assassinate, Assassin has a lot of synergies with VKF, including Lethality's +1 stacking crit multiplier.

--- (VKF provides Quick Draw for free, but you need a lot more than that to make a credible throwing dagger build.) I think he will be meleeing 80-90% of the time, with with remainder ranged. He doesnt like bows but did like throwing. I dont know what his ranged game is going to look like so ?I felt uneasy investing in ranged feats if he's not going to be using it enough to qualify the feat expenditure thats needed.

--- (Assassin has a lot of synergies with VKF) I saw that. Hence why my headache enlarged while trying to crunch out a build ~~

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

• VKF is good at anything with daggers.
• Mechanic is only good for thrown daggers (dagger-wise).
• Assassin is only good for melee daggers.

Check

You don't really want to split AP between Mechanic and Assassin, I'd highly recommend picking one of those + VKF.

• Dex-max works great with TWF melee (as you don't need to worry about Harper AP or TWF feat prerequisites).
• Dex-max works great with thrown daggers (for Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise).
• Int-max works decently with Mechanic for thrown daggers, given you get Int-to-Damage at core 3 - and thus only need 3 AP into Harper for Int-to-Hit).
• Int-max works passingly with TWF melee - you need 12 AP into Harper for Int-to-Hit and Int-to-Damage, which is expensive; and you need 17 Dex for Improved TWF anyway.

Not sure what you mean by "Throwing. Melee over ranged" as throwing is inherently ranged, and TWF is inherently melee (and not throwing). A melee-specialized Vistani/Assassin Rogue will have passable ranged DPS with a throwing dagger, but if you want to build a thrower build that's a lot different than a melee build

Thats why I couldn't decided and opted to post here. It just did not computate in my head. Wont be dex max since he didnt max dex. Got to check what he started with.

Im wondering if we should just start dipping into dex now starting at level 8 but Im not sure what he started with so.... +8 Dex tome should suffice but OUCH on the 12 ap Harper expenditure that's just too much.

"Throwing. Melee over ranged" -- Poor choice of words on my part. By ranged I meant bows. By throwing I was referring to throwing daggers.

What level is his character? And what's his goal? Does he plan on hitting 20 and TRing, or is he after a build that's strong for epics, or for raids? Does he have a Dex tome (if not, Int-based is harder).

Both VKF and Assassin have a fair amount of actives. Assassin's Trick & Execute are both excellent and easy to use, and VKF has lots of fun active attacks (and a defensive clicky to boot).

Level 6. He wants to just play and have fun. He wants to be effective -- but does not care about min/maxing per say. FUN > being absolute best.

Does he plan on hitting 20 and TRing, or is he after a build that's strong for epics, or for raids?

He's going to 30, probably stopping there on this build so epics/raids maybe reaper.

Does he have a Dex tome (if not, Int-based is harder).

Hee hee... I am well... Pops.

I'd recommend mostly investing in VKF, cores and T5; go Harper around level 5 (for Strategic Combat 1 & 2), and Assassin with leftovers.

You might just be right here.

I don't think you want Mechanic much for a TWF build, although some points early can help with trapping until you get some relevant gear.

So with the +8 tomes, and NO mechanic, and probably going (way) over on INT should more than cover any traps in the game right? If not which ones does he miss?

-------

Now if you're talking about a Int-based VKF thrower (non-TWF non-melee) than VKF/Mechanic is the way to go for a Rogue build. That would require ranged feats and be bad at melee though, which seems like the opposite of what you're asking for?

True true. I think you talked me out of INT. Great breakdown for me. TY so much Spartan! ( and unbongwah! )

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Trapping relies on 3 factors - Stats (Int for Search/DD), Skills (maxed ranks), and gear (both Stat and Trapping, and relatively at-level*). If any of these are absent, then something like Mechanic can help, adding up to +3 in Search or Disable (and Open Locks, but that's rarely an issue if you're willing to reroll until you roll high).

(* Standard bonus max for 1 piece of "skill" gear is +2 over current level up to about Level 12, then +1 up to late Heroics, then at-level. However, after 10 you can start adding in Insightful, for a higher bonus. You can usually get away with letting gear upgrades slide about every 3 levels, or more if you're not running E/R.)

Hey C-Dog! Long time no see. Nice explanation man. And makes sense. We will be running epic for sure when we get there (I rolled a fighter to run with his rogue and his friend's wizard). Reaper is possible later on.

