Maximum Level Loot = Junk, SCRAP raid loot idea

[Hendrik]

Here's the thing though.

Anyone who regularly ran in a 12-man raid (i.e. more casual players) can tell you that you don't really raid for raid loot. You raid for "a chance at raid loot." If you didn't get that (and only 2 out of 12 people could get that), then you got what most people would call "junk" (which is to say, loot that would come out of any other chest in a quest of that level). I'd wager a guess that this is actually what the devs intended. They built the old system with the expectation that you'd be running in 12-man groups. Then, of course, everyone got good at them and realized that they got more loot per person if they ran in smaller groups. So they did. And that meant raid loot was making it's way into the system far faster than the devs expected and/or intended.

The new system puts it back to the way it was originally intended, for everyone, regardless of group size. You're raiding for a chance at raid loot. This is especially hard to accept for people who figured out how to work the old system and were getting as much as 1 piece of raid loot per person.

Setting aside, of course, the whole "you could just play the game to actually, you know, do quests and have fun" argument, since those same people who are complaining the most about this have, at this point, done all the raids so many times that they don't really have fun doing them any more. Which is a shame, because it means that it ends up just being about the reward and nothing else. And then when the system changes for how that reward is rewarded you become especially unhappy.

Good post MT, QFT.

[blakbyrd]

Here is my suggestion to help in this matter as I too think it could use some fixing. Star a new thread on this issue with this chest, but posts should be limited as follows:

1. Each post must contain a screeshot of the items present in the chest.
2. Each post must state the difficulty level the quest was done on.
3. If possible expand your chat window to show the items everyone else pulled as well.

Let people start posting the screenies of what is coming out of it to get a real feel for what is going on. It will also be hard evidence of how the chest is working to allow for Turbine to correct it.

Just a thought. Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to throw this off track as I too think the tables are not quite up to par, and getting multiple people to participate in providing proof would be far more helpful than simple complaints or people agreeing. Get a thread going showing the proof, showing the problem.

[DemonMage]

MT you make a good point. In most games that's how it is too, and they end up like this as well. At first you do the raids with the maximum amount of people (usually) and then you start doing them with less and less because it's more rewarding for everyone and possibly more challenging. But at least in either of those situations someone is getting an "awesome" raid item every run.

True, with the new system and a full group, you should on average get two items per raid. But it's going to be one disappointing raid when everyone walks away with complete junk.

[Strumpoo]

I've seen groups ransack PoP in a matter of hours and pull multiple banishers/disrupter/vorpals while the raid group runs and get multiple tenderizers...seems pretty fair to me

Considering the fact that the tenderizer is 10x's better than a vorpal I would say it is fair.

[Aspenor]

BTW---

That titan instance was set on ELITE.

[DemonMage]

They did say they liked the idea of increasing the raid-loot drop rates on hard/elite at least, but meh.

[Aesop]

ya know thinking about it I think Warded Chests should be a chest where the loot span is broken down to three possibilities

Raid Loot (say the Turbine 1:6 chance)
Tomes (say another 1:6 chance)
+1 Loot (4:6 chance quest level +1 chest so effectively quest level -2 loot or something like that)

additionally I think the odds should be modified on higher difficulties

Hard
Raid Loot (1:5)
Tome (1:5)
+2 Loot (3:5 as above but increase it to chest loot =quest level -1)

Elite
Raid Loot (1:4)
Tome (1:4)
+3 Loot (2:4 as above but chest loot = quest level)


not sure about the +Loot because on elite it would be loot effectively 4 levels or so higher than on Normal ...so I guess it would promote Elite runs... but still it might make things a little nicer for people.


Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

MT you make a good point. In most games that's how it is too, and they end up like this as well. At first you do the raids with the maximum amount of people (usually) and then you start doing them with less and less because it's more rewarding for everyone and possibly more challenging.

I'm not too familiar with raids in other games, but the impression I've gotten in the past is that the numbers you're talking about are more like 100-ish (or more) to start, and then they move down to maybe 20 or 30 people.

Which is all to say, that even in those cases you're still really only looking at a (pretty small) chance to walk away with an item.

But, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Riddikulus]

Setting aside, of course, the whole "you could just play the game to actually, you know, do quests and have fun" argument, since those same people who are complaining the most about this have, at this point, done all the raids so many times that they don't really have fun doing them any more. Which is a shame, because it means that it ends up just being about the reward and nothing else. And then when the system changes for how that reward is rewarded you become especially unhappy.

When there are only 4 raids in the whole game what do you expect?

People run them repeatedly because that's all the raid content there is available. IMO they are still fun though after being run repeatedly, but at this point, the biggest enjoyment comes from:

a) Getting better loot
b) Figuring out ways to run the raid cheaper, easier, faster, with fewer people.

Both of these factors are being heavily impacted with the new loot system.

[MysticTheurge]

When there are only 4 raids in the whole game what do you expect?

