Reducing negativity in DDO from raid loot

[Yabba]

I still fail to see how this is different from what we have now. The raid leader isn't expected to just take whichever item most benefits him, why would anybody else? It's essentially the same thing as using the rarely used option that gave raid glyphs to random people. I can only assume that didn't give those people free reign to trade their glyph to the highest bidder or to run off with an item.

Just because you have access to the item doesn't mean you should screw everyone else and take it. It doesn't matter that they got some sort of dorky item in their chest, they still essentially get shafted by you and get nothing despite putting in just as much work as you did. That's not fair in the old system, how is it fair now? Because an item was arbitrarily placed into your chest? Not likely.

The difference is, the leader isn't making any assumptions that a person doesn't need to roll on a particular item because it's not appropriate for his build.

The game assigns raid loot randomly (it could be 12 pieces or it could be none) and the player decides if he will use it or not. If he will use it then he needs it and loots it. If not. He offers it for trade.

I give my friends/guildies items all the time. Even uber items like vorpals, smiters, paralysers, tomes, chaosgardes, planar girds and regular items. All of these items, I have given away at one time or another. Giving away a piece of raid loot I won't use doesn't bother me at all.

In a guild raid, the need before greed aspect can still be played out. Nothing has changed.

In a pug....... you take your chances like any other time. Just with the new system, you won't get told you can't roll on that item because it's not suitable for your build, even though the person telling you this know very little about your build or play style.

[Dragonhyde]

In a pug....... you take your chances like any other time. Just with the new system, you won't get told you can't roll on that item because it's not suitable for your build, even though the person telling you this know very little about your build or play style.

That is just the reason why I really don't see this as being a reason for people to invite people they dont know into a raid. As it is now if you and your friends are capable of lowmanning a raid and you are after one item then you might pug out spots to avoid item rot. But what is your incentive now to pug it out? Increase your chances of getting an item? Doesn't work that way , whether you solo or 12 man you have the same chance of getting a named item. Other than guild groups trying to maximize their potential of seeing multiple named drop in one group, I personally see no substantial reason for someone to fill out a raid. The loot is all random but now if you lowman there is not always 2 items which might get left or vendored. And everytime someone sees you with a raid item you may still be called a powergaming elitist no matter if you soloed or got it in a 12 man pug.

[ahpook]

Because that just isn't how it works. When do raid leaders currently do this? ...

That is not "how it works" because people spent the last year adjusting to a system that was hated. All other loot works with the reserved loot system so there is no "how it works" manifesto that dictates raid loot cannot work that way as well.

I think that if they changed to this system a week after the dragon was released everyone would have cheered. Now that people have spent a year learning how to maximize the returns of the glyph system they complain. People do that about change.

[ahpook]

That is just the reason why I really don't see this as being a reason for people to invite people they dont know into a raid. As it is now if you and your friends are capable of lowmanning a raid and you are after one item then you might pug out spots to avoid item rot. ....

As opposed to the current system??

The current system definitely discourages more people as that is more people that are going to want one of the 2 items. With new system if me and my three buddies want to run the raid we can agree to share the loot however we want. If we bring extra people along it has NO EFFECT on our loot sharing. Because they get their own. The loot they get wouldn't be there at all if we didn't bring them along. And maybe they will agree to me my buddies plan and thus improve our chances to get what we want (compared to not running with them, not compared to the old system).

The only thing that could affect me is my own envy if one of the other people get something I want. That is not a real problem. Just me being pathetic.

[Gimpster]

When you loot The Eye of Kardin in PoP, do you have first dibs?
How is raid loot any different?

Isn't this obvious?

It's different because the raid loot can't be traded once it's out of the chest.

When you loot Kardin's Eye, you can decide later on to trade it to any character on that server, including your own other characters. But when you loot a raid item under the new system, you can only possibly trade it to someone in the group with you, and only if you decide right away.

Nobody would bother slowing down the quest to negotiate for a named item that drops when they know they can ask about it later, and that the guy who pulled it will probably have an alt or a friend in mind to give it to. But naturally they will ask about having stuff assigned to them from chests if they know you won't be allowed to trade it later once its taken.

[Dimicron]

And you believe the new system will provide more fun and fewer bad feelings?

Here's the only problem I can see with the new system. Say I'm on the dragon raid with my fighter. My fighter pulls the dragon eye (of the magi trinket I think). Now, instead of the raid leader being the one to decide who gets it, it's now on me... along with the hatred that gets pushed off on the raid leader when someone doesn't win something under the current system. Of course if one of the arcanes in the group pulls the Sword of Shadows...

