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[Felisin]

unbongwah and Tilomere - thank you very much for taking your time and all explanations you gave to me. Slowly, it all become more clearly to me. And I see how much do I still have to learn. I'm ok with that, especially having the possibililty to ask more experienced players for help. Respect.

PS: so good to have that free chance to swap the feat...<running to Fred to exchange PA to Precision> ;-)
Reading tomes from old toons will not hurt me, too, right? ;-)

unbongwah and Tilomere - thank you very much for taking your time and all explanations you gave to me. Slowly, it all become more clearly to me. And I see how much do I still have to learn. I'm ok with that, especially having the possibililty to ask more experienced players for help. Respect.

PS: so good to have that free chance to swap the feat...<running to Fred to exchange PA to Precision> ;-)
Reading tomes from old toons will not hurt me, too, right? ;-)

UPDATE! - I couldn't swap the feat :-( I wanted to exchange PA to Precision but there was no Precision feat listed at all :-/
So I leveled on 3 and took Cleave. Then I visited Fred again and swapped Cleave to Precision. Is it good or a mistake? And do you think I can swap PA later to sth else?

[unbongwah]

I wanted to exchange PA to Precision but there was no Precision feat listed at all :-/
So I leveled on 3 and took Cleave. Then I visited Fred again and swapped Cleave to Precision. Is it good or a mistake? And do you think I can swap PA later to sth else?

Precision requires BAB 1; at lvl 1 as rog 1 you have BAB 0, which is why you can't swap PA for Precision. You could swap PA for THF if your base STR was at least 15.

[supps2]

Requester wanted a deep gnome ITR melee build which got Artificer PL and didn't have to LR +1 to get rid of wizard level. Here's what I came up with:

DG Khopengineer
9/8/3 Artificer/Fighter/Wizard
True Neutral Deep Gnome


Level Order

1. Wizard          6. Artificer      11. Artificer      16. Fighter
2. Artificer       7. Fighter        12. Fighter        17. Fighter
3. Artificer       8. Fighter        13. Fighter        18. Artificer
4. Artificer       9. Artificer      14. Fighter        19. Wizard
5. Artificer      10. Artificer      15. Fighter        20. Wizard


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        11       +2       4: INT
Dexterity       11       +2       8: INT
Constitution    16       +5      12: INT
Intelligence    20       +2      16: INT
Wisdom          10       +2      20: INT
Charisma         8       +2      24: INT
                                 28: INT

Skills
          W  A  A  A  A  A  F  F  A  A  A  F  F  F  F  F  F  A  W  W
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Spellcr   4        3  1  1  1  1     2  1              1  1  3  2  2  23
Disable      5  1  1  1  1        3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    2  3  1  1  1  1        3  1  1  ½  1½ 1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      2     4  1  1  1        2  2  1     1  1½ 1½ 1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       2  1  3  1  1  1        3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo            3  5  1           4  1                    5        19
Heal      2              2     1        2                              7
Balance   2                 3              2                           7
Jump                           5                                       5
Tumble    2                                                            2
Repair                                  1                              1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         28  9  9 10 10 10  8  9 11 11 11  9  9  9  9 10 10 12 10 10

Feats

 1        : Single Weapon Fighting
 1 Wizard : Mental Toughness OR Quicken Spell
 3        : Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
 5 Arti   : Weapon Focus: Slashing
 6        : Insightful Reflexes
 7 Fighter: Power Attack
 8 Fighter: Cleave
 9        : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Arti   : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Great Cleave
13 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15        : Precision
15 Fighter: Greater Single Weapon Fighting
17 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
18        : Toughness OR Improved Mental Toughness
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Epic Toughness OR Heavy Armor Combatant OR Epic Mental Toughness
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic   : Tactical Combatant
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Kensei (35 AP)

Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
Extra Action Boost III, Weapon Group Specialization, Exotic Weapon Mastery, Haste Boost III
Weapon Group Specialization, Ascetic Training: Conditioning I
Weapon Group Specialization, Shattering Strike I
Weapon Group Specialization, Strike at the Heart, Opportunity Attack, Liquid Courage
A Good Death: Melee, Weapon Master, One with the Blade, Deadly Strike, Keen Edge

