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[Sarzor]

NoDoze, thanks for the links.

I was actually trying to think of a way to make a wizard bladeforged build, since it would ease alot of feat chosing.

The Nova Shiradi build you mentioned looks quite nice but wouldn't fit either of my qualifications (LR20 from pure cleric, and would need paladin levels if BF) unless I could do Wiz/Monk/Pal or Wiz/Fvs/Pal, but one loses mana regeneration from fvs, and the scond loses evasion and two feats, so am unsure how well the split would work. If the spell regen is less important, I would sub paladin for favored soul, though this may be rough as I still don't have a torc. Alternately, for using a LR20, divine disciple in cleric is a poor substitute for favored soul levels, but may still be viable. I'd need to go Wiz/Cleric/Rogue, since he's true neutral (wish I'd made him LG years ago).

With regards to the fvs build, how important is the shadowscale docent? Also how would this do after the paladin changes? A comment in there seemed to say losing 10 saves (Current plan is to cap at +8 with 2 PAL levels).

Right now I'm leaning away from LR20'ing, since so many of the better builds rely on monk and/or paladin, which would be locked out. That would leave either a sorc shiradi or the fvs build. The fvs build seems a bit more reliant on gear in order to bring up the MM caster level, so may be less viable?

Oh, and the semi-adapted fvs build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Bladeforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 6 Wizard \ 12 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 538
Spell Points: 2021 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 28
Reflex: 22
Will: 23

                  Starting            Ending          
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats        
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 28)        
Strength              8                  8            
Dexterity             6                  6            
Constitution         17                 22            
Intelligence         16                 18            
Wisdom               14                 15            
Charisma             14                 24            

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 17

                  Starting            Ending          
                 Base Skills        Base Skills       
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 28)        
Balance              -2                 -2            
Bluff                 2                  7            
Concentration         7                 30            
Diplomacy             6                 25            
Disable Device        n/a               n/a           
Haggle                2                  7            
Heal                  2                 12            
Hide                 -2                 -2            
Intimidate            2                  7            
Jump                 -1                  0            
Listen                2                  2            
Move Silently        -2                 -2            
Open Lock            n/a               n/a            
Perform               3                  8            
Repair                5                 27            
Search                3                  4            
Spellcraft            3                 27            
Spot                  2                  2            
Swim                 -1                 -1            
Tumble               n/a                -1            
Use Magic Device      4                 18            

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Repair (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Lord of Blades
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Spellcraft (+5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Repair (+5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 7 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+4)


Level 8 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity


Level 14 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Wizard)
Skill: Repair (+6)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Repair (+6)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell


Level 20 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Mental Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Force


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Hellball
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Inscribed Armor (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Font of Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Shield of Condemnation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Aura of Menace (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Summon Archon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Scourge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Just Reward (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Smiting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Intense Faith (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Intense Faith (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Angel of Vengeance (Fvs) - Intense Faith (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation I: Magic Missile (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation II: Gust of Wind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation III: Chain Missiles (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Energy of the Scholar (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Primary Spell Focus: Evocation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Blast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Supremacy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Pale Master (Wiz) - Dark Reaping (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Pale Master (Wiz) - Skeletal Knight (Rank 1)

[Nodoze]

NoDoze, thanks for the links.

I was actually trying to think of a way to make a wizard bladeforged build, since it would ease alot of feat chosing.

The Nova Shiradi build you mentioned looks quite nice but wouldn't fit either of my qualifications (LR20 from pure cleric, and would need paladin levels if BF) unless I could do Wiz/Monk/Pal or Wiz/Fvs/Pal, but one loses mana regeneration from fvs, and the scond loses evasion and two feats, so am unsure how well the split would work. If the spell regen is less important, I would sub paladin for favored soul, though this may be rough as I still don't have a torc. Alternately, for using a LR20, divine disciple in cleric is a poor substitute for favored soul levels, but may still be viable. I'd need to go Wiz/Cleric/Rogue, since he's true neutral (wish I'd made him LG years ago).

With regards to the fvs build, how important is the shadowscale docent? Also how would this do after the paladin changes? A comment in there seemed to say losing 10 saves (Current plan is to cap at +8 with 2 PAL levels).

Right now I'm leaning away from LR20'ing, since so many of the better builds rely on monk and/or paladin, which would be locked out. That would leave either a sorc shiradi or the fvs build. The fvs build seems a bit more reliant on gear in order to bring up the MM caster level, so may be less viable?