You aren't going to be able to make everyone happy no matter what, but I hope that the checkbox to be implemented that lets you toggle class appropriate loot applies to the raid loot as well(though even that for certain multiclass builds will still have them hating life). I'm on the fence on the new system. I can see it helping, but I can also see it hurting. I feel that I've put in my time helping others raid and now that I've put in my dues and am starting to be able to claim the good stuff, well, I want my raid loot too. I can't help but feel a bit cheated by the system changing now after it's been around for a year in its current incarnation. I will be happy to hopefully see more than 2 raid loot items per chest though. It sounds to me like this is just a way for them to try to get more people raiding. Now if they'd change the way people can get flagged for them(make a way to skip VoN1-4 please! I really should be on a first name basis with Barrow d'Kundarak by now.)

[Aspenor]

This new system is going to be a complete disaster. I can see it now:

Wizard: "I got a +3 strength tome!"
Fighter: "I got the Napkin"
Wizard: "Let's trade!"
Fighter: "You first."
Wizard: "No, you first."
Fighter tells GuildieCleric: "Keep the napkin"
Fighter: "Assign them to our cleric, he will be the middle-man."
Wizard: "Okay" /assigns tome
Fighter:/assigns Napkin
Cleric: /assigns tome
Cleric: /loots Napkin
Wizard: "HEY!!! what are you doing?!"
Fighter: /loots tome
Fighter & Cleric /recall

[ahpook]

This new system is going to be a complete disaster. I can see it now:

Wizard: "I got a +3 strength tome!"
Fighter: "I got the Napkin"
Wizard: "Let's trade!"
Fighter: "You first."
Wizard: "No, you first."
Fighter tells GuildieCleric: "Keep the napkin"
Fighter: "Assign them to our cleric, he will be the middle-man."
Wizard: "Okay" /assigns tome
Fighter:/assigns Napkin
Cleric: /assigns tome
Cleric: /loots Napkin
Wizard: "HEY!!! what are you doing?!"
Fighter: /loots tome
Fighter & Cleric /recall

These little plays are all rather silly. They are exactly same things people were saying about the old system. You know, the system that they no longer want changed. If we have learned anything from the old system its that most people that play are good people. A far more likely scenario is

Wiz: "Hey I got the SoS. Weren't you looking for that Mr Fighter. Let me assign it to you."

At least that is my experience the game.

[Plynx]

That is not "how it works" because people spent the last year adjusting to a system that was hated. All other loot works with the reserved loot system so there is no "how it works" manifesto that dictates raid loot cannot work that way as well.

I think that if they changed to this system a week after the dragon was released everyone would have cheered. Now that people have spent a year learning how to maximize the returns of the glyph system they complain. People do that about change.

The raid loot binds, and that makes all the difference. On top of that, raids are on timers, and some have extensive qualifying quest series that must be run each time. It's not like other loot situations (even for rare drops like the Planar Gird), at all.

With that amount of scarcity, players feel the need to set up whatever system they can to make sure they get the most out of the effort they put in. In other MMOs, they go to DKP, which essentially turns random loot drop systems like this into token systems (because that is what players really want). Regardless of what crazy random thing the game does in assigning loot, all players in the raiding group agree to give the loot to each other in some predefined way. The more scarce something is, the more need to set up systems like that--and they are by definition closed--not very inclusive at all, and certainly not transportable from one group to another.

The new way of doing things just ups the scarcity, revealing in more stark detail all the ugly problems that were already there. Players don't like putting in a lot of effort for nothing, and the players who care the most can and will set up their own systems to correct for that. Fighting over the systems will generate drama and ill will. Not having the systems will generate even more drama and ill will, as players struggle with complex haggling, peer pressure, murky need or greed analysis, greedy players, uninformed or ignorant players who merely loot, etc. Just the scarcity itself will generate drama and ill will, as players get sick and tired, and possibly bitter, when not being able to find something useful after many attempts and much effort. In fact, this last bit is much how non-regular-raiders feel today about raids, and that won't change (since the math of 1/6 was true before and after for 12 person groups, as is the random assignment of who gets what loot).

I really think everyone is right in this discussion. Infrequent raiders (like me) shouldn't feel that raids are mostly wasted effort. Frequent raiders shouldn't be forced to create their own closed systems to compensate for bad distribution of binding loot. No one wants to have to compete with their friends for loot after what is supposed to be an accomplishment of camaraderie and teamwork! (And if the loot binds, just assigning random names to potential random loot does NOT preclude that competition--it just won't--it never has, in any MMO).