Just to clarify, I'm not blaming the people who feel that way in any fashion. It is, as you point out, an unfortunate side effect of the relatively small amount of content, especially raid content, in DDO.

[Riddikulus]

BTW---

That titan instance was set on ELITE.

OK, that's equal to PoP normal. I've seen that kind of stuff come out of PoP normal chests, so it's not any big surprise.

Again I think they could make this whole thing more palatable by bumping up the chest level 1 or 2 for the normal item drops in warded chests.

[Rekker]

Well PoP _is_ two levels higher than Titan.

EDITTED: My fault, was comparing the Titan to Reaver.

[Aesop]

OK, that's equal to PoP normal. I've seen that kind of stuff come out of PoP normal chests, so it's not any big surprise.

Again I think they could make this whole thing more palatable by bumping up the chest level 1 or 2 for the normal item drops in warded chests.

See post 27 ... whatcha think Ridd? Somnething like that or some modyfied version there of


Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

Again I think they could make this whole thing more palatable by bumping up the chest level 1 or 2 for the normal item drops in warded chests.

I think this is a good idea.

[DemonMage]

I'm not too familiar with raids in other games, but the impression I've gotten in the past is that the numbers you're talking about are more like 100-ish (or more) to start, and then they move down to maybe 20 or 30 people.

Which is all to say, that even in those cases you're still really only looking at a (pretty small) chance to walk away with an item.

But, correct me if I'm wrong.

Old school EQ was unlimited, technically, but limited via the amount people could handle on their computers. Generally somewhere between 50-100 people this was a very long time ago. And in those raids you'd get upwards of 20 items per night. Eventually they put a 72 person cap, then 40(?) and are now down to 20ish person raids. Still pulling in similar loot amounts per raid zone I believe. [Edit] Of course guilds will also go and backfarm places for old members, or to twink out alts. Especially when expansions get put out, old content is a joke compared to the new stuff. Much like now. More levels adds a vast amount of power. As such, old raids can't hope to keep up with characters, and people don't want to go through the effort and time to put together a full raid when it's completely unneeded. And even without them, skilled people or groups of people could farm raid content with far less than the intended amount. I wasn't even that well geared, but at one point a friend and I used to go duo some of the lower end raid bosses (of the current expansion) that many people still considered a multi-group encounter.

Everquest 2 started out with 24 person raid cap (and continues today... at most) with raid items being anywhere from 3ish for an overworld boss to 10+ for an instance run.

WoW started out with 40, if you could clear all of Molten Core in a night (far less common at the start, increasingly more common as time went on... even so it's one clear max per raid timer) you'd down 10 bosses netting 2-3 loots per boss for 20-30 loots per raid. The trash mobs also randomly dropped raid quality items. WoW now maxs out at 20 person raids, with roughly the same amount of loot dropping per instance.

Of course, one of the biggest factors in seeing a piece of loot in those, much like now, is having the item you want actually drop. Which can be a huge pain in and of itself.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

ya know thinking about it I think Warded Chests should be a chest where the loot span is broken down to three possibilities

Raid Loot (say the Turbine 1:6 chance)
Tomes (say another 1:6 chance)
+1 Loot (4:6 chance quest level +1 chest so effectively quest level -2 loot or something like that)

additionally I think the odds should be modified on higher difficulties

Hard
Raid Loot (1:5)
Tome (1:5)
+2 Loot (3:5 as above but increase it to chest loot =quest level -1)

Elite
Raid Loot (1:4)
Tome (1:4)
+3 Loot (2:4 as above but chest loot = quest level)


not sure about the +Loot because on elite it would be loot effectively 4 levels or so higher than on Normal ...so I guess it would promote Elite runs... but still it might make things a little nicer for people.


Aesop

That's an interesting aproach. It combines the Turbine approach with the scaling they have already agreed was a good idea and a bit of a loot boost so that you don't feel you just pull junk if you don't get a raid item.

I like it

[Vinos]

I've seen groups ransack PoP in a matter of hours and pull multiple banishers/disrupter/vorpals while the raid group runs and get multiple tenderizers...seems pretty fair to me

Well you have to consider that you can do the "spray and pray" mentality with PoP. You're more likely to get something becuase you're looting it more. The Warded chest is only 1 chest that you can open once every 3 days.

[GramercyRiff]

Well you have to consider that you can do the "spray and pray" mentality with PoP. You're more likely to get something becuase you're looting it more. The Warded chest is only 1 chest that you can open once every 3 days.

And this is exactly why the worthless raid loot needs to be removed. This is why the maximum loot tables need to be adjusted to give out better loot for the warded chest.

[Uska]

Thats why we need the Token option.

And the chest should be at the least similar to ones in PoP, not the level 8 **** you usually get from the chests next to the warded one.

NO NO I hate token systems more then the old system even, power gaming junk is what token systems are oooh just thinking about them almost could get me an infraction

[Uska]

First off we dont know if they have the loot tables set right yet also it was short manned(might be hard to get a full group right now on test) also only one run need more runs with more people before we need the naysayers saying DOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM