Reducing negativity in DDO from raid loot

[Plynx]

I really hate seeing this debate framed in terms of hardcore vs. casual. As a longtime MMO player, I really feel that these categories don't "stick"--the generalizations people make don't apply, and what people think hardcores or casuals want isn't really what they want.

I want to talk about something else: human nature and fun. I really don't feel like people will have fun with the new raid mechanic, simply because it is human nature for effort to breed a sense of entitlement. When that feeling of entitlement is thwarted, it results in a lot of negative feelings. There's lots of ways it could start, from a small core group inviting puggers and then browbeating them into transferring loot, to watching a perceived noob who was a liability to the raid getting your cherished and wanted item, to arguments over which classes and/or players are entitled to rolls, and many other ways besides. It's negativity waiting to happen.

When faced with this kind of situation, players create their own systems. In other games players frequently design and use their own DKP (a point based loot distribution system, for those who don't know) systems. Guilds then become havens for people who agree to a common loot distribution method and raid schedule... not necessarily friends who enjoy playing with each other--for various reasons it can be too hard to have both. The point is, of course, to restore the idea that effort will be rewarded and to curb some of the negativity mentioned above. As DDO is currently, the problems are exactly the same, however, players have another recourse: run with fewer players to remove the scarcity and increase the effort to reward ratio. From what I understand, most guilds don't even need loot distribution systems because of this option.

Any kind of scarcity that results in players having to create mini-governments to try to cut down on bad feelings is, I think, bad for fun in general. If you had a one in whatever chance of getting a token you could trade in for a raid item of your choice, all of those bad feelings could be avoided and the devs could still set whatever level of scarcity they want to have for raid loot. As many others have pointed out, it seems like an excellent solution unless there are some other obscure design intents we don't know about.

Note that I do not care about math, the average chance of getting raid loot per run, exploits, or how easy or hard raids are or should be. In my opinion, all of the discussion on those topics are just variations on people trying to match up effort with entitlement. But I believe that players shouldn't have to, ultimately. In fact, if the new system were to work exactly the same as proposed, but without allowing players to reassign loot, it would generate fewer negative feelings between players overall--despite giving out less useful raid loot to players! The system as designed only gives you the power to give "your" loot away--which is a very negative presentation! Even simple things, like the fact that DDO doesn't have an "inspect" feature, are incredible at reducing negative player feelings. But these things are often overlooked in discussions like these.

No system that has rare and valuable items ostensibly offered in exchange for extended effort should leave aside the question of human nature in the face of scarcity. In fact, I believe it is the first and MOST important question. How can we get the most people to have fun and reduce any potential hard feelings--from the outset? The math and whatever else can come after.



[I want to add a "don't pigeonhole me" disclaimer here at the end, since currently many posters seem eager to categorize others as either casual or hardcore and dismiss them. I am a semi-casual semi-hardcore gamer--I play almost every day for a few hours, but with a few core friends. We are excellent players but aim for fun over uber. I have only ever raided with 12 people, and I have no raid loot to my name. I am a relatively new DDO player. I have one level 14 with 1450 favor and one level 5 drow. My experience with loot mechanics comes from the lessons learned the hard way in other MMOs--my main concern is not about obtaining raid loot, but on the overall health and fun of the game of DDO for all players.]

[muffinlad]

Very good post Plynx.

I have to say, the Role Players deployed their system for many of the reasons you indicated, and further, if we had the "new" system in place, we would not have had to.

I can tell not everyone is happy with it, and that does concern me from a happiness standpoint, but in the end not everyone will be happy no matter what happens.

Regs,

muffinjester

[Neferi]

GREAT post, Plynx.

I'd like to add that I think a lot of people confuse the need for reward with greed.

All players wants to feel that their time matters, and that they will see a tangible reward for their efforts. Everyone has a different playstyle, but ultimately nobody wants to feel that when they overcome a challenge, it's unimportant or futile.

The problem with this upcoming system is that it rewards nobody. Even getting a piece of raid loot will probably have a lot of bad feelings associated with it. People who successfully complete a difficult raid with just a few people feel let down when they receive nothing more for their efforts than they could have gotten by joining a large group and just zerging through, turning their brain off.

People who get invited to a group only to find that they're guilted or badgered into giving up their loot feel disappointed and bitter, and likely to be suspicious of future groups, making it less likely that they'll give someone something they need.

People who have spent time and effort bringing new people in, teaching them the ropes, and finding that in the end, the item they've wanted for so long instead goes to someone else who did little for the group are going to feel resentful.

This isn't because people are fundamentally greedy, it's because people associate loot with reward. Nobody wants to feel like they're doing something for nothing, regardless of who they choose to group with.