I think most people want change. But I really don't think this is the right change. You can't design human nature out of a system, it must account for it and interact with it. Human nature abhors doing a lot of work for nothing, and putting people in that potential situation will bring out quite a lot of unpleasantness.

[Cinwulf]

To me these terms casual and hardcore mean nothing in terms of how one does a raid. One hardly has to be "hardcore" to shortman a raid.

[Shyver]

A far more likely scenario is

Wiz: "Hey I got the SoS. Weren't you looking for that Mr Fighter. Let me assign it to you."

At least that is my experience the game.

As soon as raid loot gets looked at as being someones before a roll or trade. I'm thinking you will see a vast decline in something for nothing trades when it comes to those items.

[Talson]

As soon as raid loot gets looked at as being someones before a roll or trade. I'm thinking you will see a vast decline in something for nothing trades when it comes to those items.

I'm going to guess that for guilds that are playing together often it won't be a problem... For a pug group it could be interesting. To me since the loot is already assigned I doubt you'll see too many guilds pugging raid spots to players people in the guild don't already know... If as a guild you're trying to maximize potential raid loot drops you're going to do it with people who will likely be willing to let others roll for items they can't use. Since player x is an unknown you'd likely avoid inviting them and ask around to see if a friend of th guild wanted to run the raid.

-Tal

[Shyver]

I'm going to guess that for guilds that are playing together often it won't be a problem... For a pug group it could be interesting. To me since the loot is already assigned I doubt you'll see too many guilds pugging raid spots to players people in the guild don't already know... If as a guild you're trying to maximize potential raid loot drops you're going to do it with people who will likely be willing to let others roll for items they can't use. Since player x is an unknown you'd likely avoid inviting them and ask around to see if a friend of th guild wanted to run the raid.

-Tal

Agreed, which in turn doesn't benefit the casual gamer into getting into any more raid groups than before. Few guilds will be pugging out raid spots.

[oronisi]

Man, the only complaint for the old system I keep reading is that it's unfair because the party leader distributes the loot as he/she sees fit, and it's not fair to you.....but that breaks my head because:

There's no rule that says you can't be party leader. If you can't be fair to yourself, the universe splits in 2 and we all die.

So basically, everyone that didn't like the old system is their own problem, until someone can present a better arguement.

[Gimpster]

Man, the only complaint for the old system I keep reading is that it's unfair because the party leader distributes the loot as he/she sees fit, and it's not fair to you.....but that breaks my head because

They are correct that the old system allowed some unfairness because the party-leader might decide to distribute the loot in a biased way. That is only a rare problem, but it does happen sometimes, and there are ways the system could be changed to avoid it.

However- the new system doesn't fix that problem. It simply changes the form from "The raid leader might be unfair" to "A raid member might be unfair". A token-based system, for example, would solve the problem completely.

[Aspenor]

These little plays are all rather silly. They are exactly same things people were saying about the old system. You know, the system that they no longer want changed. If we have learned anything from the old system its that most people that play are good people. A far more likely scenario is

Wiz: "Hey I got the SoS. Weren't you looking for that Mr Fighter. Let me assign it to you."

At least that is my experience the game.

I never really wanted the system changed, and yes, I think the plays are a little silly. If they're really changing the system because of unscrupulous leaders, there's no difference in the new system at all, except that you have to trust 11 people instead of 1.

To me, the new raid system is an obvious attempt to curb the influx of raid loot via exploiting (GOOD) and via shortmanning raids (BAD). It curdles the devs blood that we can do these quests with 2 people.

[Clerical]

The main effect of this change will be a drastic reduction in pug raids in my opinion, and a decrease of raid loot for anyone casual or unguilded.

In the old system a few guild players or very experienced players would start up a pug raid and fill the group with whoever was flagged and could manage to turn on the computer. They would raid and divide up the loot by rolls ussually.. sometimes the leaders would be unfair about it and word woudl get out about them. The people starting the raid and who knew what was going on controlled the end loot and were able to ensure fairness if they themselves were fair-minded. Again if they were not fair-minded word gets out and noone joins those people's raids. Joe random sorc can get a peice of raid loot if he rolls lucky, and noone will be upset because it was at least decided fairly.