With an Int-build (and Int gear), you have that covered. With a pure(ish) Rogue, you have skill points out the wazoo, so "full ranks" are covered. If he has a rich uncle (ahem), proper gear isn't a problem - either via AH or help farm something, or Cannith Craft a set - Spare Hands via challenges are great too.

Rich you say? The Cajun lady's got this. haha

Hmmm.. If he switches to dex now... wonder if he'll still be covered... that's a big question I have.

If you're worried that the gear may be a problem (as in Hard Core, or any fast leveling, or just forgetting to hit the bank and upgrade the gear), that's when Mechanic's +3 can cover the margin of error. Especially for a new and/or young player, where over-enthusiasm may rule the day over attention to detail, a half-dozen points in Mechanic can provide a great safety net (and Core 1 also gets Great Crossbow as a superb ranged option to start any long-distance negotiations).

Not also that many combat-Rogues need to slot both their combat gear and trapping gear on adjacent hotbars and "gear swap" to do trapping - teach your son how this works, and to remember to swap back to be ready for the next fight!

Oh yeah started discussing multi tasking from DAY ONE. But he has lots of learning to do about gear/game mechanics. We are playing it slow, esp for his friend that's brand new.

[SpartanKiller13]

Im wondering if we should just start dipping into dex now starting at level 8 but Im not sure what he started with so.... +8 Dex tome should suffice but OUCH on the 12 ap Harper expenditure that's just too much.

"Throwing. Melee over ranged" -- Poor choice of words on my part. By ranged I meant bows. By throwing I was referring to throwing daggers.

Level 6. He wants to just play and have fun. He wants to be effective -- but does not care about min/maxing per say. FUN > being absolute best.

He's going to 30, probably stopping there on this build so epics/raids maybe reaper.

True true. I think you talked me out of INT. Great breakdown for me. TY so much Spartan! ( and unbongwah! )

I wrote a bunch but it got deleted, so here's take two:

I'd recommend going Dex-max from here on out. It's not a huge loss being a few points behind (starting 14 vs 20 Dex really isn't that impactful), and high Int = lots of skill points and ability to benefit from Know the Angles in epics. From what I've heard trapping is more about gearing anyway.

I'd go majority melee-focused with TWF daggers, and run secondary throwing when cooldowns are available or as needed (stack Multitude of Missiles + Whirling Blades on top of the usual Rapid Throw & Blessed Blades = great DPS for 15s every 2 minutes). Most AP into VKF, some into Assassin. End split probably:

• 42 AP VKF - all cores, actives, full T5
• 31 AP Assassin - core 5, Sneak Attack, Dex
• 7 AP Harper - Know the Angles II (it's a pretty solid DPS buff if you have some Int/spell points laying around). Feel free to ditch this.

VKF works well with melee and ranged, with active enhancements usually giving you the active for both (vs forcing you to only pick one).

Biggest issue with hybrid melee/ranged is feats (you want like 5 melee feats and 7 ranged feats, not counting epic/destiny feats lol). I don't know what feats you have yet, but the feats I'd recommend:
(1) TWF
(3) Point-Blank Shot
(6) Precision - works for melee and ranged, so it's great efficiency
(9) Improved TWF
(12) Multitude of Missiles - great synergy with Whirling Blades
(15) Greater TWF
(18) Improved Critical: Piercing - goes well with Assassin Core 5
(21) Simple Thrown Expertise - now that he has lots of Dex, time to multiply it
(24) Overwhelming Critical
(26D) Perfect TWF (if available)
(27) Improved Sneak Attack
(28D) Doubleshot
(29D) Dire Charge or Deific Warding
(30) Improved Critical: Thrown
(30L) Scion of Ethereal Plane

-----

So with the +8 tomes, and NO mechanic, and probably going (way) over on INT should more than cover any traps in the game right? If not which ones does he miss?

Mostly about gearing AFAIK, but rule of thumb is newer content is harder, which is an easy way to get an idea of the DC's involved. With his heavy Int investment and some gearing he'll be fine though

[unbongwah]

-- Pure rogue. Elf for lore.