Even if a quest is fun and exciting, the reward is an essential part of the fun, at any level. It gives a sense of completion, a sense that someone cares about you, the player, playing their game. It shows that someone out there respects your efforts and has set up a game where you can enjoy what you feel you've earned. In the end, if you feel that skill or effort isn't going to be rewarded, what's the point, ultimately, of doing anything?

Devs and players don't necessarily interact directly, but they do interact through the game mechanics. If people get the feeling that their accomplishments are unimportant, a lot of the fun of playing a game is lost. Why play a game that someone else made? For a sense of fun, exploration, and challenge. The loot is an essential part of this.

How many people have played a game where the reward was to open up a new section of the storyline, or to get more information about your character's past, like Torment? That game had very little in the way of loot, but a lot of people played it and loved it, and remember it fondly. The real reward there was that you could unlock more of your character's past and his story. What that has in common with DDO loot is simple: the sense that there's a point to the game you're playing, that the people behind it have thought about it and made sure that you are getting the sense of reward that will make it fun for you, and an incentive to keep progressing.

People need rewards, not just in games, but in life as well. In fact all our life we search to better ourselves, to receive rewards in terms of experiences, memories, better jobs, nicer houses. Why should a game not follow that simple concept in a more fair way than real life sometimes does?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

GREAT post, Plynx.

I'd like to add that I think a lot of people confuse the need for reward with greed.

All players wants to feel that their time matters, and that they will see a tangible reward for their efforts. Everyone has a different playstyle, but ultimately nobody wants to feel that when they overcome a challenge, it's unimportant or futile. \

That's why the system had to change. I stopped running raids for a while because it was a unfair and unrewarding. I run them now only if my guild needs me (and I do it then for the fun of running with them). Running raids under the current system is pointless and unfair.

[Plynx]

That's why the system had to change. I stopped running raids for a while because it was a unfair and unrewarding. I run them now only if my guild needs me (and I do it then for the fun of running with them). Running raids under the current system is pointless and unfair.

And you believe the new system will provide more fun and fewer bad feelings?

[Scarsgaard]

Not dissagreeing with the above posts... all are well writ and understand the key basic principle... more bang for your buck.

I won't knock someone for being more casualk in play style. Thats cool by me... play how you want to play. Just don't knock me and others for wanting a speed run and short manning... that's our business so step off.

Same thing is... is that do skew our game because your once a month run doesn't yield you a treat every time... realize that we run DQ 6+ times a week, velah? lots... we do this because ... thats what we do...

Saying tht we ruin the game for you is like comparing yourself to Holmes... and man that brother was 11 inches... forget about it.. he's in a different game than you by far...so play your game... I'll play mine and don't get upset taht the law of averages doesn't favour you.

[Yabba]

The first time I ran Von with my Cleric I rolled for and won the +6 Wis Helm.

The next time I ran with her, I wasn't allowed to roll on any of the items because according to the party leader, they were deemed not suitable for Clerics.

I'm not sure if you've ever run a cleric through Von 5/6 before but CSW Wands and Raise Dead Scrolls aren't cheap.

So now I only run Von 5/6 on my rangers while we all sit around waiting to get 2 clerics into the party.

At least with the new system, any of my characters can be rewarded with a piece of raid loot and if I decide it's not needed for my build, I can cut a deal with someone who wants it.

[Plynx]

At least with the new system, any of my characters can be rewarded with a piece of raid loot and if I decide it's not needed for my build, I can cut a deal with someone who wants it.

AHA! So this is it! Because the loot is assigned in your name in the chest, you think you will have first dibs!

[Yabba]

AHA! So this is it! Because the loot is assigned in your name in the chest, you think you will have first dibs!

Yes. It's my preciousssss.

When you loot The Eye of Kardin in PoP, do you have first dibs?

How is raid loot any different?

You go in. You beat the quest. You take your loot.

If you can't use that item on your character you trade it.

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

Yes. It's my preciousssss.

When you loot The Eye of Kardin in PoP, do you have first dibs?

How is raid loot any different?

You go in. You beat the quest. You take your loot.

If you can't use that item on your character you trade it.

Because that just isn't how it works. When do raid leaders currently do this? They have access to both items, do they make people trade for them before he will hand out glyphs? Does he just take them for himself because he thinks they suit his character? In both cases, possibly, but if they do people won't group with him any more. In most cases others are open to roll on an item if it benefits them, so why would it be different now?

[TechNoFear]

The up side to the new mechanic is more loot, the warded chest has something for everybody. This is a good change.

The 'downside' is that a huge benifit for running the raid short manned has been removed. If you can currently do the raid with 2 players, then anyone else is just reducing your chance at raid loot.

With the new loot mechanic there is little reason not to include more people in the raid. They will all get some loot (not that it will be 'good').