Eldritch Knight (Wizard) (14 AP)

Eldritch Strike, Spellsword: Acid
Improved Mage Armor III, Toughness I
Improved Shield III, Martial Training
Arcane Barrier III

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Tenacious Defense III

Harper Agent (12 AP)

Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
Versatile Adept II, Know the Angles III
Strategic Combat

Deep Gnome (6 AP)

Wariness, Intelligence, Wariness II
Illusory Escape
Permanent Blur


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Constitution
Lay Waste
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Acid (Tier 4 Draconic)
Sacred Ground (Tier 3 Crusader)
Consecration (Tier 2 Crusader)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

Highlights: INT-based (Harper) SWF khopesh* + Runearm build - T5 Kensei, Tenacious Defense (+20% HPs), Arcane Barrier, lvl 4 arty spell slot (Armor of Speed). Heroic heals come from UMD or pots; epic heals from usual ED Twists. [EDIT: Dreadnought is best for epic melee DPS, of course; this build also works fine in Crusader.] At lvl 29+, use Dire Charge -> Energy Burst -> Consecration -> Cleaves for trash mobs.

EDIT: originally I was going to take DG SLAs (Color Spray + PK), but changed my mind; not sure I can get DCs high enough to make them useful. Feel free to ditch, say, EK and try them for yourself, though.

EDIT: forgot to list Enhancement order, but Harper first, then Kensei, then SD, finally EK + DG as you can afford the APs.

*Dwarven axe or bastard sword works instead, of course, but you'll have to tweak feat or leveling order b/c they require base STR 13 (khopesh doesn't). Also for d.axe take Headman's Chop from LD instead of extra +1 CON.

Just capped this right before the downtime. To cap 20 was very easy. The early epic's were more difficult, but I was a little under geared. The mid to cap epic's were easy, I have better gear.

Thanks, unbongwah.

[unbongwah]

This is a build concept which has been broached a couple of times: INT-based cleric / Swashbuckler.

• Why Swashbuckler? Because it's the most front-loaded of the melee PrEs, IMO, requiring only 3-5 bard lvls to gain most of its goodies (depending how high up the PrE you want to go), leaving plenty of levels free for other class(es). [The second most front-loaded melee PrE now is Kensei, but you need at least 6 ftr lvls if you want Strike w/No Thought.]
• Why INT-based rather than STR+CHA using Divine Might? More skill pts, higher DPS via Harper (Know the Angles + Strategic Combat), higher Reflex saves via Insightful Reflexes. INT & CON become your primary stats, with CHA & WIS just for TUs & spellcasting respectively, and just enough STR or DEX to take Power Attack or Precision (or you can skip them and dump both stats).

The drawbacks:

• You're restricted to Finesseable weapons, light armor, and bucklers (if you use shields at all), so it's a lot squishier than, say, Axel's battlecleric.
• Feat-starved unless you splash fighter (or maybe wizard), but then you lose Evasion & trap skills. At a minimum, you want SWF x3, Quicken, and Empower Heal; after that, it's a question of whether you prioritize melee DPS or healing / spellcasting. Frankly, I'm not even gonna try to list all possible permutations of feats; I'll just list some options.

Radiant Marauder
15/3/2 Cleric/Bard/Rogue
Chaotic Good Human


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Cleric         11. Cleric         16. Cleric
2. Bard            7. Cleric         12. Cleric         17. Cleric
3. Bard            8. Cleric         13. Cleric         18. Cleric
4. Bard            9. Rogue          14. Cleric         19. Cleric
5. Cleric         10. Cleric         15. Cleric         20. Cleric


Stats
               28pt     32pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8                4: INT
Dexterity       12       12       +1       8: INT
Constitution    14       16               12: INT
Intelligence    18       18       +2      16: INT
Wisdom          10       10               20: INT
Charisma         8        8               24: INT
                                          28: INT