Oh, and the semi-adapted fvs build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Bladeforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 6 Wizard \ 12 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
...

Arrg. I was so focusing on the TN of the Cleric and that being Human & that the Race & TN alignment fit with 16Wiz/2FvS/2Rogue (a recommended Variant of the OP's 16Wiz/2FvS/2Mnk) that I totally forgot about the 3 class limit which ruins it for the high level Human TN Pure Cleric (even with the LR+20)... Note to self if I look further is to look for 2 class splits that work with Human/TN or that already has Cleric build in if Triple-Classed... Good catch and sorry I missed that and no I would not do the Cleric SLA option if focusing on Shiradi as research all points to multi-proc spells like Magic Missile, Chain Missile, Force Missile, Scorching Ray, etc...

I don't think adapting the 'any race' Nova Shiradi 16Wiz/2FvS/2Monk to a BF without a LR+1 and thus resulting in 16Wiz/2FvS/2Paladin totally gimps the build by any means as the OP indicated that Monk isn't essential & while you lose saves he thought a Rogue variant was viable. If I have learned anything is that Shiradi works from many platforms as long as you have the minimums for what you are trying to leverage.

That being said if you want to go Wizard based as a BladeForged then likely Secure's BladeForged 12FvS/6Wiz/2Pal (Charisma based or otherwise) is the only one I have seen proven on live and well documented that fits all your criteria. I think the ShadowScale Docent idea is interesting but doesn't make or break the build. I see the ShadowScale benefits now and they may indeed go up if the changes being discussed go live but I don't see how not having it makes you particularly less survivable than Sorc builds which do fine... That being said, IIUC the ShadowScale Docents only needs commendations which you will earn anyway and ShadowScales which you can buy off the auction house at cap if you didn't want to run the raids (I did and I am not rich as I have many characters to equip)... The one thing I will say about the 12FvS/6Wiz/2Pal option is that it is the unique option at the table as you could at least be a solid party off healer with it if you were so inclined...

What is steering me toward going Wizard based on a Shiradi Caster are the following:

• - I want traps/locks and an Int based Wiz Int can do the skills with just 2 Rogue;
• - I want Evasion and an Int based Wiz should be decent with Insightful Reflexes and relatively even more on par once the Paladin-2 splashes are somewhat nerfed...
• - extra wiz feats are nice;
• - only meta'ed spells & SLAs result in meta'ed Shiradi procs so that makes the Wiz ArchMage SLAs more appealing;
• - gives me an excuse/way to try undead-self-healing yet be able to easily fall back on the self-repairs if I don't like the undead option... Getting comfortable with undead-self-unhealing could open up multiple options for races/lives for me...
• - etc... (tired and think I am missing a few things)...

To me the above would be worth a LR+1 on a BladeForged if I wanted to skip all those levels but that is me and not necessarily you so please don't let my excitement around wiz based sway you too much if you have a better fit elsewhere for your goals...

I am tired but glad in the end that you have multiple good options. Don't forget that there are many native great BladeForged Sorc options and if I didn't want traps I personally would love to try the double free mana from both Fire Savant's Fanning the Flames and FvS Endless Faith in 14Sorc/4FvS/2Pally platform that leverages that synergy between Fire/Force. That being said there also something to be said with focusing on simplicity on one's first Shiradi Caster like Varinon recommended and the 18/2 with both "Wings" and knockdown immunity also sounds really appealing for a first go at it...

Edit: Even though I did tons of research (a lot was for me as well and I sadly enjoy that sort of thing ;-) and posted lots of ideas/options I wouldn't be the slightest offended/sad if the first answer that Varinon gave ended up being the right answer for you. You are fortunate that there really are no bad options as apparently Shriadi is both powerful and flexible...

Hope that all helps...

Let us know if you are good to go now and if so what you decided upon.

[Caprice]

Alternately, for using a LR20, divine disciple in cleric is a poor substitute for favored soul levels, but may still be viable. I'd need to go Wiz/Cleric/Rogue, since he's true neutral (wish I'd made him LG years ago).