BUT the most powerful players on the server will no longer have a 100% chance at raid loot each time they (duo) run a raid.

Seems to be a change that favours the majority over the few......

EDIT: I have been looking at the posters who dislike this change. They seem to have one thing in common, multiple capped characters.....

[Talson]

Because that just isn't how it works. When do raid leaders currently do this? They have access to both items, do they make people trade for them before he will hand out glyphs? Does he just take them for himself because he thinks they suit his character? In both cases, possibly, but if they do people won't group with him any more. In most cases others are open to roll on an item if it benefits them, so why would it be different now?

What's different in the proposed system is the game has already rolled for you and determined who won the loot rolls. On the off chance you don't need a raid loot item that was slated to be yours you might be able let someone else loot it....

In a pug this might be by seeking the best trade item... Again it's that players item to do what they please with.

In a guild they'd probably have others roll off on items that the person the loot was assigned to but wasn't interested in...

Though that is all based on the thought that a bound item can be traded prior to being looted till we see mod five in action I'm not sure about that.

-Tal

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

What's different in the proposed system is the game has already rolled for you and determined who won the loot rolls. On the off chance you don't need a raid loot item that was slated to be yours you might be able let someone else loot it....

In a pug this might be by seeking the best trade item... Again it's that players item to do what they please with.

In a guild they'd probably have others roll off on items that the person the loot was assigned to but wasn't interested in...

Though that is all based on the thought that a bound item can be traded prior to being looted till we see mod five in action I'm not sure about that.

-Tal

You'd better hope that the game was nice enough to roll something good for your character then.

Considering that if you wanted to trade, and you're a casual gamer, you're going to have far less trade worthy items than the power gamer sitting next to you. That is, if Bob who actually found the Sword of Shadows in his chest didn't decide it would be perfect for his wizard.

Ah, but at least everyone has finally let me in. All these raids I've been leading, I didn't even realize that all the raid items were inherently mine. And here I was silly enough to let others roll on and take them. Doh!

[Talson]

You'd better hope that the game was nice enough to roll something good for your character then.

Considering that if you wanted to trade, and you're a casual gamer, you're going to have far less trade worthy items than the power gamer sitting next to you. That is, if Bob who actually found the Sword of Shadows in his chest didn't decide it would be perfect for his wizard.

Ah, but at least everyone has finally let me in. All these raids I've been leading, I didn't even realize that all the raid items were inherently mine. And here I was silly enough to let others roll on and take them. Doh!

LOL yep you hit the fatal flaw in the new system head on... Although you're a bit off in the current system those items wouldn't be inherantly the group leaders since the game or the group had not rolled for them.

You certainly could be D.B. in the current system and as raid leader collect the loot that had not ben rolled for yet by the game or the players but hopefully the server would polce itself and others would learn not to join groups ran by guilds or leaders that did this....

Under the new system again the game has rolled the players don't need to. So if tim the enchanter decides to keep SOS it would his to keep. Ideally if he couldn't use it he'd let others roll for it and there would be mechanic that let others loot an item that was to be bound so a melee could loot it...

(edits due to falling asleep)

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

LOL yep you hit the fatal flaw in the new system head on...

The fatal flaw is the assumption that raid loot that appears under your name will be inherently yours.

Although you're a bit off in the current system those items wouldn't be inherantly the group leaders since the game or the group had not rolled for them.

Every item is rolled on to determine what it actually is. There is no difference here than before, aside from the group leader not having direct access to the raid loots.

You certainly could be D.B. () in the current system and as raid (leader) collect the loot that had not ben rolled for yet by the game or the players but hopefully the server would polce itself and others would learn not to join groups ran by guilds or leaders that did this....

This is exactly what will happen to people who decide they come before the group. Whether it be leaders now or group-members later it makes no difference.

[Talson]

The fatal flaw is the assumption that raid loot that appears under your name will be inherently yours.

Since the chest has loot for everyone there is no assumption here it is yours first and foremost. Hopefully in the case you can't use it, it doesn't help your character, or you already have it you'll let others roll on it.

Every item is rolled on to determine what it actually is. There is no difference here than before, aside from the group leader not having direct access to the raid loots.

This assumes that it can be traded...

This is exactly what will happen to people who decide they come before the group. Whether it be leaders now or group-members later it makes no difference.

Yes I'd take issue with a caster that looted SoS and didn't let melees roll (they'd not be in on subsequent raid groups)

If a fighter looted it and was going to use it though there's nothing to complain about out it was his item to loot and he's goin to use it.

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

I still fail to see how this is different from what we have now. The raid leader isn't expected to just take whichever item most benefits him, why would anybody else? It's essentially the same thing as using the rarely used option that gave raid glyphs to random people. I can only assume that didn't give those people free reign to trade their glyph to the highest bidder or to run off with an item.

