Ranged combat

[Darkwolf]

This is where I disagree with you. An archer should always outclass a melee fighter. It not only makes sense in the real world, but it should in game as well. Killing from a distance is faster than melee. An archer should be able to kill one or two creatures from a distance before melee even engages the enemy. It takes time to run up to a mob and start swinging, while an archer just fires away. Common Sense in the real world, NON-EXISTENT in game.

...I can do that now, so I guess ranged combat is fine as is.

The problem that most people have with their archer is that they need to specify what their role will be within the party. Use of a paralyzer, or cursespewer, or destruction bow will aid the tanks more then the archer going for kills. Until the Devs fix this, use your archer in support of the tanks.

Uh, yeah. That's basically what I told the OP on page one...

Legolas outkilled Gimli as an archer vs. melee.

And here, you lose all credibility (only IMO of course). Lord of the Rings has exactly nothing to do with combat in D&D and by extension DDO.

[salmag]

And here, you lose all credibility (only IMO of course). Lord of the Rings has exactly nothing to do with combat in D&D and by extension DDO.

You are missing the point of that comment. It has nothing to do with the game or the movie. It more or less illustrates the ease at which an archer, ranged fighter, little boy with a slingshot, etc..., should defeat more opponents than a melee fighter, boxer, etc... I could have said a gunfighter in the old west can kill more opponents then a knife fighter can. If you want more examples, I'll provide... historical (The battle of Gettysburg - Picketts charge), confederate soldiers get gunned down as they march forward; another movie reference (The Last Samurai), during the battles riflemen took down the charging samurai; and I'll give one more historical reference, (the battle of Rouarks Drift) 10s of thousands of zulu charge, while most and get gunned down trying to overtake the tiny outpost, which survived. Ranged always outclassed melee; lastly, in video games (Halo, Doom, etc...) shooting from a distance gets more kills then attacking by hand.

Now I'll reference the game:

The fact is that melee in DDO does more damage than ranged, they get less downtime between feats than range, they are not limited by weapon type damage, are not limited by ammunition amount, and have more backpack space because they don't have to carry so much ammo.

Can you give a comparison in any genre (movie, game, history, etc) where a ranged character does not out kill melee characters?

[Gimpster]

Can you give a comparison in any genre (movie, game, history, etc) where a ranged character does not out kill melee characters?

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Princess Bride, etc etc. Any heroic fantasy, basically.

[Asal]

Hopefully someday the developers will make ranged combat worthwhile again but it is not now

[XFracture]

I don't think I've ever asked, nor been in a group where the leader asked the RANGER to tank. UNLESS he happened to be the only poor sot in the group/raid who knew how to use a melee weapon.

I'd sooner have a stoneskinned sorcerror tank then a ranger. UNLESS the ranger is actually built for tanking, in which case let 'em do his thing.

[Naso24]

I guess I've sort of accepted that my ranger will fill the duties of a rogue (1 level), and be great with bows for 20 seconds out of 120. The rate of fire is a disappointment.

I do quite a bit of damage at level 9, mostly due to ITWF and weapon effects like holy-pure good. But I see that I am quickly becoming secondary. Even with a potential strength of 24 (with +3 tome and +6 STR item by level 14), I don't expect to keep pace even close with barbarians and fighters using rage, weapon specialization, power attack, etc.

It would be nice to have an attack rate a little more in tune with the way combat works, and the HPs enemies have at higher levels.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Princess Bride, etc etc. Any heroic fantasy, basically.

I dunno, Indy shot the scimitar wielder in the Bazaar pretty easily.

[Puke]

I find it interesting that I'm perceiving that many feel that melee is sacred. That is, nothing better out kill it! If more people are playing ranged combatants than melee combatants, better pull back the rules so that we force more to play melee combatants. In the real world, if the tactics allow you to kill from a distance, you go with that in lieu of getting up close and getting your nose bloodied. It's kind of backwards here. But here, there is a consensus that the meat-and-potatoes is melee. And it is by a wide margin.

Killing at a distance is really the first choice in tactics. That is why firearms have supplanted the sword. Missiles are on a tier above the gun. Aircraft are the first line of defense and attack from the fleet, etc... And for a historical reference to how powerful ranged fighting can be all you have to do is look at the Huns. Albeit, they did it on horseback which brings into play maneuverability, but they relied on the bow and basically had the Romans quivering and I think have controlled a larger land-area than any group in history.

In DDO Rangers have never been able to buy special-purpose arrows such as shock, acid or what-have-you yet casters have always been able to buy oodles of scrolls to help in their role. (Though yeah, some of that has been cut back of late.) On the one hand people scream that ranged fighting should not out kill melee yet for a long while people would stand around while the caster cast his Cloudkill from a distance to wait for everything to drop. If you ran Invaders a couple months ago, that was par for the course. So which is it going to be? Up close or safe from a distance? Or is it just that people do not like the bow and do not want it killing things? Add to that the fact that the bows available in this game are laughable compared to what is available to the melee and yeah, this is a melee world. There is nothing akin to a Vorpal in this game for bows or akin to PK, Finger-of-Death, etc in bow-form either.