Skills
          R  B  B  B  C  C  C  C  R  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent      2  4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      1                 2  5        1  1  1  1  1  2  2  2  2  2  23
Spellcr      3  1  3  1  1  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1        3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo   4        1              7                                   12
Balance   4  1  1  1                                                   7
Spot      4                                                            4
Jump      4                                                            4
Hide      4                                                            4
Move Si   4                                                            4
Swim      4                                                            4
Tumble    4                                                            4
Haggle    4                                                            4
Bluff     2                                                            2
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         52 11 11 12  8  8  8  9 15  9  9  9  9  9  9 10 10 10 10 10


Feats

 1        : Single Weapon Fighting
 1 Human  : Insightful Reflexes
 3        : Precision
 5 Deity  : Follower of: Sovereign Host
 6        : Empower Healing Spell
 9        : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
11 Deity  : Unyielding Sovereignty
12        : Improved Critical: Piercing OR Maximize Spell
15        : Quicken Spell
18        : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical OR Wellspring of Power
24 Epic   : Intensify Spell OR Maximize Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting OR Epic Spell Power: Positive
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting OR Hellball
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Blinding Speed OR Watchful Eye
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Fire OR Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Radiant Servant (32 AP)

Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empower Healing
Extra Turning III, Wand Mastery III, Bliss III, Altruism III
Improved Turning I
Intense Healing I, Unyielding Sovereignty
Endless Turning I, Incredible Healing I, Divine Health
Positive Energy Aura

Warpriest (22 AP)

Smite Foe, Resilience of Battle, Sanctuary
Toughness I, Sacred Touch III
Smite Weakness, Wall of Steel III, Inflame III, Inflame: Saving Throws II
Inflame: Energy Absorption III
Ameliorating Strike

Swashbuckler (15 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling
On Your Toes I, Blow By Blow: Melee III
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
Elegant Footwork, Arcane Marauder, Two Steps Ahead

Harper Agent (8 AP)

Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
Know the Angles III

Human (3 AP)

Damage Boost
Improved Recovery


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader

Bane of Undeath, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked
Consecration III, Flames of Purity II
Sacred Ground, Empyrean Magic, Blessed Blades
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Celestial Champion
Strike Down

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Energy Burst: Fire (Tier 4 Draconic)
Haste Boost (Tier 3 Dreadnought)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Drow version would start DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 20 and lose a feat; but if you use short swords, you could take Righteous Weapons from Warpriest for a little extra DPS. As I said, if you decided to skip Precision for another metamagic, you could dump-stat DEX.

Enhancements: the must-haves on this build are Positive Energy Aura (32 APs), Arcane Marauder (11 APs), Know the Angles (6-8 APs), and either Two Steps Ahead or Strategic Combat II for INT to dmg. Which leaves 25 to 29 APs for other things; you can see here I took Ameliorating Strike (which benefits nicely from all the extra doublestrike in Crusader) and human Dmg Boost + Imp Recovery. I tried to put together a heroic leveling guide, but it's too complicated; because I keep resetting and rebalancing Enhancements based on what abilities you have access to. So I'll just say that at lvl 12, you'll want 32 RS / 13 SB (TSA) / 3 Harper (SC I) and build from there.

Divine Crusader offers the best mix of melee DPS and healing for this build, IMO, particularly since the extra caster levels apply to your auras as well. For something more melee-DPS-centric, Dreadnought is the go-to ED, of course. If you find yourself too squishy, there's always Sentinel...

EDIT: for weapons I went with Piercing which provides the greatest number of named options, particularly with better-than-normal crit profiles. However, if you're planning to use Dreadnought, then consider using either handaxes+Headmans Chop or light maces+Pulverizer for better crit damage. In particular, Skullsmasher is 14-18/x4 19-20/x6 with Swashbuckling, IC:Blunt, Pulverizer, Overwhelming Crit, and Devastating Crit all stacking; that's pretty sweet until you've got TF weapon(s).