Just because you have access to the item doesn't mean you should screw everyone else and take it. It doesn't matter that they got some sort of dorky item in their chest, they still essentially get shafted by you and get nothing despite putting in just as much work as you did. That's not fair in the old system, how is it fair now? Because an item was arbitrarily placed into your chest? Not likely.

[Zorlinta]

Yeah in a perfect world this will be a great system, but we are talking about humans, and where is the oportunity of greed there will be. So now instead that leader be the greed one, now anyone can be greed, the posibilities of it are increased exponentially, so your minimal chance of having a named item will not growth with many parties (specially pugs), it will remain in minimal chance and with the con that if people thinks that you may not use it you should give it away.

As how i see it, wouldnt gonna benefit in much to casual players, mostly it gonna reduce their posibilities to have good groups. So im sure that if a guild could not fill the 12 spots for a perfect group then they will run with the ammount of ppl they have and eat the % of not have the extra ppl shared item, because if them not share (wich may be the common case on a pug player) = not run with that player %, and without the risk of success failure involved with an unknow player.

edit:
So if u cant get the better gain result, then you must go with the less loose result

[jaitee]

soo just imagine this

BOB: i really want a kardins eye, for this pally
BILLY: me too, ive done POP so many times, but i only get to play every so often though

BOB: well i just need one, for the extra saves, i have 3 extras on my other toons for them to use
BILLY: your lucky
BOB: i guess so
BILLY: well lets get to POP, our groups is waiting
BOB: *stabs the beholder in the eye* YEA!! you see that, his gusts got on your new shirt
BILLY: i know, my mom made this shirt for me, too bad its bloody now

BOB: owell who cares
BILLY: well good luck on the kardins eye everyone
BOB: yea ok.......
BILLY: *opens chest*
BOB: holy mother of gusts that got on billys shirt, i just pulled a kardins eye!!
BILLY: wow your soo lucky

BOB: you know billy we have known each other for a while
BILLY: yea....YEA???
BOB: well i was just thinking, that you know
BILLY: you KNOW??
BOB: yea that this kardins eye fits perfectly in my trinkets slot, after all, i did kill the beholder, and you didnt

BILLY: oh....but you have 3 of them though
BOB: so WHAT billy, i pulled it, you DIDNT
BILLY: well with the 16% chance of a kardins eye dropping, its almost slim to not ever get one, and you have 3, oh please bob, oh please
BOB: oh please, your even lucky, i let you, The average pugging type of player come with me

BILLY: i helped too..i think..
BOB: i fought that beholder all by myself, you ran into the electric field by the door, and then got mind blasted, i had to tell you 27 times to put a death block item on...
BILLY: *starts to feel down* but i had bad saves, and and and i really need one for more saves...
BOB: and then you ask me for this named item? you must be joking, go home to your mommy, YOU DONT NEED THIS!!
BILLY: but..but if you help me farm this kardins eye with some of your elite friends, we will have 6 chances at one eye, making it a 1/6 chance

BOB: billy are you dumb? why on earth would i run this quest, for one item, and the drop rate is 16%?
BILLY: because......
BOB: just go home, no one will just take you in here to get you free loot/gear when we have to do the work, and you receive the loot..
BILLY: *cries and runs off into the distance, and leaves the dungeon*

now relate that to a raid, and then think about need before greed, then smile, then think about the new raid system, then think about the old raid system, then jump up and down, and laugh real hard

[Talson]

I still fail to see how this is different from what we have now. The raid leader isn't expected to just take whichever item most benefits him, why would anybody else? It's essentially the same thing as using the rarely used option that gave raid glyphs to random people. I can only assume that didn't give those people free reign to trade their glyph to the highest bidder or to run off with an item.

Just because you have access to the item doesn't mean you should screw everyone else and take it. It doesn't matter that they got some sort of dorky item in their chest, they still essentially get shafted by you and get nothing despite putting in just as much work as you did. That's not fair in the old system, how is it fair now? Because an item was arbitrarily placed into your chest? Not likely.

That's why I'm an advocate of raid tokens for the fairness aspect... As for the raid loot it's a one and six chance that you'll have loot what having more in your group is increasing is the odds that a duplicate item will drop that a player doesn't need, or a class inapropriate item drops and thus is rolled off for.

For a pug group who knows how they'll handle it... As for the method of rollng for glyphs well it's gone now that the loot has already been devided up and assigned to each person in the party. Everyone that went on the raid had an equal shot at getting loot. Unbiasedly the game rolled and determined who won it rather than the party in the old system.

I'd just hope in cases a person couldn't use the item they'll let others roll for it.