I did not consider my Light DiDi Cleric to be particularly successful in EEs and I did have the mana regen from FvS (18/2 build). I contributed a little bit to the group by the occasional CC or AoE damage proc, but IMO I could not get enough procs to be worth it and whenever I was trying to kill mobs on my own it took forever. Holy Smite SLA wasn't terrible but the cooldown was too long for it to feel effective and the other abilities are single target - single hit so you get fewer chances for Shiradi procs, and also fewer chances for Just Reward procs so I also used up SP faster than a Shiradi Sorceror would. That was before the Soundburst SLA was added to EA and with that twisted in it should feel a little better, but I am skeptical that it is enough.

I felt that I was most successful in EEs in US and playing a support role. I could aggro archers and casters and self-heal through them mostly with Radiant Aura and sometimes Renews, while tossing out Cocoons and Renews and Cures as needed for the rest of the party so they could stick to just DPS, and I had a Torc to recover enough SP to last a lot longer. The extra HP and Fortification from US made it much easier for me to survive aggro and the extra caster levels helped both my DPS and healing. However I felt like I was mostly carried playing like that.

[Nodoze]

NoDoze, thanks for the links. ... Alternately, for using a LR20, divine disciple in cleric is a poor substitute for favored soul levels, but may still be viable. I'd need to go Wiz/Cleric/Rogue, since he's true neutral (wish I'd made him LG years ago). ...

I did not consider my Light DiDi Cleric to be particularly successful in EEs and I did have the mana regen from FvS (18/2 build). I contributed a little bit to the group by the occasional CC or AoE damage proc, but IMO I could not get enough procs to be worth it and whenever I was trying to kill mobs on my own it took forever. Holy Smite SLA wasn't terrible but the cooldown was too long for it to feel effective and the other abilities are single target - single hit so you get fewer chances for Shiradi procs, and also fewer chances for Just Reward procs so I also used up SP faster than a Shiradi Sorceror would. That was before the Soundburst SLA was added to EA and with that twisted in it should feel a little better, but I am skeptical that it is enough.

I felt that I was most successful in EEs in US and playing a support role. I could aggro archers and casters and self-heal through them mostly with Radiant Aura and sometimes Renews, while tossing out Cocoons and Renews and Cures as needed for the rest of the party so they could stick to just DPS, and I had a Torc to recover enough SP to last a lot longer. The extra HP and Fortification from US made it much easier for me to survive aggro and the extra caster levels helped both my DPS and healing. However I felt like I was mostly carried playing like that.

Thanks Caprice for bringing to the table some actual Cleric-Divine-Disciple+FvS+Shiradi-casting experience to the discussion. While I am a good researcher my in game experience is focused on areas that I prefer and I haven't really branched much into Shiradi and not run any true-pure-casting-based-Shiradi builds to cap (I have only had 2.5 lives with Shiradi as my prime ED and thus far only done Shiradi on EE on Throwers with just some hybrid casting).

One of my blessings (or curses depending on how you look at it) is retaining much of what I read and extrapolating from there. Because there are already multiple great options on the table, I hesitated to share this, but then felt I would be remiss if I didn't, so I wanted to let you know that I did come across a reference from an experienced EE player who did do a 'Human Shiradi spammer 11Clr/7Wiz/2FvS'. The EE player felt the 11Cleric based split was also very strong Shiradi caster build though in the end he focused on sharing the 12FvS/6Wiz/2Pal build (maybe because it leveraged the unique armor spin). Like Caprice did he also leveraged the DD Holy Smite SLA & he played it in both wisdom and constitution specs but ended up sticking with con for survivability. IIUC the 11Clr/7Wiz/2FvS split has going for it:

• holy smite SLA,
• wizard evo SLA's,
• wizard evo spells (when SLAs are on cool-down);
• BB
• heal,
• solid fog
• ice storm,
• scorge and fvs sp regen.
• Max, empower, enlarge, extend and quicken for mettas.
• edit: self-cast-Displacement

That 11Clr/7Wiz/2FvS should work as a TN Human so you could use your LR+20 to quickly go to it. Considering a BladeForged alt you could actually do both and contrast/compare and then leave the one you want as your 'EE at cap toon' while you TR/iTR/eR the other to max out fate points/hPLs/iPLs/ePLs/etc on the other toon (you could even alternate both at cap eventually maxing both out)...

Sorry if I am giving you too many options to consider and that my 'Walls of Text' SLA are fully Maximized/Empowered/Heightened/Enlarged/Entended as, for better or worse, I can't seem to turn those Meta's off... Too bad they aren't also Quickened & Eschewed-Materials and Empowered-Healing (as sometimes I wish for those Metas instead ;-) ...

Please let us know if you are good to go now and if so what you decided upon.

[Caprice]

One of my blessings (or curses depending on how you look at it) is retaining much of what I read and extrapolating from there. Because there are already multiple great options on the table, I hesitated to share this, but then felt I would be remiss if I didn't, so I wanted to let you know that I did come across a reference from an experienced EE player who did do a 'Human Shiradi spammer 11Clr/7Wiz/2FvS'.

I'm glad you did share it since I theorycrafted a similar build once but never tried it beyond a Morninglord throwaway test (although I was trying Dark DiDi & Vampire and didn't like it that much). My guess is that Secure succeeded that well because (s)he is probably mostly focused on the multi-hit effects from the Wizard SLAs (and possibly un-meta'd Wizard spells) and Holy Smite is just one more multi-hit SLA to use, and of course having BB to kite through and Heal for emergencies is great. DiDi also adds a decent amount of universal spell power and crit % too. OTOH I suspect that it is a fairly weak build outside Shiradi because I would think that a lot of the DPS comes from the Shiradi procs because of the relatively low caster levels and low Evocation DC, so I am not sure that I'd want to use it to traverse the ED map & earn Fate points.
... and now I want to try it. ;-)

[mikarddo]

I can't remember all the goals in this thread but it was a good related read and had multiple ideas shared in it though reading it may change your goals somewhat if it has ideas you hadn't thought of:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Mom-quot-build

Edit: It looks like the above build currently uses the DragonMark of Passage for mobility/utility but that may be able to be swapped to make it Chest Blesser. Maybe post in that thread asking for ideas on a varient and they may add one for that.

Thanks.

I took a closer look at my own build (18 bard, 2 rog) Spellsinger/Fatesinger and managed to get his reflex save to 68 selfbuffed +3 vs traps with 90+ in search, disable and open locks (and another +6 from short boosts), Dragonmarks of Finding and max duration songs (1st lifer, no EPL either) without too much investment in gear. So, I think I fixed it reasonably myself though there is definitely room for improment. Only annoying thing really is that Epic Reflexes and Inspire Excellency cannot co-exist. That would have made the build perfect.

[Sarzor]

Thank you very much everyone.

I decided to go with the 14/4/2 sorc/fvs/pally build, in part because I also asked around some of the chat channels and they all said they'd done it before and found it a very easy way to get into epics cheap. Several of them had done it (as a WF, not bladeforged) for first lives and found it to be quite viable.

With regards to gearing him, I already have the con-opp, but unfortunately no torc. Without a torc, all these builds lose a fair bit, and unfortunately the raid is rarely run. Other than that, there are a number of items which help (shadow docent, flawless blue). Crystalline scepters are easy to find, and skiver pairs nicely at heroic levels with that. Once I get to 23, I have a Twilight which will help quite a bit.

So, in short it's an easy jump into epics with it. Also, the build is viable out of main ED, which helps since I need to work my way across the entire ED zone to get to shiradi. I also have heavy armor proficiency, and for the cost of dodge cap and 5AP, I can be at -25% ASF (Heavy armor is 35%) and can then slot an augment in the shadowscale docent and really upgrade my survivability with some PRR and DR 30/60. A -15% ASF item would only cost me 3 more AP than current. I'd have to weigh that against dodge cap, but it gives some options.

[Nodoze]

Thank you very much everyone.

I decided to go with the 14/4/2 sorc/fvs/pally build, in part because I also asked around some of the chat channels and they all said they'd done it before and found it a very easy way to get into epics cheap. Several of them had done it (as a WF, not bladeforged) for first lives and found it to be quite viable.

With regards to gearing him, I already have the con-opp, but unfortunately no torc. Without a torc, all these builds lose a fair bit, and unfortunately the raid is rarely run. Other than that, there are a number of items which help (shadow docent, flawless blue). Crystalline scepters are easy to find, and skiver pairs nicely at heroic levels with that. Once I get to 23, I have a Twilight which will help quite a bit.

So, in short it's an easy jump into epics with it. Also, the build is viable out of main ED, which helps since I need to work my way across the entire ED zone to get to shiradi. I also have heavy armor proficiency, and for the cost of dodge cap and 5AP, I can be at -25% ASF (Heavy armor is 35%) and can then slot an augment in the shadowscale docent and really upgrade my survivability with some PRR and DR 30/60. A -15% ASF item would only cost me 3 more AP than current. I'd have to weigh that against dodge cap, but it gives some options.

