Shade's Max DPS build?

[Borror0]

And no, this title the original poster made for this thread is just fine and quite accurate.

Well, if we really want to debate that: WF and TWF will do more damage than Dwarf and THF.

[maddmatt70]

I agree. Never said it was a good idea just noting it's possible for those who may be interested.

And no, this title the original poster made for this thread is just fine and quite accurate.

Fighters out DPS'ing barbarians? haha that will be the day, I welcome the challenge in mod9 tho.

twf rangers out dps barbarians especially thf barbarians any day of the week sorry Axer, but that is the story right now. You are right fighters are the worst dps class at the moment, but they will get a big bump next mod. Gfunk did a real good statistical analysis of the different build types in a thread in general combat. He compares twf melee because well twf do more damage then thf. If you look at our speed shroud record runs, which are a good test of dps, we use primarily rangers and this is no accident. Yes, you dislike rangers and prefer thf over twf, but that is the facts right now. The monk splash is also incredible potent from a defensive perspective. My guess is once you get more acquainted with the monk splash you will seek to make a character with one.

By the way I made a thief acrobat q-staff thf rogue this mod. He could do comparable dps to your barbarian this mod depending on gear, sneak damage what have you. Next mod the barbarian will surpass him with frenzied berserker at least until acrobat 3 comes out which should be mod 10 or 11.

I have been logging on less these days. Just a little burned out, but will be back hardcore next mod..

[Shade]

... Gfunk did a real good statistical analysis of the different build types in a thread in general combat. .

Gfunk, and every math addict around cannot accurately calculate the thousands of variables that come into real ingame DPS. Not a knock at him, just do not believe anyone can do such a complex system justice with spreadsheet and calcuator sorry.

There are many factors most math addicts simply do not understand about the game.

Some important facts that GREATLY effect this:
- There are 3 different styles of attacking with two handed weapons.

-Attacking while standing still with a two handed fighter is EXTREMELY ineffective. Over 30% slower then attacking while moving, and over 50% slower then the maximum possible attack speed. All spreadsheets and calcuated i've seen ALWAYS use this incorrect attack speed in their calculations.

-Attacking while moving is over 30% faster and grants glancing blows on 50% of your swings - 100% of your swings if you have the spring attack feat and greater two handed feats (not possible on a pure barb but something important to note for THF in general) - ALL current calculators do not correct incorporate glancing blows in any way.

-It is possible to attack while moving, yet not move. This is diffficult to explain and has to be shown to understand - basicly it involves attacking while moving, and stoping inbetween at a fixed interval.. It is a difficult skill that basicly no other player but me uses (i use it 100% of the time in important fights).. I did manage to teach it to one of my friends, after allot of practice he could do it as I could. It is difficult to explain exactly how it works, but it is very simple once you know, This style of attacking is over 50% faster then standard auto attacks. It also provides 50% glancing blows and the -4 penalty to hit only applies on 50% of your swings. I'll post a video of it soon.

-This style of attacking provides 145 swings per minuit hasted. Equivalent TWF swings provides ~210 swings per minuit (not sure on that going off memory). A fary cry from the "TWF is twice as fast as two handed" nonsense.

-It is possible to slightly increase your attack speed with TWF using the above style, but it is extremely difficult to perform due to the timing of the attacks, and only around 5% more effective. I generally do not use on my TWF due to this.

Other issues not considered:

Due to module 8 changes, attacking while moving provides and extreme range of attack with two handed weapons. The enemy monsters do not gain the same advantage, nor does two weapon fighting.. As such THF can simply backpedal and attack a monster without it being close enough to hit you back. The same is generally not possible on a TWF. Does not directly effect DPS, but certain does indirectly as it allows you to fight non-stop without ever needing to delay an attack for a heal.

DPS is a relatively term that can also be interpreted as overall damage dealt in a quest. It's possible for a Barbarian to use the sprint boost enhancement to run ahead of any ranger and kill every monster in the quest before he can even reach them.. In these cases rangers DPS is zero. I've shown this to rangers on several occasions. They seems to think there dual w/p rapiers would win vs my greater banes in killcounts, but very simply due to my supeior speed alone that is rarely the case. The module 8 changes only make this more so as you never need to stop to kill a monster - they will simply follow you as run backwards and kill them.

Regardless if you or the math geeks understand the above concepts, the Frenzied Berserker will be an amazing class. I'll make sure of it

[Shade]

The really sad thing about this is the Devs could very easily provide us with a 100% accurate way to gauge DPS on the fly with very little coding.

All they need to do is provide us with a way to output the combat log to a text file on the fly.

The rest can be done by the playerbase's talented coders as it has been done for most other MMOs. All one would need to do is developer a combat log parser to parse the damage logs as they come in, and calcuate it into a damage per second number - that info could then be displayed instantly to the player either as a windowed application next to DDO, or via an overlay.

Perhaps we should request such a function.

[Borror0]

Shade, TWF is noticeably better than THF.

[Hadrian]

Regardless if you or the math geeks understand the above concepts...

I think you might give yourself a little too much credit, and possibly deny lots of good players credit they deserve.

You can assume that you're the only one that knows how to play a barbarian if it makes you feel better, but not if you're trying to make some kind of rational point.

[spifflove]

I hate to admit it but I think Shade has swayed my thought pattern on this one a bit. I've always liked underdog builds anyway

[Shade]

I think you might give yourself a little too much credit, and possibly deny lots of good players credit they deserve.

You can assume that you're the only one that knows how to play a barbarian if it makes you feel better, but not if you're trying to make some kind of rational point.

I'm not discrediting Gfunk at all if you read carefully. Just explaning some factors no one can calculate correctly.

