The Real Damage the new raid loot system can do to Turbine

[Capstern]

Ok I understand making raid loot a little harder to come by but the results that are coming in from Risia are kind of scary and made me think of a few more things.

I still think my raid loot idea is best of both worlds...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116320

My guild and I were discussing this last night and there is a more dangerous affect to Turbine's subscriber base than less raid loot and people being ****ed.

Looking at what out guild does. I would guess we will have exhausted the new content within 2 weeks. And be totally bored of it in like 4-6

I am being generous with some of that depending on how good it is for fun, killing your friends and loot.

We fall back between the times of mods to doing small raids. We are a guild of about 5-8 people and we just like to have fun and we are good friends. Pugging it out isnt fun for the pugs IMO we are all on ventrilo and dont talk to the pugs really unless we are telling them where to stand with their hands in their pockets.

We find new and harder ways to do the raids if we can and like to run them small to make they actually challeneging.

Sure we could get more people and it would be easier but whats the point we like to be challeneged. So hence the small runs. Its about keeping us interested in the game and not wandering off to try WOW (yes some of us havent) or like me thinking about installing my odl copy of Baldurs gate and BG2 just to do something fun.

We get the most fun out of small raids and trying to screw up a party memeber doing something - make him fall in the lava etc.

Then we get through all the trials and tribulations and sabotage we would like to know we are going to get something at the end. Carrot and the stick baby. The system NOW isnt great the system propsed has some merit but the system I suggested would be better than either. I would be happy to keep running small raids for tokens if I needed to knowing that eventually my 60+ titan run would result in the stupid belt.

hence you create a system that generates pseudo-content for us hard core games. Sure we are doing the same thing over and over but we do it contentedly working towards a goal. its not real content but it keeps us bringing you our money and we dont ***** much cause we are working towards something.

This isnt unprecedented either:
Planar Gird....doing Xorian over and over and over - feels like content :P
Blodstone and other desert stuff we know that was put in to allow us ot do it over an over - feels like content
Scale Armor - geez I have 3 toons in it and grinding away for 2 more sets - its like content

its work but there is a reward
teh system you are proposing really doesnt offer that its more like here please do this more but you will get less.

We are sorta barely hanging on between content now but there is just enough work to keep me around and I am generally seen as the Turbine apologist in my guild.

Think about it devs...if raiding loot could also be like scales in a combo system you just extended the content and life in a manner of speaking and you say thats your intent.


Short of quadrupling the content soon - this is your next best hope to keeping us hard core guys around

[Fishy]

How many threads are you going to start about this?

I don't like your token-based proposal, and hope that it is never implemented.

If you really wanted a challenge doing raids, you'd do them naked. There was a guild in Diablo that used to do that.

[Capstern]

How many threads are you going to start about this?

I don't like your token-based proposal, and hope that it is never implemented.

If you really wanted a challenge doing raids, you'd do them naked. There was a guild in Diablo that used to do that.

Hmmmm I think we have tried doing some parts with fists only.
And sorry you dont like the token idea and thats your right but its better than what they are suggesting or what we have now in the sake of making things work and keeping people vested.

And this thread isnt about pushing the alternative persae its more about what this new system will do to peoples interest when the new content is gone - since the current raid system barley keeps some people playing - the new one might kill all interest for those people altogether

but I guess I didnt make that obvious enough

[LeLoric]

You can still do the raids short manned. Its not like it wont let you go in without 12.

If you enjoy the challenge of short manning raids then you will still do it. If you short man raids to get more loot you probably wont, Its pretty clear.

[Gimpster]

You can still do the raids short manned. Its not like it wont let you go in without 12.

9 players in a DDO raid is not "short manned".

Short-manned implies you have so few helpers that there is difficulty covering all needed tasks. No DDO raid has more than 6 tasks, and many have less.

[Ithrani]

9 players in a DDO raid is not "short manned".

Short-manned implies you have so few helpers that there is difficulty covering all needed tasks. No DDO raid has more than 6 tasks, and many have less.

He didn't use a number, where do you get 9 from Gimp. Left field?

[Gimpster]

He didn't use a number, where do you get 9 from Gimp. Left field?

He did use a number. He used the number 12, and implied that anything less would be "short manned".

I generously used the number 9 as an example, although the number 11 would have been sufficient to refute as a matter of accuracy.

[underlordone]

some pride them selfs on doing low man or even soloing raids quest what ever by taken a end reward that was norm there down to no raid loot i mean point doing quest besides goofen off is no pointless. You gear yourself to do these task now being punish for doing them yea i feel so happy. If some one has the ablity to solo a riad props i can do 3 of them np so the point of going into a raid getting the gear i need then helping my friends get theres now is pointless due to i cant hand over raid loot that supose to be in chest.