Okay after confirming that Dagger in the Back works with throwing daggers - if I were to tackle this build now, it would look something like this:

Vistani Elf Rogue
18/2 Rogue/Fighter
Elf




Level Order


1. Rogue           6. Rogue          11. Rogue          16. Rogue
2. Rogue           7. Rogue          12. Rogue          17. Rogue
3. Rogue           8. Fighter        13. Rogue          18. Fighter
4. Rogue           9. Rogue          14. Rogue          19. Rogue
5. Rogue          10. Rogue          15. Rogue          20. Rogue




Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    12       14      12: DEX
Intelligence    14       14      16: DEX
Wisdom           8        8      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX


Feats


 1        : Two Weapon Fighting
 3        : Simple Thrown Expertise
 6        : Point Blank Shot
 8 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
 9        : Multitude of Missiles
12        : Improved Critical: Piercing OR Thrown
15        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Precise Shot
18 Fighter: Improved Precise Shot
21 Epic   : Precision
24 Epic   : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Combat Archery OR Improved Critical: Thrown
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


11 Rogue  : Opportunist
14 Rogue  : Crippling Strike OR Defensive Roll
17 Rogue  : Improved Evasion




Enhancements (Spent: 80+0r +0u / Max: 80+0r +0u AP)


Vistani Knife Fighter (45 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Quick Reflexes, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Blade Master
Vistani Knife Training I, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Rapid Slash
Vistani Knife Training II, Mist Stalker II, Weapon Versatility, Haste Boost III
Vistani Knife Training III, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker III, Deadly Blades
Vistani Knife Training IV, Celerity, Mist Stalker IV, Choose One: Double Daggers
Vistani Knife Training V, Whirling Blades, Mist Stalker V, Blessed Blades, Vendetta

Assassin (31 AP)
Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
Poison Strikes: Heartseeker, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training
Execute, Weakening Strikes, Sneak Attack Training

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)
Staff Control
Fast Movement

Elf (1 AP)
Elven Accuracy

Leveling Guide
Ass0 Knife in the Darkness; Ass1 Sneak Attack Training; Vis0 Knife Expertise
Vis1 Rapid Slash; Ass1 Stealthy I, II
Ass0 Dagger in the Back; Ass2 Damage Boost I, II, III
Vis1 Mist Stalker; Vis0 Knife Juggler; Vis1 Vistani Knife Training I
Vis2 Haste Boost I, II, III; Ass1 Stealthy III
Ass0 Assassin's Trick; Vis0 Quick Reflexes; Vis3 Fan of Knives
Vis2 Mist Stalker II; Vis3 Mist Stalker III
TA0 Staff Control; TA1 Fast Movement; Vis1 Undead Hunter
Vis3 Deadly Blades; Vis4 Choose One: Double Daggers
Vis4 Celerity; Vis2 Weapon Versatility; Vis4 Mist Stalker IV
Vis2 Vistani Knife Training II; Vis3 Vistani Knife Training III
Vis0 One With Blades; Vis5 Whirling Blades; Elf0 Elven Accuracy
Vis5 Mist Stalker V; Vis5 Vendetta
Vis5 Blessed Blades; Vis4 Vistani Knife Training IV
Vis5 Vistani Knife Training V; Ass2 Venomed Blades I, II
Ass2 Venomed Blades III; Ass2 Sneak Attack Training
Ass3 Sneak Attack Training; Ass1 Poison Strikes: Heartseeker; Ass0 Nimbleness
Vis0 Vistani Fortune; Ass3 Critical Mastery I, II, III
Ass4 Execute; Ass4 Weakening Strikes
Vis0 Blade Master; Ass4 Sneak Attack Training; Ass0 Lethality

For any sort of dagger thrower build, I'd say the bare minimum feat requirements are Simple Thrown Expertise + Point Blank Shot (pre-req for MoM) + Multitude of Missiles. Quick Draw is free from the Vistani tree; Whirling Blades is the 10,000 Stars equivalent for dagger throwers; and MoM replaces Manyshot. Basically, use throwing daggers when MoM or Whirling Blades are off cooldown and melee daggers the rest of the time.

The fighter 2 splash adds extra feats to a build concept which really needs them; and if you know you're going for the Vistani capstone, you don't need more than rogue 18. Pure rogue has to give up two feats (e.g., Precise Shot + Improved Precise Shot); but gains +1d6 sneak attack, one more rogue bonus feat, can take Lethality at character level 18 (instead of 20), and has access to the Assassin capstone should your son decide to respec into that.

Anyway that's all I got, adapt as you see fit. Good luck and have fun! Remember: the family which slays together, stays together.