Healing abilities affected just by Positive Spellpower: Ameliorating Strike, Sacred Ground
Healing abilities affected by Pos Spellpower and Empower Heal only: Heal / Mass Heal, RS aura, Cocoon, Renewal, Light the Dark
Healing abilities affected by Pos Spellpower and all metamagics: Cures / Mass Cures (inc. EA MCMW SLA), RS bursts

So how many metamagics you should take largely depends on how many of your healing abilities you want to be able to max out Spellpower.

[Tangoro]

Hi,

I've just returned to the game after a few years absence to start a static group with 5 friends. With all the changes I am trying to narrow down my options. My friends are playing Paladin, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric and Bard, and will likely not multiclass much. I have VIP access and expect to primarily fill a trapper role in the party. I am also thinking to be more melee focused than ranged, mostly for group dynamic reasons. Looking for advice and ideas on how to achieve these build goals:

1. Fun to play from low levels, we will not level so fast.
2. Good enough trap skills for all content lvl 1-20
3. Melee focus, as much as I can without sacrificing trap skills.
4. Not too squishy
5. Some ranged option when it is needed

My current idea is to create a Gnome (never played on before) that is INT based. I guess that most likely rogue should be the core of my build, but I am not sure whether I should go pure Rogue or splash some other class. I am wondering if I can come up with a concept around the Gnomes racial weapons, using either light pick or short swords for instance for melee and light repeating X-bow for ranged. I noticed there is a new harper tree that has some synergy with INT focus, so I am considering that to get +INT to hit and +1.5 * INT to damage. If I go pure rogue I guess filling the assassin tree would make sense for melee focus, and the rest going to mechanic/gnome/harper trees.

I consider splashing some ranger levels for TWF focus (Tempest), or perhaps bard for swashbuckler tree, or fighter for some kensai stuff. But I am not sure how much I can break up the pure rogue build without gimping my trap skills. I really have no idea what my trap skills need to be to fill my role. I also don't know if SWF or TWF makes most sense for my build.

Feels like I could look at these enhancement trees for years without being able to reach a conclusion. So many options are tempting, but I won't have 250 AP.

[unbongwah]

The obvious choice is an INT Assassin like slarden's build. The biggest downside is stat requirements; namely it's tough to hit DEX 21 for Improved Sneak Attack on a first-life build unless you either buy, say, a +6 DEX tome (which I'm reluctant to tell a newbie to do) or put a lot of build pts into DEX (which kinda defeats the purpose of being "INT-based"). Also Assassin bonuses are geared towards daggers & kukris, so gnome weapon bonuses are useless there. EDIT: DEX Assassins are more first-life friendly, such as...err...slarden's other build.

It's a little unconventional, but you could do an INT-based variant on Tempest Trapmonkey; this would also be the easiest way to add some ranged DPS (Manyshot FTW). You could even use gnomish weapons (light picks or short swords), although that's kind of a flavor choice, as khopeshes would still be better (no STR pre-req for the khopesh feat, thankfully). Maybe you could do something with the gnome SLAs (Color Spray and/or Dragonmarks)? Hmm, have to think about that...

Finally, there are INT-based Swashbuckler builds like Shadow Bard and my 12/6/2 build using handaxes. Although that might seem redundant if one of your friends is playing a pure bard. Swashbuckling also get crit bonuses with thrown weapons and Kensei adds Ranged Power these days, so that's...kinda ranged DPS?

[Tangoro]

Thank you so much for this information, it really helps me narrow down my options and it is great to see the details in real builds from people that know the game well!

It's a little unconventional, but you could do an INT-based variant on Tempest Trapmonkey; this would also be the easiest way to add some ranged DPS (Manyshot FTW). You could even use gnomish weapons (light picks or short swords), although that's kind of a flavor choice, as khopeshes would still be better (no STR pre-req for the khopesh feat, thankfully). Maybe you could do something with the gnome SLAs (Color Spray and/or Dragonmarks)? Hmm, have to think about that...