And so, Rangers were graciously given the TWF Feats as well as the Ranged Feats. But this is because ranged fighting was unbelievably castrated and Turbine really had no choice. Who in his right mind would make a Ranger who gave up TWF for Ranged fighting in this game? And Rangers still have to melee in leather jackets and pajamas though.

Yes, Rangers can be very powerful... if you concentrate on TWF and melee that is. Otherwise, people avoid inviting the Ranger to group for the most part because of the perception that it'll be a "ranged fighter" and ranged fighting truly does suck in this game.

Also, on top of the fact that ranged fighting is impotent, the quests don't really allow for that style anyway. It's double trouble for any ranged fighter.

[Nataichal]

There is one thing I have said over and over in this game.

Rangers as a class do not suck. If built and played correctly, a ranger can be by far one of the most powerful and versatile characters out there. However, most people have no clue on how to build and play a ranger. Thus, a vast percentage of the rangers people encounter suck. Hard.

Now, to address a few of the points in this thread. First, a ranger is not a term for a 'ranged combatant'. You would be better off thinking of the class as a scout. It might dispel the belief that while they could easily be quite talented with ranged weapons, it is not their only ability. If that were the case, the class would be named Archer. (And for anyone who was wondering, in historical records, archers were quite deadly..... right up to the point that the hand to hand combatants reached them. Then they'd get slaughtered.)

Yes, there are a few things that could be done to improve the ranger class SLIGHTLY. First, drop the recharge timer on Many Shot attacks. Not drastically, but 2 min is a bit long. Second, GIVE US A FREAKING RAID LOOT BOW ALREADY. (A crossbow is not a BOW). Items designed specifically for tanks, rogues, meleers, casters, they all exist. Yet not one bow. Or hell, if you're so worried about one being overpowered, I'd even be happy with some cool +5 100% returning arrows of some sort. (Note. 100%)

But back to the claims that rangers are weak, I'm confused enough to think that the posters must be non-Fernians, because, frankly, the kick ass ranger has been all the rage on our now merged server recently. My dex based halfling 13/1 ranger/rogue generally mops the floor with almost anything it faces. I almost always outkill the tanks often by large numbers, can play trapmonkey just fine, frequently play a backup healer, And pulls off a UMD that has him tossing GH and raise dead scrolls like they were cure light wounds. He solo killed the queen many times prior to the red naming of the archers, and generally does, well, whatever the heck he wants to.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the ultimate ranger is not a pure DPS ranger, though DPS is a part. Versatility is the key. A good scout is hardly one dimensional. He is able to thrive on his own.

[Aesop]

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Princess Bride, etc etc. Any heroic fantasy, basically.

Now wait a sec

Star Wars maybe but that has a formal dueling style with the lightsaber and all that.

Princess Bride there were'nt andy ranged attackers to compare it wit and Indiana Jones ... well need I point out the scene... we all know what I'm thinkin

Where main characters are Ranged attackers... well then we see a different story


Aesop

[Henrieta]

I think it's helpful having a teammate that's able to attack from a distance (less healing needed), disrupt casters, buff, and have decent hp. They definitely add to the strength of a group. As long as the party survives and has fun, what difference does it make if the group is made up of various classes. Maybe when they change the collectable system, we'll be able to get stronger arrows, such as stunning/paralyzing/bleeding/poison/charming/fear/despair, that aren't available at shops. Allowing manyshot to last a bit longer really wouldn't destroy the game either. Plus, you must admit that their summoned pets are in dire need of actually becoming dire and gaining utility in battle. Random thoughts, sorry.

[MDS_Geist]

I dunno, Indy shot the scimitar wielder in the Bazaar pretty easily.

Funny story about that...there is a story a while ago about how it was supposed to be a very involved fight scene. But Harrison Ford has been having some digestive issues that day and simply couldn't do it without risking some rather embarrassing consequences. So it was changed at the last minute Indy just shooting him and walking off so he could seek some relief.

So melee would have won out there also...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you want to specialize in ranged why not do RANGEr? Sorry but if you see a cleric you expect a heal, wizard a nuke or CC... I see a fighter I expect them to keep a bit of aggro, sure you can keep aggro with ranged if group waits around for you to build it up. It isn't effective.

This toon was an experiment, but the answer is because a fighter gets a combat feat every two lvls, plus the feat at every three lvls that everyone gets.......that's way more feats than a Ranger will ever get.