[SpartanKiller13]

The fighter 2 splash adds extra feats to a build concept which really needs them; and if you know you're going for the Vistani capstone, you don't need more than rogue 18. Pure rogue has to give up two feats (e.g., Precise Shot + Improved Precise Shot); but gains +1d6 sneak attack, one more rogue bonus feat, can take Lethality at character level 18 (instead of 20), and has access to the Assassin capstone should your son decide to respec into that.

Yeah, splashing Fighter for feats was my first thought too it's definitely a feat squeeze there. IPS is really nice though, so if a splash is acceptable I'd vote for one as well.

Glad to see I'm on the right track for throwers though XD

[unbongwah]

Well, it's not like I ran this build personally so it's all just theorycrafting. But minmaxing bores me so I like the idea of an Assassin who also has a ranged backup. And Improved Precise Shot addresses one of the shortcomings of a typical Assassin - namely a lack of AoE DPS - but obviously it costs several feats to get there.

[SpartanKiller13]

Well, it's not like I ran this build personally so it's all just theorycrafting. But minmaxing bores me so I like the idea of an Assassin who also has a ranged backup. And Improved Precise Shot addresses one of the shortcomings of a typical Assassin - namely a lack of AoE DPS - but obviously it costs several feats to get there.

Yeah, and stacking cooldowns for boosted knife combat seems pretty decent given you still have TWF the rest of the time

Might actually be better boss DPS etc, I'm kinda curious now. Wish IC:Piercing worked for both though :/ because for endgame that sorta locks you into wanting Autumn's Veil which is feytwisted raid loot so good luck.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

YOU GUYS FREIKIN ROCK!!

You know that I've built a few builds over the years on this forum that captured the imagination, and that's why I helped so many people build bards over the years. Theory crafting makes a builder feel like Santa Claus. There are a lot worse hobbies out there fellas.

What you three built is a non-tweaked build that someone can jump into and MAKE IT HIS OWN. I was really hoping someone could do for me and my son.

Mission accomplished!!!

Thank you SpartanKiller13, Unbongwah and C-dog for what you do here. It's beyond appreciated.

[SpartanKiller13]

YOU GUYS FREIKIN ROCK!!

You know that I've built a few builds over the years on this forum that captured the imagination, and that's why I helped so many people build bards over the years. Theory crafting makes a builder feel like Santa Claus. There are a lot worse hobbies out there fellas.

What you three built is a non-tweaked build that someone can jump into and MAKE IT HIS OWN. I was really hoping someone could do for me and my son.

Mission accomplished!!!

Thank you SpartanKiller13, Unbongwah and C-dog for what you do here. It's beyond appreciated.

Glad to help! Let us know if ya need more, or make an abrupt left-turn halfway through leveling

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Glad to help! Let us know if ya need more, or make an abrupt left-turn halfway through leveling

I already ran down the hallway pulled out my hair jumped out the window and ran back around so I think I got it out of my system. Its his problem now! Sink or swim time!!! ~~~

[gam3rfi3nd]

Okay after confirming that Dagger in the Back works with throwing daggers - if I were to tackle this build now, it would look something like this:

Vistani Elf Rogue
18/2 Rogue/Fighter
Elf




Level Order


1. Rogue           6. Rogue          11. Rogue          16. Rogue
2. Rogue           7. Rogue          12. Rogue          17. Rogue
3. Rogue           8. Fighter        13. Rogue          18. Fighter
4. Rogue           9. Rogue          14. Rogue          19. Rogue
5. Rogue          10. Rogue          15. Rogue          20. Rogue




Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    12       14      12: DEX
Intelligence    14       14      16: DEX
Wisdom           8        8      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX


Feats


 1        : Two Weapon Fighting
 3        : Simple Thrown Expertise
 6        : Point Blank Shot
 8 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
 9        : Multitude of Missiles
12        : Improved Critical: Piercing OR Thrown
15        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Precise Shot
18 Fighter: Improved Precise Shot
21 Epic   : Precision
24 Epic   : Improved Sneak Attack
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Combat Archery OR Improved Critical: Thrown
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


11 Rogue  : Opportunist
14 Rogue  : Crippling Strike OR Defensive Roll
17 Rogue  : Improved Evasion




Enhancements (Spent: 80+0r +0u / Max: 80+0r +0u AP)