Glad to hear and I think that is a safe/fine choice. I haven't tried the 14Sorc/4Fvs/2Pal platform yet but leveraging the synergy between Fire/Force & the double "free mana" from both Fire Savant's "Fanning the Flames" and FvS "Endless Faith" looks extremely promising/fun.

Going dodge may give you more mileage all the way to 28 (especially if you eR and repeat 20-28 to get ePLs) but the PRR/DR route may be interesting at cap once the ShadowScale is upgraded and you get the DR but sadly I think it is only equipable at 28 once upgraded (and may only get better once the armor changes being discussed hit live). For me I am on the 20->28 treadmill so from memory at 20 I use the commendation docent, at 22 I use the Stone Heart & at 26 I use tier0 (non-upgraded) ShadowScale Docent. I think I have the mats to upgrade it to the ML28 version but since I am not at 28 long (eR at that point) I don't see the point in upgrading at this time.

Best of luck to you and feel free to report back on how it works for you!

[Sarzor]

Glad to hear and I think that is a safe/fine choice. I haven't tried the 14Sorc/4Fvs/2Pal platform yet but leveraging the synergy between Fire/Force & the double "free mana" from both Fire Savant's "Fanning the Flames" and FvS "Endless Faith" looks extremely promising/fun.

Going dodge may give you more mileage all the way to 28 (especially if you eR and repeat 20-28 to get ePLs) but the PRR/DR route may be interesting at cap once the ShadowScale is upgraded and you get the DR but sadly I think it is only equipable at 28 once upgraded (and may only get better once the armor changes being discussed hit live). For me I am on the 20->28 treadmill so from memory at 20 I use the commendation docent, at 22 I use the Stone Heart & at 26 I use tier0 (non-upgraded) ShadowScale Docent. I think I have the mats to upgrade it to the ML28 version but since I am not at 28 long (eR at that point) I don't see the point in upgrading at this time.

Best of luck to you and feel free to report back on how it works for you!

Thanks for the information about the ML28. I had noticed the base item was 26, and didn't see that upgraded was 28.

I hadn't decided what to use until then. Probably random loot until stone heart, then go from there since the blue scale is pointless with a twilight. If I move to 2x 1-handed, then blue scale may be back on the table. That's one thing I like about how this build appears to play out. So much of it is not gear dependent that it leaves the ability to find stuff along the way.

[Nodoze]

...If the OP took their barb splash at lvl 1 and they only have one level of barb, then they only need a single LR +1 to swap that barb for rog.

Thanks for clarifying as that is good to know. I thought all tri-class builds were stuck with a two step process but glad at least a tri-class with only 1 level at the first level could switch. ...

I am thinking of trying a 16Wiz/2Fvs/2Rogue on the next life on a 36 pointer and race-wise I want that character to be a robot (but don't really care much if it is a WarForged or a BladeForged). Being able to go BF could both allow me to leverage the reconstruct SLA and save a lot of XP grinding on a 36 pointer and may be worth a LR+1...

Some follow-up questions just to make sure I understand...

A) Is it a proper statement to say that a tri-class character with only 1 level in a class (or two classes) can switch out the class(es) with a LR+X (meaning that the single level doesn't need to be at the 1st level)?

B) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+1 a BladeForged 1Paladin/2FvS/12Wizard into a 1Rogue/2FvS/12Wizard ?

C) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+5 an 18Ranger/1Rogue/1Monk into 16Ranger/2Fighter/2Paladin?

[unbongwah]

A) Is it a proper statement to say that a tri-class character with only 1 level in a class (or two classes) can switch out the class(es) with a LR+X (meaning that the single level doesn't need to be at the 1st level)?

You can swap out a single class lvl for a different one on a triple-class build BUT you have to do it at the lvl you took that class.

B) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+1 a BladeForged 1Paladin/2FvS/12Wizard into a 1Rogue/2FvS/12Wizard ?

Yes, b/c the pal splash is at lvl 1, so you could switch to rog then.

C) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+5 an 18Ranger/1Rogue/1Monk into 16Ranger/2Fighter/2Paladin?

Yes, but you're constrained as to when you do those class swaps. I presume you took rog at lvl 1, so again you would swap that first.