I have to use a coin word here (BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ON YOU)

[TechNoFear]

If they dont change the raid loot system, imagine the whisperdoom like 'exploits' that will come with a level cap raise.

Your 16th lvl capped carries my new character to the warded chest and lets me grab the two raid items. Then I carry your new character with my capped. Repeat as required...

[Gimpster]

If they dont change the raid loot system, imagine the whisperdoom like 'exploits' that will come with a level cap raise.

Your 16th lvl capped carries my new character to the warded chest and lets me grab the two raid items. Then I carry your new character with my capped. Repeat as required...

That's not an "exploit". That'd be a self-nerf.

The timer for any character to repeat a raid is 3 days. By the time you've done a few runs and waited out that timer, your "new character" could easily be capped already, if he wasn't wasting XP getting powerlevelled penalty by being escorted through raids.

Besides, its not as if there isn't already a situation where a level 11 ranger will carry a helpless sorc14 through a raid and let him keep the loot.

[hannika]

i think capstern's system is a great one for all the reasons he's mentioned, but aside from my opinions it's obvious that the devs could make a lot of ppl happy by listening to and responding to a lot of what people are upset about. that poll that's not discussing just listing for or against has been pretty much neck and neck through it's entire existance. obviously a LARGE percentage of the games population (at least that the forum can represent) obviously are opposed to this. this is the kind of thing the devs should have put up for feedback before deciding to do it. when right now i belive it's 49.something percent is avidly against something, that's a large part of the community to hack off when population is down.

[Tavok]

I like your system, if you don't get something, you get a token. BUT these tokens have to be static, there has to be a number (it can NOT vary within the party) of tokens giving to the whole raid group. This is pretty much exactly like invaders, where the number of tokens you get depends on the quest, not on a per player basis. For example:

Raid X (with your system):

Neither Bob nor Joe loot any raid loot, ok, thats fine, they get tokens.
They did the quest on elite so they get a chance of 3-6 tokens. Bob gets 3, Joe gets 6. 3 days later. Same thing. 3 Days later, same thing. Get where I'm going here? Its really unfair to one player if they see their raiding friend get 2x the number of tokens they get for the same amount of work. Thats why I would propose something like the invaders system, (the end boss doesn't change) where the quest itself generates the number of tokens that to be handed out to everyone equally. This way both Joe and Bob would get 5 (or 4.5 I guess would be the middle ground :P).

[Shade]

Thing is, even if the large majority of players agreed with your idea cap (they dont, poll shows most like the new system) it still wouldn't happen. So your million threads about it are kinda useless.

Turbine listens to the fans feedback, and then they make there decision. They have always done it this way since early days of AC. There philosophy has always been to be unlike EQs developers idea of "yours in our world now" - we make the rules and craft the game solely as we please .. So instead they let the players help craft the world, to an extent..

They use 2 simple rules:
A) Gather fan feedback - Based that, decide what would be best for the game. Never go back on a decision.
B) Never nerf.

Easy to tell they are following those rules.

A) The raid loot mechanic was gone into great deal and many people suggested the system they decided upon, mostly when mod 1 came out with the first warded chest.
As such they will not go back on it, and never change it, least not for several years id say. One tweak to something like this is more then enough.
B) Sword of shadows.. Everyone knows it needs to be nerfed but it will never be. Often instead of nerfing they usualy just power up other things to try and attain balance.. It works in a way, but leads to over powered players and over powered monsters to compensate, eventually to there point where some game mechanics just break (armor class)

[LeLoric]

He did use a number. He used the number 12, and implied that anything less would be "short manned".

I generously used the number 9 as an example, although the number 11 would have been sufficient to refute as a matter of accuracy.

And you entirely missed the point of my post. Yes I am aware of what it takes and when a raid becomes more challenging I am just saying if you are only in it for the loot take 12 if you want the challenge of doing a raid with less people then by all means do it. There's two seperate mindsets one is the challenge of doing something one is to get more loot. People that are upset arent upset because the challenge went away its still there they are upset because the loot went away.

[Gimpster]

There's two seperate mindsets one is the challenge of doing something one is to get more loot. People that are upset arent upset because the challenge went away its still there they are upset because the loot went away.

Not exactly.

If the loot went away meaning that you got 1 raid item per run instead of 2, casual raiders would still be upset, but less so... because although they're getting less loot, the hardcore organized guilds are also getting less. They're not missing out on something just because they're too casual to be able to assemble 12 players together 2-3 times a week.