Rangers are good and have more to them then just bow combat abilities......but I was trying to see just how good I could make a dedicated archer by taking as many ranged combat feats as possible.....still might take one lvl of ranger.....but not right now (should have done it first, if that is what I was going to do)

[Ziggy]

Funny story about that...there is a story a while ago about how it was supposed to be a very involved fight scene. But Harrison Ford has been having some digestive issues that day and simply couldn't do it without risking some rather embarrassing consequences. So it was changed at the last minute Indy just shooting him and walking off so he could seek some relief.

So melee would have won out there also...

I was under the impression that was just an adlib cause it was a long day.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Here's the thing you all seem to miss...

If ranged attack was on par with melee, it would totally outclass melee (especially if a hybrid class/fighter can achieve this).

Think about it.

You can now stand back and kill just as well as a good melee characer but from a safe distance?

Rediculous.

However, I am in complete agreement that the ranged bugs/animation need attention. It really makes ranged combat un-fun.

Legalos (sp) did it!
There must be a happy medium we can come up with. There are tons of melee feats that can make a melle efighter truly awesome.
But my maxed out truly awesome ranged archer cannot even match mediocre no feat dexed mellee fighting.......that ain't right.

[Aesop]

I was under the impression that was just an adlib cause it was a long day.

yeah I heard the same thing... though I did hear he was under the weather. The staff laughed so hard though they decided to go with it.

Aesop

[KALASHTAR]

ranged combat is a tradeoff, you don't do as much damage, but your enemy can't harm you, one of my toons is a thrown weapons specialist I get criticism for that too, too many people want everybody to play the game thier way, and if listened to, everyone would have all the same stuff and all the same stats, we wouldn't need so many spells (clerics would only need 4 spells). But the fact is that there are a lot of different ways to skin a kobald, no particular way is right or wrong, fastest isn't always best, running thru a trap isn't always the best way to disarm it. I mean my big complaint is that people are just achieving and noone really tries to "play" the game.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

ranged combat is a tradeoff, you don't do as much damage, but your enemy can't harm you, one of my toons is a thrown weapons specialist I get criticism for that too, too many people want everybody to play the game thier way, and if listened to, everyone would have all the same stuff and all the same stats, we wouldn't need so many spells (clerics would only need 4 spells). But the fact is that there are a lot of different ways to skin a kobald, no particular way is right or wrong, fastest isn't always best, running thru a trap isn't always the best way to disarm it. I mean my big complaint is that people are just achieving and noone really tries to "play" the game.

You don't need to be a Kalashtar to figure out the Ogres want you to close and mellee.

If manyshot could be used more often it would go a long way toward making ranged combat more viable......but we do need a change that works for throwing and crossbows as well........I think just increasing the rate of fire a little and making sure it continues to increas as yuo move up in lvl would be ok. It doesn't have to be equal to melee; but I would like to see it possible to make a ranged build that could be the equal of some mellees.

[salmag]

Star Wars: even Solo states "...a good blaster beats a light saber any day..." Also, look at the prequels; the Jedi Knights are most effective when they are rebounding the ranged attacks back at their opponents. Darth Vader even uses a ranged touch attack when he uses the force to strangle his commands. If the stormtroopers were worth a **** and could shoot straight...

Indiana Jones: Besides the above mentioned, gunfighter shooting the Scimitar wielder, he uses a gun and a whip more often than not. And in the sequels, when he doesn't have his gun, he turns tail and runs. I also seem to remember Indy getting the hell beat out of him whenever he did fight hand-to-hand. That's what I remember anyway; I'll have to rewatch those movies.

Princess Bride: The only range attack in that movie was when Rugen (the six fingered man) threw the knife at Inigo. He hit his target but Inigo had too many hit points to go down. Maybe if his dagger was a returning wepon he could have done more.

Any more examples?

[Valdieron]

My first char when this game came out was Braxton in my sig. He is a ranged fighter and I complained then how terrible it was (it was worse incase you didnt know, slower ROF, not affected by haste, none of the shoot through thing feats etc..).. My response was: In beta ranged worked similar to melle (and similar to what most people think it should) and no one was playing a melle char. Ranged was to powerful.

I believe them allowing the bow to hit multiple targets etc.. Was a step in the right direction to correcting this but not getting the same issue that was in beta. Although I do agree it needs more, I do ok damage with my archer (not great, but not terrible due to his high + to hit). The problem seems to be in CC, we should get the equivalent of trip, stunning blow etc. Maybe like a staple shot or something, bludgeon arrows with an X percent stun chance etc..

Make archery cool and versatile rather then anymore DPS oriented. Just my 2cents..

Yeh I agree. Maybe increasing rate of fire proportionate to ranger level would appease the dedicated rangers and men they are more effective at ranging than a fighter with a splashed level or 2 of ranged. I also think they need to have stunning arrows - flat-head arrows that stun on a crit. This gives the archer a chance to do a bit of CC rather than hoping para and precision work, which I have found is very effective with many-shot or when fighting in doorways.