[Caprice]

I am thinking of trying a 16Wiz/2Fvs/2Rogue on the next life on a 36 pointer and race-wise I want that character to be a robot (but don't really care much if it is a WarForged or a BladeForged). Being able to go BF could both allow me to leverage the reconstruct SLA and save a lot of XP grinding on a 36 pointer and may be worth a LR+1...

Some follow-up questions just to make sure I understand...

A) Is it a proper statement to say that a tri-class character with only 1 level in a class (or two classes) can switch out the class(es) with a LR+X (meaning that the single level doesn't need to be at the 1st level)?

B) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+1 a BladeForged 1Paladin/2FvS/12Wizard into a 1Rogue/2FvS/12Wizard ?

C) Even though he has 3 classes can I LR+5 an 18Ranger/1Rogue/1Monk into 16Ranger/2Fighter/2Paladin?

A) Yes. The restriction is that you cannot add the new class(es) you are introducing until you remove the levels in the old class(es) you are removing. With just one level in each you can switch those at the level they were chosen. If you have more than 1 level in a class you are removing you have to remove all but one of the levels by switching them to a class you already have, and then you can change the last remaining level in that class to any other class.
B) Yes. You can switch the Paladin straight to Rogue because there are no other levels in Paladin locking you in.
C) Yes. You cannot change any Ranger levels to Fighter or Paladin without eliminating the Rogue or Monk levels first, but you can change the Rogue and Monk levels straight to your new class choice (or even Ranger) and then you can change additional Ranger levels into that new class.

[Caprice]

Dangit, scooped as always by Unbongwah!

[unbongwah]

Muahaha, and people said I was mad to take the Forum Ninja PrE - well, who's mad now?!

[Caprice]

Further details RE: C)

Let's assume that the leveling order was Rogue - some # of Ranger levels - Monk - the rest of the Ranger levels. You can switch Rogue directly to any of Ranger, Fighter, or Paladin, since you have no later levels of Rogue locking you into it. You should probably switch it to Ranger to maximize the skill points you get at level 1 (1st change). You have eliminated your Rogue levels so now you only have 2 classes left in your mix, which means that you can assign any class you want at any level from then on. You can leave the following Rangers in place, or change them to one of Fighter or Paladin, but you cannot change them to a mix of both Fighter and Paladin because you have that later Monk level counting as one of your three possible classes. But since you don't actually need to change them let's just leave them as Ranger for now. When you hit the Monk level you can switch that to anything at all since it is your last Monk level and you have at most 2 other classes (2 if you changed level 1 or any of the following Ranger levels to Fighter or Paladin, or you might just have Ranger at this point). You should change it to Fighter or Paladin (2nd change), and from then on you can change any later Ranger levels you like into the rest of your Paladin and Fighter levels (3 changes required, using up your 3rd/4th/5th allowed changes).

Now as a counter example let's suppose that you had a 16 Ranger / 2 Rogue / 2 Monk that you wanted to make into that same 16 Ranger / 2 Fighter / 2 Paladin. It looks like it's just 4 swaps so you might think that you can LR+5 it, but unfortunately you cannot. To illustrate let's say that the leveling order was Rogue - Ranger - Ranger - Monk - Monk - Rogue - Ranger x 14. You cannot change the Rogue at level 1 to anything but Ranger or Monk because the later Rogue level locks you in, so you have to change that to Ranger (1st change). You leave the next 2 levels as Ranger. At level 4 you are still constrained to just Ranger, Monk, and Rogue because the later Monk and Rogue levels lock you into just those 3 class choices. So you would switch that first Monk level to Ranger again (2nd change). Now at level 5 you can change the Monk pick to any class you want because it is your last Monk level and no later level interferes. So you switch that to Paladin (3rd change). At level 6 you can now change your Rogue level to anything you want because it is your last Rogue level. You switch it to Paladin again (4th). Unfortunately you can only pick up one level of Fighter because having second levels of Rogue and Monk forced you to waste charges on changes to Ranger levels that you did not need otherwise. My illustration was specific but any leveling order will have exactly the same problem. You can do the swap with a LR+5 and a LR+1 taken back to back (after waiting out the LR timer or buying a bypass) or with 2 LR+3s, but that 6th change is needed to make it work.

[Nodoze]

<good info>

<more good info>

Dangit, scooped as always by Unbongwah!