But the new system not only reduces the total amount of loot, it offers you the chance to get it back, but only if you bring in other player characters as loot-bots.

[Kethir]

This idea that if you like raiding in small groups for the challenge, the new system is ok is really ASININE argument. No one said so in this thread, but I've read it elsewere, but that argument is just absolutely fallacious. It is misleading and basically an intentional lie.

The argument is more honestly stated in the following example:

If you really like your job, then you won't mind that we decided to cut your pay in half. If you quit, that just means you were only here for the money, and if you want to work just for money, we don't want people like you.

Great argument huh?

People raid for the challenge and they like the bonus loot. All turbine did is massively reduced the loot drop. So regardless what you think, the result of the nerf is a simple reduction in the "benefit" of running a raid, except in 12 man groups.

If they dont change the raid loot system, imagine the whisperdoom like 'exploits' that will come with a level cap raise.

Your 16th lvl capped carries my new character to the warded chest and lets me grab the two raid items. Then I carry your new character with my capped. Repeat as required...

This explains the whole new system to me. I had not thought of this and it makes perfect sense why they needed to do something. However, it doesn't explain specifically why they chose the implementation the way they did.

Personally, I suspect the reason they did this is because they wanted to make raids not about the loot, but about the group. If you want to run raids for loot, please leave - that type of purpose.

I suspect Turbine just wants raid based powergamers to quit. Or turn to loot runs, instead of raid runs (if there is such a thing). Perhaps powergamers are causing some other problems? Perhaps turbine is rethinking their whole raid concept (not a bad idea to me).

Maybe they're going to just get rid of raids. Personally, I think that would be awesome. Instead of a raid, have a chain of quests that could lead to some bonus item for everyone (like the necro trinket, just useful)

[Knightrose]

Ya'll just need to settle. Take Mod5 for a ride. It's not like this is the end of the world. Raids are fast and easy. They're quick lotteries with a chance for more powerful loot.

Chillax and play.

[Vletts]

Ok, i keep reading posts about how this new raid-loot is such a horrible thing. I don't see how. All they are doing is posing a challenge where one wasn't before.

Prime example: i ran PoP for the first time during the last loot weekend on elite.. i was ashamed at teh final boss fight. Shortly after last update i ran it again, where they changed it so that Big C could teleport around. I was astonished at how many 'elite loot' runners couldn't finish without a wipe/partial wipe. Now i am not saying it still happens, people adapt and learn to play. I have 2 main points to all you ninny's: 1) If you want loot handed to you (because if you can solo a raid, that is what is happening) then go play WoW, because DnD was never meant to be a 'please hand me my loot, i learned how to bypass the difficulty of your task' type game. 2) It states that there is a 1 in 6 chance that 'each member' can get an item.. meaning there is more 'chance' to loot.

Yes, i used the word 'chance' because that is what DnD is all about. If anyone has ever created or run an adventure it's all in the dice. You would 'chance' at something dependent on what the dice said.

Too many people are harsh to criticize something not even implemented yet, but i have figured it out... You are all the 'glass is half empty' type people, which is unfortunate.

It is also a well known fact that a majority of people who play don't post on the forums. So making a comment about how the majority (really meaning the majority of those who posted) don't like something is garbage.

I have a lot more i could waste my time commenting about, but i feel that would be counterproductive. So i would just like to close with this: 'look for the silver lining in things', because if all you focus on is the negative in something then don't expect anything more.

Vletts Ennobu

[TechNoFear]

The timer for any character to repeat a raid is 3 days. By the time you've done a few runs and waited out that timer, your "new character" could easily be capped already, if he wasn't wasting XP getting powerlevelled penalty by being escorted through raids.

If, after a level cap raise, you can get capped in less than three days then there is obviously NOT a shortage of XP.

If there is no shortage of XP, why not waste some XP ensuring you have multiple raid loot items?

[Naso24]

I have 2 main points to all you ninny's: 1) If you want loot handed to you (because if you can solo a raid, that is what is happening) then go play WoW, because DnD was never meant to be a 'please hand me my loot, i learned how to bypass the difficulty of your task' type game. 2) It states that there is a 1 in 6 chance that 'each member' can get an item.. meaning there is more 'chance' to loot.

Vletts -

1) the same people that run solo, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 man raids will now be joining those that are new and need 8-12 players. Who will be handed the loot now?

2) 1 in 6 times 12 people averages 2 items per full party raid. That is equivalent to the current system. 11 people = less. 10 people = less. 6 people = half (1 item on average). Sure, there will be runs where 3 or 4 items drop. But there will also be runs where 1 or zero drop. IT WILL AVERAGE OUT TO LESS RAID SPECIFIC LOOT.