Vistani Knife Fighter (45 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Quick Reflexes, One With Blades, Vistani Fortune, Blade Master
Vistani Knife Training I, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Rapid Slash
Vistani Knife Training II, Mist Stalker II, Weapon Versatility, Haste Boost III
Vistani Knife Training III, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker III, Deadly Blades
Vistani Knife Training IV, Celerity, Mist Stalker IV, Choose One: Double Daggers
Vistani Knife Training V, Whirling Blades, Mist Stalker V, Blessed Blades, Vendetta

Assassin (31 AP)
Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality
Poison Strikes: Heartseeker, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Critical Mastery III, Sneak Attack Training
Execute, Weakening Strikes, Sneak Attack Training

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)
Staff Control
Fast Movement

Elf (1 AP)
Elven Accuracy

Leveling Guide
Ass0 Knife in the Darkness; Ass1 Sneak Attack Training; Vis0 Knife Expertise
Vis1 Rapid Slash; Ass1 Stealthy I, II
Ass0 Dagger in the Back; Ass2 Damage Boost I, II, III
Vis1 Mist Stalker; Vis0 Knife Juggler; Vis1 Vistani Knife Training I
Vis2 Haste Boost I, II, III; Ass1 Stealthy III
Ass0 Assassin's Trick; Vis0 Quick Reflexes; Vis3 Fan of Knives
Vis2 Mist Stalker II; Vis3 Mist Stalker III
TA0 Staff Control; TA1 Fast Movement; Vis1 Undead Hunter
Vis3 Deadly Blades; Vis4 Choose One: Double Daggers
Vis4 Celerity; Vis2 Weapon Versatility; Vis4 Mist Stalker IV
Vis2 Vistani Knife Training II; Vis3 Vistani Knife Training III
Vis0 One With Blades; Vis5 Whirling Blades; Elf0 Elven Accuracy
Vis5 Mist Stalker V; Vis5 Vendetta
Vis5 Blessed Blades; Vis4 Vistani Knife Training IV
Vis5 Vistani Knife Training V; Ass2 Venomed Blades I, II
Ass2 Venomed Blades III; Ass2 Sneak Attack Training
Ass3 Sneak Attack Training; Ass1 Poison Strikes: Heartseeker; Ass0 Nimbleness
Vis0 Vistani Fortune; Ass3 Critical Mastery I, II, III
Ass4 Execute; Ass4 Weakening Strikes
Vis0 Blade Master; Ass4 Sneak Attack Training; Ass0 Lethality

For any sort of dagger thrower build, I'd say the bare minimum feat requirements are Simple Thrown Expertise + Point Blank Shot (pre-req for MoM) + Multitude of Missiles. Quick Draw is free from the Vistani tree; Whirling Blades is the 10,000 Stars equivalent for dagger throwers; and MoM replaces Manyshot. Basically, use throwing daggers when MoM or Whirling Blades are off cooldown and melee daggers the rest of the time.

The fighter 2 splash adds extra feats to a build concept which really needs them; and if you know you're going for the Vistani capstone, you don't need more than rogue 18. Pure rogue has to give up two feats (e.g., Precise Shot + Improved Precise Shot); but gains +1d6 sneak attack, one more rogue bonus feat, can take Lethality at character level 18 (instead of 20), and has access to the Assassin capstone should your son decide to respec into that.

Anyway that's all I got, adapt as you see fit. Good luck and have fun! Remember: the family which slays together, stays together.

I actually believe it looks pretty tight. I really hope it can end up being as effective as you want to.

[Ryukendo]

So, got a request. And it's mostly 'cause I got a Ferrocrystal Throwing Hammer on Hardcore and realized I've not seen, nor has Google helped me find a single build for throwing hammers.

That said, there's the request. Throwing Hammer build.

Hit me, please? Insane curiousity here. I blame Hardcore RNG.

[unbongwah]

And it's mostly 'cause I got a Ferrocrystal Throwing Hammer on Hardcore and realized I've not seen, nor has Google helped me find a single build for throwing hammers.

It's because there's nothing on par with Simple Thrown Expertise nor Multitude of Missiles for throwing hammers (or axes), to say nothing of Vistani Knife Fighter's bonuses to daggers or Vile Chemist's bonuses to simple weapons. Literally the only upside is throwing hammers should benefit from Pulverizer in LD.