Particularly curious about this suggestion. Wondering about many things though:

- Khopesh is 19-20/x3, Light pick is 20/x4, with the competency bonus to threat range from Gnome it would be 19-20/x4. Why is the Khopesh still better? Synergies with other effects that increase crit range/multiplier? d8 instead of d4 dice? With the various damage boosts from Gnome the khopesh is still clearly better?
- For trapping skills, is high int and full ranks in search + disable device "enough" ? Will I need enhancements which improve trap skills as well? I am wondering if I should do more rogue and less ranger compared to the tempest trapmonkey. I read somewhere on the forum that there are traps where the "rogue" needs to tumble past the trap first to get to the box, to be able to do such things reliably a build might require more rogue levels to get things like improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense?
- Is a bow clearly better than light repeating x-bow with the increased threat range and some damage boosts from Gnome tree? I understand manyshot only works with bows, but how about when that is on cooldown?
- If taking less ranger levels and more rogue, will the higher sneak attack bonus factor in to give better DPS?
- Where does a build like this get its survival from? Dodge? AC?

Sorry for all the questions... trying to read a lot but I guess I mostly just need to play the game more to understand better what works and not.

Thanks again for the help!

[unbongwah]

Updated version of this build: tweaked stats, added lvl 29 & 30 feats. Posting for my own reference for my next SDK ITR.

SDK Acrobat
Rogue 20
True Neutral Shadar-kai


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        13       +5       4: DEX
Dexterity       19       +2       8: DEX
Constitution    16       +3      12: DEX
Intelligence    15       +3      16: DEX
Wisdom           8       +2      20: DEX
Charisma         6       +2      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Bluff     4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Hide      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Move Si   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Tumble    2     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  2  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Concent   2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Heal      1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1  11
Balance                                          1  1  1  1  1  1  1   7
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         40 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12


Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 3        : Cleave
 6        : Great Cleave
 9        : Two Handed Fighting
10 Rogue  : Defensive Roll
12        : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
13 Rogue  : Improved Evasion
15        : Improved Two Handed Fighting
16 Rogue  : Opportunist
18        : Greater Two Handed Fighting
19 Rogue  : Crippling Strike OR Skill Mastery
21 Epic   : Improved Sneak Attack
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Watchful Eye OR Precision
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


Enhancements (80 AP)

Thief-Acrobat (41 AP)

Staff Control, Stick Fighting, Tumbler, Kip Up, Cartwheel Charge, Followthrough
Thief Acrobatics III, Fast Movement
Quick Strike III
Improved Glancing Blows II, Shadow Dodge III, Sweeping Strikes III
Improved Defensive Roll III, No Mercy III, Staff Lunge I
Staff Specialization, Spinning Staff Wall, Vault

Assassin (23 AP)

Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness
Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Sneak Attack Training, Dexterity
Execute

Shadar-kai (8 AP)

Shadar-kai Grit, Dexterity, Shadow Phase
(none)
Ghostly Essence III

Harper Agent (8 AP)

Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles III


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Critical Damage II
Lightning Mace
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz, Pulverizer

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury) OR Wild Weapons (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Hail of Blows (Tier 2 Grandmaster) OR Lithe (Tier 2 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

Listed Twists are a wishlist; actual Twists will be less impressive, as I only have 21 or 22 Fate pts on this toon. Oh well!

[unbongwah]

- Khopesh is 19-20/x3, Light pick is 20/x4, with the competency bonus to threat range from Gnome it would be 19-20/x4. Why is the Khopesh still better? Synergies with other effects that increase crit range/multiplier? d8 instead of d4 dice? With the various damage boosts from Gnome the khopesh is still clearly better?

Base damage: as you said, khopesh is d8 vs light pick is d4; so that's 4.5 vs 2.5 avg dmg per hit. But if you max out Gnomish Weapon Training, light picks gain +6 dmg, so that means they win, right? Not so fast: you also need to take the +[W] modifiers into account. +5[W] weapons are the norm in endgame; so by then it becomes 5 * 4.5 (22.5 avg base dmg) vs 5 * 2.5 + 6 (18.5 avg base dmg). So while you can gain a higher base dmg mod in heroics with racial weapons (if you max out the line), that advantage disappears in higher epics. Short swords are 5 * 3.5 + 6 = 23.5 avg base dmg, so they would actually come out one point ahead; but then we move onto...