Muahaha, and people said I was mad to take the Forum Ninja PrE - well, who's mad now?!

Further details RE: C)...

Thanks. I think I got it but reserve the right to get confused again next time after not LR+anything for awhile ;-) Hopefully I can come back and reread this info if/when needed...

Wanted to let you know that I did not find the multiple responses from slightly different angles redundant as together they gave me a clearer picture... Thanks for all the effort you gents put in.

I also appreciated the humorous replies as a bonus !

[Ultimaetus]

Anyone got any ideas for an INT-based thrower possibly using the upcoming harper tree? I've got a 2 Arti/ 1 Rog past life with +5 tome to all skills that I want to TR when that comes.

[werewolfofthefuture]

I have a conundrum.

A lady friend had her heart set on an idea that she has in her head that the mechanics of D&D seem to absolutely despise, thus leading to a gimped character. The thing is is that she's so set on the idea that it may just be the end of our DDO time if I don't figure it out, since I don't want to play alone, and the other options are just depressing. So I'm hoping someone here can come up with something that could fit what we need without being horrendously underpowered/useless.

Mostly, she wants to be a drow bard/rogue swashbuckler. I know, I know. I've read the forums, I've seen the build attempts, I understand the drawbacks. I'm just hoping that there's some genius builder who could, perhaps, just somehow make this work, to any degree. The parts are really non-negotiable due to the kind of character she wants to play. If this was pen & paper, I could just tweak the rules, but in this case... I can't do that. She comes from that kind of background, so she has the character first, then the mechanics can figure themselves out later.

I'm probably going to back her up as a warforged paladin.

What she wants out of the experience?

- Being able to spot traps and disable them.
- Being able to find hidden doors.
- Going towards using the swashbuckler bard enhancements.
- SWF fighting when she has to, but largely avoiding fighting.
- Being able to use songs for buffs and mild CC.

This will be a starter build, so anything that isn't horribly gimped would be fine. I've done pen & paper before but I'm relatively new to DDO too, I'm familiar-ish, but nowhere near enough to make this work.

Help me, great builders, you're my only hope.

[Nodoze]

I have a conundrum ... she wants to be a drow bard/rogue swashbuckler ...

I'm probably going to back her up as a warforged paladin.

What she wants out of the experience?

- Being able to spot traps and disable them.
- Being able to find hidden doors.
- Going towards using the swashbuckler bard enhancements.
- SWF fighting when she has to, but largely avoiding fighting.
- Being able to use songs for buffs and mild CC.

This will be a starter build, so anything that isn't horribly gimped would be fine. ...

Unless someone finds/creates something better I would start here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5355598

And compare to this:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-swashbuckler

I don't see why an 18Bard/2Rogue couldn't be fine for EH and below.

The following are some thoughts on party composition...

Edit: I remembered after posting the below that BladeForged may not be Free to Play (F2P) and didn't know if the folk in question were F2Pers... If they are then Warforged would be the only non-fleshie option but otherwise my thoughts still are that the duo may be better served with a fleshie Paladin if the duo has a member who has cure spells and not repair spells (and ideally a fleshie race which has Healing Amplification). If one has his heart set on WarForged (which is fine form a flavor/RP standpoint) then one option to consider to make the duo mesh better is to take the WarForged healing from -50% to -20% penalty by taking the Healer's Friend racial enhancement.

Personally I don't see the value of going Warforged over BladeForged for a Paladin as, in addition to the awesome Reconstruct SLA, BladeForged get full Repair spells as Paladin Spells and has a better racial tree in general. The one thing would be except maybe that you want to level with her but then again maybe you can just not automatically level a BladeForged to 15 and just take levels when she does...

The above being said if she is going Bard she will have decent cure wounds spells and you may get more mileage as a pair if you go fleshy yourself (humans/PDKs and Half Elves can get nice heal amp) as WarForged/BladeForged get half or less out of healing spells (without spending AP). Her being able to heal you may give her something to do if she doesn't want to fight much.

For my duos or small parties, as a general rule, my BladeForged/Warforged melee typical pair with Artificers/Arcanes to get native Repairs and my fleshy melee typically pair with Divines/Bards to get native heals...

[samsonov]

Hello all,

Was wondering if there's a build for wizard/bard? Want wraith from, single weapon use, perhaps a shield too. And maybe Some points in EK as well.