Otherwise a throwing hammer / axe build will probably look like all the simple thrower builds e.g. rogue 11 / ranger 6 / bard 3 with tier-5 Deepwood Stalker + Dashing Scoundrel from Swashbuckler. The silver lining being when you get tired of lagging behind the simple throwers, you can just add STE and MoM to "fix" your build.

[Sparty]

Greetings DDO Friends,

Looking for a solo reaper DPS build self healer

Dabbled in reaper during heroics but once I got into Epics I was never able to solo so gave up trying (dieing).
There's always been plenty of stuff to run to carry me to cap, Which is where I sit and farm gear. I'm bored!!!
As a melee warlock I can solo some Elite content but not all. I'm a terrible player

Supreme +7 Tome
4th Life - I have Barb, Monk, Sorc, currently Warlock
EPL's - Energy crit x2, fast heal, skill mastery
Pure, no multiclass
Utilize Blackrazor so THF
Standard races - I own PDK, Aasimar, Tiefling
I dont raid - don't feel I am good enough to join so my gear is limited to what I can get from drops
I own all packs
I don't craft but can if I have to - I've collected plenty of stuff over the yeras and can probably max out a crafter in a few hours.

I look forward to the build

[SpartanKiller13]

Greetings DDO Friends,

Looking for a solo reaper DPS build self healer

Dabbled in reaper during heroics but once I got into Epics I was never able to solo so gave up trying (dieing).
There's always been plenty of stuff to run to carry me to cap, Which is where I sit and farm gear. I'm bored!!!
As a melee warlock I can solo some Elite content but not all. I'm a terrible player

Supreme +7 Tome
Pure, no multiclass
Utilize Blackrazor so THF
Standard races - I own PDK, Aasimar, Tiefling
I dont raid - don't feel I am good enough to join so my gear is limited to what I can get from drops
I own all packs
I don't craft but can if I have to - I've collected plenty of stuff over the yeras and can probably max out a crafter in a few hours.

I look forward to the build

Welcome

Epic Elite is proportionally a lot harder than Heroic Elite - and Reaper commensurately.

Are you looking for 1-30? 1-20? 20-30?

Solo THF DPS melee with self-heals as a pure class is a pretty stringent set of requirements lol. You're largely stuck with Paladin or Barbarian. Paladin has better saves/defenses, Barbarian is easier and probably better DPS. Once you park a rez hire Barbarian is probably better, but if you really hate dying go Paladin instead.

Paladin uses LoH earlygame, Cures later, and and probably Cocoon in epics for soloing.
Barbarian uses Blood Tribute from level 2+, and for soloing 12+ you'll want Blood Strength from Ravager T5.

Starting:
Race: doesn't matter as long as you're not Warforged. Bigger races have more reach = good, Human gets a bonus feat and cheap HAmp = good.
Stats: max Str > Con for Barbarian, and Str > Con/Cha for Paladin. Put points in Int if you want skill points. Level-ups into Str.
Skills: get like 10 points into Jump. Everything else is cake. Heal is alright for Paladins.

Feats:

Barbarian: THF x3, ICrit:Slashing, Power Attack
Paladin: THF x3, ICrit:Slashing, Precision (if you start Dex 10 you can take this at level 3)

Both get two leftover feats - for Paladin I'd take Quicken Spell and Empower Healing (for Cocoon in epics) or Stunning Blow. For Barbarian I'd take Stunning Blow and Toughness.

Epic Feats: Overwhelming Critical > Toughness (Epic if possible) > Blinding Speed (for QOL) > Epic Damage Reduction
Destiny Feats: Perfect THF > Perfect TWF > Dire Charge
Scion Feat: Arborea

------

Enhancements - Barbarian: grab Blood Tribute from FB, then do whatever until 12, then spec for Ravager T5 + Blood Tribute, then back into FB for goodies. Grab cores whenever possible. For epics either FB capstone (for DPS) or Ravager capstone (for survivability/more AP to spread).

Enhancements - Paladin: grab extra LoH early, then KotC until like level 5, then get Sacred Defense + perks for 25 PRR, then KotC for Core 3, then Sacred Defender for +20% HP, then fill out KotC. Eventually grab +6 Str from Sacred Defender, but mostly 2/3 of your AP into KotC. Grab cores whenever possible. For epics run capstone KotC and Core 5 Sacred Defender (make sure you swap 20% HP for +6 Con when you get Epic Defensive Fighting).