Crit profile: first off, remember that gnome crit range bonus doesn't stack with other Competence bonuses like Holy Sword, Crit Rage, Adv Sneak Atk (DWS), etc. So if we're talking Tempests, khopesh is 16-20/x4 (+15 effective hits) while light pick is 18-20/x5 (+12 effective hits) and short sword is 16-20/x3 (+10 effective hits) once all crit bonuses are in place, putting khopesh ahead (same as always ).

AP cost: 17 APs you're spending in the gnome racial tree are 17 APs you're not spending in your other PrEs. Tempest and DWS are both pretty strong; you could easily spend most if not all of your APs on them. Probably in this case, you would ditch some DWS APs (like Adv Sneak Atk since it's redundant) in order to spend 17 in gnome.

- For trapping skills, is high int and full ranks in search + disable device "enough" ? Will I need enhancements which improve trap skills as well?

That all depends on your gear & buffs. Fortunately, if you're running with a bard, they'll have Inspire Competence and Heroism / Good Hope / Gtr Heroism to help out. Don't forget about Skill Boost from DWS too.

- Is a bow clearly better than light repeating x-bow with the increased threat range and some damage boosts from Gnome tree? I understand manyshot only works with bows, but how about when that is on cooldown?

Outside of Manyshot, bows have a much lower rate of fire than repeaters; so ignoring other factors (like AA bonuses), repeaters are better.

- If taking less ranger levels and more rogue, will the higher sneak attack bonus factor in to give better DPS?

Dipping below rgr 18 costs you access to Mark of the Hunted and Whirlwind; I highly doubt a few extra rog lvls (and the sneak atk which goes with them) will compensate for that.

- Where does a build like this get its survival from? Dodge? AC?

All of the above, ideally.

Now, all of that being said, you can still do creative builds if you aren't focused on max DPS. So let's take a look at one such gimpy flavor build designed to use gnome weapons (lt repeaters + picks or short swords) and uses Color Spray for good measure.

Mini-Harper Tempest
18/1/1 Ranger/Fighter/Rogue
True Neutral Gnome


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Ranger         11. Ranger         16. Ranger
2. Ranger          7. Ranger         12. Ranger         17. Ranger
3. Ranger          8. Ranger         13. Ranger         18. Ranger
4. Fighter         9. Ranger         14. Ranger         19. Ranger
5. Ranger         10. Ranger         15. Ranger         20. Ranger


Stats
               28pt     32pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength         7        7                4: INT
Dexterity       13       13                8: INT
Constitution    14       16               12: INT
Intelligence    20       20       +2      16: INT
Wisdom           8        8               20: INT
Charisma         8        8               24: INT
                                          28: INT

Skills
         Rg Rn Rn Fi Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn Rn
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   2  3  1     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      1  3  2     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo   4     1        2  2  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1     2  1     1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Hide      4  1  1     1     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  3  1  1  1  23
Move Si   4     1                 1  2  2  2  2  2  2  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4        3  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Balance   4                                                  1  1  1   7
Swim      4                                                            4
Tumble    4                                                            4
Haggle    4                                                            4
Jump      2                                            1               3
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         52 11 11  8 12 12 12 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 13 14 14 14 14 14


Feats

 1        : Rapid Reload
 2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
 3        : Exotic Weapon: Rpt Lt Crossbow
 4 Fighter: Point Blank Shot
 6        : Precision
 7 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
 9        : Improved Critical: Piercing
12        : Insightful Reflexes
12 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
15        : Empower Healing Spell OR Improved Critical: Ranged
17 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
18        : Quicken Spell
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Spell Focus: Illusion
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Doubleshot OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   :
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth


Enhancements (80 AP)

Tempest (41 AP)

Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind
Improved Defense III, Whirling Blades
Improved Parry III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
Storm Dancer, Whirling Blades
Storm Tempest, Elaborate Parry II, The Growing Storm III, Whirling Blades
Dual Perfection, Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III