He himself admits in his thread that proper swing rates or glancing blow damages are not known or easily calcuted and as such doesn't list any damage per second calculations.

His main "DPS" thread refers to damage per swing. Which can be helpful, but doesn't accurately explain damage per second at all as he notes.

[Shade]

I hate to admit it but I think Shade has swayed my thought pattern on this one a bit. I've always liked underdog builds anyway

underdog build haha. This build is the alpha and omega dog build. Always has been.

But yea I'm glad. I'll bring lots of forum browsing barbs back into the proper way of thinking for mod9. THF is awesome and will always be awesome.

[boldarblood]

I have both a 2wf and 2hf barbarian. Currently 2wf is better, more dps, more advantage due to having access to banishing, puncturing, etc. As of mod 8 twf>>>thf.

I am hoping that with changes to mod9 it brings the 2hf closer to 2wf. My 2HF dwarf barb is sitting at a 17 dex awaiting mod9 and the verdict.

[Shade]

Having TWF feats does not grant access to special weapon effects like puncture or banishing. Neither does having the THF prevent it.

So yea you have to use a 1 handed weapon if you want to use them, big deal - there most often crappy +1 weapons anyways so dps is out either way, their purepose is not dps.

But re: THF getting better. I have no doubt in my mind that THF will be superior DPS in mod9. Like I said ill post a video to prove it soon as both my barbs are lvl20 as well.

The only issue with THF in my mind is the 3rd/4th/5th attack being garbage. However a skilled player can avoid ever using them however, I certainly do.

[Hadrian]

I'm not discrediting Gfunk at all if you read carefully. Just explaning some factors no one can calculate correctly.

No, you just said there are things only you can use and that no one else understands. Therefore THF isn't as bad as the rest of us poor ignorant fools think.

Got it.

THF is just fine for standard DPS but there is more to it than that. TWF has a clear advantage in any situation where on-hit effects come into play. The improved swing rate of TWF gives this advantage. There are methods that you can use to decrease this gap, but none that close it.

[Aaxeyu]

Shade, your "max dps build" doesn't even come close to the dps of my proposed "max dps build", and that build isn't even max dps. So go figure if your build still can be max dps.

[jakeelala]

you guys are wrong. In that screenshot he posted im Amputation. I've run with Axer a lot. It's extremely hard to keep up with him in kills, and he usually has aggro.

He's right that you don't calc glancing blows which is huge, but it's also very important to note that swinging when moving is a good deal faster for THF. Plus the syngery of having 54 str with the 1.5 damage bonus from str for THF is also HUGE.

You have to have the best gear around to keep up with Axer, and even with a pimped TWF on a favored enemy it's **** near impossible.

[Nick_RC]

You have to have the best gear around to keep up with Axer, and even with a pimped TWF on a favored enemy it's **** near impossible.

Groan would have him

(Stirs pot hehehe)

N

[Hadrian]

Plus the syngery of having 54 str with the 1.5 damage bonus from str for THF is also HUGE.

54 strength is including the scourge choker, though. Only a few raid bosses in the game can hit you at the rate you need to keep from getting the -50% penalty, and none of them are in the Shroud.

You can include the scourge choker in any calculation you want as long as you're willing to accept the -50% melee speed penalty.

[Aaxeyu]

you guys are wrong. In that screenshot he posted im Amputation. I've run with Axer a lot. It's extremely hard to keep up with him in kills, and he usually has aggro.

He's right that you don't calc glancing blows which is huge, but it's also very important to note that swinging when moving is a good deal faster for THF. Plus the syngery of having 54 str with the 1.5 damage bonus from str for THF is also HUGE.

You have to have the best gear around to keep up with Axer, and even with a pimped TWF on a favored enemy it's **** near impossible.

No, you are wrong.

I include clancing blows in my calcs.
TWF also gets 1.5 damage bonus from str, you now?
And they get x2 damage from all other damage sources(except kensai).

[Shade]

54 strength is including the scourge choker, though. Only a few raid bosses in the game can hit you at the rate you need to keep from getting the -50% penalty, and none of them are in the Shroud.

You can include the scourge choker in any calculation you want as long as you're willing to accept the -50% melee speed penalty.

Quite true, it's not worth using most of the time. But a 46-48 strength nearly all the time certainly helps.

But the post you were replying to was not about calculations. It was about the real game.

Also find it funny that someone on my ignore list posted a reply about the thread title, one matching probably 4-5 other replies in this thread.. Funny thing is I couldn't change the thread title if I wanted too (not the OP).... but would I if I could? heh.

re: nick, aparently my guild leader grouped with you when you came to Khyber and spoke highly of your skill, and I trust his opinion. So props to you. Move all your toons to Khyber to see some true Barbarian action in mod9 =)

[Hanam]

Quite true, it's not worth using most of the time. But a 46-48 strength nearly all the time certainly helps.

But the post you were replying to was not about calculations. It was about the real game.

Also find it funny that someone on my ignore list posted a reply about the thread title, one matching probably 4-5 other replies in this thread.. Funny thing is I couldn't change the thread title if I wanted too (not the OP).... but would I if I could? heh.

re: nick, aparently my guild leader grouped with you when you came to Khyber and spoke highly of your skill, and I trust his opinion. So props to you. Move all your toons to Khyber to see some true Barbarian action in mod9 =)

Good, Make sure not to res him when he dies in cometfalls.

[Aspenor]

Good, Make sure not to res him when he dies in cometfalls.

Also make sure to cast barkskin on his characters at every possible opportunity. He loves how his characters look with it.

PS - Nick belongs to Argo (usually lol). Instead, why don't you come to Argo, Shade, so you can experience the pure shenanigans that is Argonnessen.