In the new system the people starting and leading the pug raids before would be less likely to even start up a pug raid, knowing full well that no-one had control over the end loot and joe random sorc who just managed to get his toon to lvl 8 yesterday could run off with the sword of shadows on his caster and proclaim himself uber spellsword of the world. Loot in the end of a pug raid can still be divided up fairly, but only if all 12 people in the raid are fairminded. The chances of this are less than the chances the 1 leader would be. Joe random will still get raid loot if he's lucky and dishonest, or if he wins a roll off. This does make it more likely the casual dishonest player will get raid loot.. but only if people kept making pug raids as they used to, which will not happen.

I think as a whole this hurts the casual raider almost as much as it hurts the guildies who run it 2 man over and over. It ends up meaning less loot all round and less raids run in total. The first of many loot nerfs to come? Theres certainly been enough people on here calling for a loot nerf, this is one way to sneak one in and call it an "improvement".

[JosephKell]

There's lots of ways it could start, from a small core group inviting puggers and then browbeating them into transferring loot, to watching a perceived noob who was a liability to the raid getting your cherished and wanted item, to arguments over which classes and/or players are entitled to rolls, and many other ways besides. It's negativity waiting to happen.

How would that be any different than regular chests in DDO? I don't see this ever happening on normal chests, therefore I don't believe it would happen from warded chests.

And as I understand it, isn't the new method: Everyone gets something, and there is a 16.6666~6% chance that it is an item from the static list?

So again, I ask, "How is that any different than when any other named item spawns in a chest?"

The main effect of this change will be a drastic reduction in pug raids in my opinion, and a decrease of raid loot for anyone casual or unguilded.

Huh? Each person's item spawn is random and independant. There isn't a "Only a max of 2 items in the chest will be from the static list for that chest" limit. It is possible (but highly unlikely) that all items spawning could be from the static list.

In the old system a few guild players or very experienced players would start up a pug raid and fill the group with whoever was flagged and could manage to turn on the computer. *snip*

Maybe they would, but it is also possible that that guild would fill up the raid with PuGers and say, "Just so you know, you have a -20 on your warded chest roll."

In the new system the people starting and leading the pug raids before would be less likely to even start up a pug raid, knowing full well that no-one had control over the end loot...*snip*

Precisely. My spawn is separate from your spawn is separate from Joe Sorc's spawn. If Joe Sorc spawns a Sword of Shadows and your Barbarian spawns the 3/rest SP trinket in the Dragon Chest, I am sure you would both reallocate the item to each other. Yeah you could screw each other by saying, "You go first," and then not doing it, but like you said for the old method: you develop a reputation.

I think as a whole this hurts the casual raider almost as much as it hurts the guildies who run it 2 man over and over. It ends up meaning less loot all round and less raids run in total. The first of many loot nerfs to come? Theres certainly been enough people on here calling for a loot nerf, this is one way to sneak one in and call it an "improvement".

I think you just like the item of being guaranteed two items from the static list. I know I like the thought of that, but I would rather everyone get something. I just hope that the Warded Chest item gets a boost on the item level for the random gens so that a level 10 weapon/armor or similar misc item is spawned instead of a level 4 or 6.

[oronisi]

How would that be any different than regular chests in DDO? I don't see this ever happening on normal chests, therefore I don't believe it would happen from warded chests.

And as I understand it, isn't the new method: Everyone gets something, and there is a 16.6666~6% chance that it is an item from the static list?

So again, I ask, "How is that any different than when any other named item spawns in a chest?"

This is so simple it's going to hurt. You may want to sit down.

1) RAID loot is better in most cases, and in many cases, imposible to duplicate elsewhere from random loot (see just about every raid trinket)

2) RAID loot is bind-on pickup. All other chest loot you can trade for or buy on the AH later on, after the quest is done.

[JosephKell]

This is so simple it's going to hurt. You may want to sit down.

1) RAID loot is better in most cases, and in many cases, imposible to duplicate elsewhere from random loot (see just about every raid trinket)

2) RAID loot is bind-on pickup. All other chest loot you can trade for or buy on the AH later on, after the quest is done.

I meant how would the "Warded Chest Browbeating" be any different than "Standard Chest Browbeating"? Yeah it is better, but the same can be said about Prison of the Planes chests over Waterworks chests.

I have never had someone try to browbeat me in this game.

And if they do, so what? Why would I want to play through any sort of future dungeon with a person that tries to bully me into giving away my loot?

Everyone is replaceable no matter how great their 'skillz' are, but bullies are replaced with glee.