Gnome (17 AP)

Gnomish Perserverance
Wand and Scroll Mastery III, Gnomish Weapon Training
Color Spray III, Permanent Blur, Gnomish Weapon Training
Illusion Focus III, Gnomish Weapon Training
Gnomish Weapon Training

Harper Agent (12 AP)

Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
Versatile Adept II, Know the Angles III
Strategic Combat

Deepwood Stalker (9 AP)

Far Shot, Sneak Attack
Favored Defense I, Stealthy III
Skill Boost III

Mechanic (1 AP)

Arbalester

Leveling Guide

Hrp0 Agent of Good I; Hrp1 Strategic Combat
Hrp1 Harper Enchantment; Hrp2 Know the Angles I, II, III
Hrp2 Versatile Adept I, II; Hrp3 Strategic Combat
Mec0 Arbalester; DS0 Far Shot; Gno0 Gnomish Perserverance; Gno1 Gnomish Weapon Training
Gno1 Wand and Scroll Mastery I, II, III; Gno2 Permanent Blur
Gno2 Color Spray I, II, III; Gno2 Gnomish Weapon Training
Gno3 Gnomish Weapon Training; Gno3 Illusion Focus I, II
Gno3 Illusion Focus III; Gno4 Gnomish Weapon Training; DS1 Stealthy I
DS1 Stealthy II, III; DS1 Favored Defense I; DS0 Sneak Attack
DS2 Skill Boost I, II, III; Tem0 Shield of Whirling Steel
Tem1 Whirling Blades; Tem1 Improved Defense I, II
Tem0 Tempest; Tem2 Haste Boost I, II, III
Tem2 Whirling Blades; Tem3 Storm Dancer
Tem3 Whirling Blades; Tem2 Improved Parry I, II
Tem2 Improved Parry III; Tem0 Graceful Death; Tem1 Improved Defense III; Tem0 Deflect Arrows
Tem4 Storm Tempest; Tem4 The Growing Storm I, II
Tem4 The Growing Storm III; Tem4 Whirling Blades; Tem4 Elaborate Parry I
Tem4 Elaborate Parry II; Tem5 Dual Perfection; Tem5 Dance of Death I
Tem5 Dance of Death II, III; Tem5 Cuts: A Thousand Cuts I, II
Tem0 Whirlwind; Tem5 Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III; Tem5 Whirling Blades


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Constitution
Damage Boost III, Constitution
Critical Damage III
Anvil of Thunder
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (22 fate points)

Balanced Attacks (Tier 3 Primal)
Pin (Tier 2 Shiradi)
School Specialist: Illusion (Tier 2 Magister)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Basically I give up a lot of DWS Enhancements to invest in Harper + gnome instead. I also backload Tempest enhancements much further than I normally would; truth be told, the sensible thing to do would be a full respec at level 12 to focus on Tempest+Harper, then invest in gnome+DWS. Of course, the sensible thing is not to make an INT-based ranger using lt picks and repeaters too, so you can see how far we're deviating from conventional wisdom here...

If you don't have a +2 INT tome, just drop the extra skill pts from Balance and Move Silently or Hide. As for named weapons you can use:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Rep...ight_Crossbows
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Short_Swords

Unfortunately, there are no named light picks; crafted or lootgen are your only options.

[Tangoro]

Thank you so much unbongwah, this is incredibly helpful!

I will try the build you have specced out for me, as long as I can do trapping well enough I don't mind being sub optimal on dps. Still wondering about a couple things:

- Why 7 STR instead of leaving it at 6?
- Since I won't be taking any fighter enhancements, would I be better off with 1 level of artificer instead of fighter, which would give me both light-repeater proficiency and rapid reload?

[unbongwah]

- Why 7 STR instead of leaving it at 6?
- Since I won't be taking any fighter enhancements, would I be better off with 1 level of artificer instead of fighter, which would give me both light-repeater proficiency and rapid reload?

1. I only needed DEX 13 for Precision which left a pt leftover, so I put it into STR. Could just go into DEX to make it 14.
2. You could certainly take an arty splash instead; you didn't mention if you had the class. [Note Artificer isn't free for VIPs.] However, in that case I would skip rogue (since arty gives you trap skills) and either take arty 2 so you can use Runearms with repeaters or keep the ftr splash for another feat. Or maybe barb splash for +10% runspeed.

[axel15810]

I'm looking for a DPS thrower build. What is the top DPS thrower builds out there now? Anyone give me a link to one? Thanks.

[Tangoro]

1. I only needed DEX 13 for Precision which left a pt leftover, so I put it into STR. Could just go into DEX to make it 14.
2. You could certainly take an arty splash instead; you didn't mention if you had the class. [Note Artificer isn't free for VIPs.] However, in that case I would skip rogue (since arty gives you trap skills) and either take arty 2 so you can use Runearms with repeaters or keep the ftr splash for another feat. Or maybe barb splash for +10% runspeed.

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I will start with 1 artificer level and then go pure ranger, leaving the last splash level open until I have considered the options for that more closely. Thanks again for all the help, now I can stop thinking and start playing.

[unbongwah]

I'm looking for a DPS thrower build. What is the top DPS thrower builds out there now? Anyone give me a link to one? Thanks.

Monk-based shuriken builds are still your best bet. See jakeelala's thread.

[JasonJi72]

Yeah, crazy I know. I was thinking about the VERY first character I tried this game with. A dex based rogue with a shield (it worked on NWN1). After looking over the enhancements, it just might be possible to build now. I am currently trying to work something out on the planner, and would like some inputs/advice.

This is a flavor/test build, but why not make it viable? I would make this character as a second life or first life alt. So basically, it is a first life build, since I won't bother with giving it any greensteel (way to hard to get shards now).

Dragonmarked Halfling
Leaning towards 12 Rogue, 6 Paladin, 2 Fighter for saves, feats, skill points, etc...
I can get or have +2 tomes.
Has to be primarily a sword and board melee type.
Dex based (it is a halfling... duh).

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Jyn.

[unbongwah]

My suggestion is to build around Swashbuckler instead. See this post. EDIT: ftr splash for extra feat(s) would certainly help, although it means giving up either lvl 3 spells or extra sneak atks.

[JasonJi72]

My suggestion is to build around Swashbuckler instead. See this post. EDIT: ftr splash for extra feat(s) would certainly help, although it means giving up either lvl 3 spells or extra sneak atks.

That looks pretty good, and is close to what I am trying to do. It is something to think about. I do have some reservations about that build for what I had in mind.

1. I have always thought Coup de Grace was kinda cheesy, but then again, I also refuse to play Warlocks. *shrugs*
2. I really want to have high saves. Originally I was going to take 8 fighter instead of 6 paladin and take feats to boost my saves, but I realized I could get more from Pally and keep 12 Rogue for Tier 3 Core's.
3. I kinda wanted to try out Vangard, and I thought it would be cool with a rogue. Stuns, knockdown, diplomacy, bluff, sap, etc...

The build you linked does look good though. Thank you for your cooperation and support.

[unbongwah]

The main downside to Vanguard is the attack speed bonuses are backloaded in the cores; with less than 12 ftr or pally lvls, you will only get +5% atk speed from lvl 6 core. Compared to, say, TWF rog 12 / ftr 6 builds, that will feel like pretty weaksauce DPS.

Whereas if you did something like, say, rog 12 / bard 5 / ftr 3, you could still pick up some VG abilities like Stunning Shield or +10% shield bashing while benefiting from GSWF.

[Aedyn]

Monk-based shuriken builds are still your best bet. See jakeelala's thread.

I've really been scratching my head the last few days about TR one of my characters into either a Thrower or X-Bower. Both look fun, but I have a very limited amount of playtime.
What's a good X-Bower build I could use to compare and contrast?

[unbongwah]

What's a good X-Bower build I could use to compare and contrast?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ue-the-SA-king