Reducing negativity in DDO from raid loot

[Plynx]

I really hate seeing this debate framed in terms of hardcore vs. casual. As a longtime MMO player, I really feel that these categories don't "stick"--the generalizations people make don't apply, and what people think hardcores or casuals want isn't really what they want.

I want to talk about something else: human nature and fun. I really don't feel like people will have fun with the new raid mechanic, simply because it is human nature for effort to breed a sense of entitlement. When that feeling of entitlement is thwarted, it results in a lot of negative feelings. There's lots of ways it could start, from a small core group inviting puggers and then browbeating them into transferring loot, to watching a perceived noob who was a liability to the raid getting your cherished and wanted item, to arguments over which classes and/or players are entitled to rolls, and many other ways besides. It's negativity waiting to happen.

When faced with this kind of situation, players create their own systems. In other games players frequently design and use their own DKP (a point based loot distribution system, for those who don't know) systems. Guilds then become havens for people who agree to a common loot distribution method and raid schedule... not necessarily friends who enjoy playing with each other--for various reasons it can be too hard to have both. The point is, of course, to restore the idea that effort will be rewarded and to curb some of the negativity mentioned above. As DDO is currently, the problems are exactly the same, however, players have another recourse: run with fewer players to remove the scarcity and increase the effort to reward ratio. From what I understand, most guilds don't even need loot distribution systems because of this option.

Any kind of scarcity that results in players having to create mini-governments to try to cut down on bad feelings is, I think, bad for fun in general. If you had a one in whatever chance of getting a token you could trade in for a raid item of your choice, all of those bad feelings could be avoided and the devs could still set whatever level of scarcity they want to have for raid loot. As many others have pointed out, it seems like an excellent solution unless there are some other obscure design intents we don't know about.

Note that I do not care about math, the average chance of getting raid loot per run, exploits, or how easy or hard raids are or should be. In my opinion, all of the discussion on those topics are just variations on people trying to match up effort with entitlement. But I believe that players shouldn't have to, ultimately. In fact, if the new system were to work exactly the same as proposed, but without allowing players to reassign loot, it would generate fewer negative feelings between players overall--despite giving out less useful raid loot to players! The system as designed only gives you the power to give "your" loot away--which is a very negative presentation! Even simple things, like the fact that DDO doesn't have an "inspect" feature, are incredible at reducing negative player feelings. But these things are often overlooked in discussions like these.

No system that has rare and valuable items ostensibly offered in exchange for extended effort should leave aside the question of human nature in the face of scarcity. In fact, I believe it is the first and MOST important question. How can we get the most people to have fun and reduce any potential hard feelings--from the outset? The math and whatever else can come after.



[I want to add a "don't pigeonhole me" disclaimer here at the end, since currently many posters seem eager to categorize others as either casual or hardcore and dismiss them. I am a semi-casual semi-hardcore gamer--I play almost every day for a few hours, but with a few core friends. We are excellent players but aim for fun over uber. I have only ever raided with 12 people, and I have no raid loot to my name. I am a relatively new DDO player. I have one level 14 with 1450 favor and one level 5 drow. My experience with loot mechanics comes from the lessons learned the hard way in other MMOs--my main concern is not about obtaining raid loot, but on the overall health and fun of the game of DDO for all players.]

[muffinlad]

Very good post Plynx.

I have to say, the Role Players deployed their system for many of the reasons you indicated, and further, if we had the "new" system in place, we would not have had to.

I can tell not everyone is happy with it, and that does concern me from a happiness standpoint, but in the end not everyone will be happy no matter what happens.

Regs,

muffinjester

[Neferi]

GREAT post, Plynx.

I'd like to add that I think a lot of people confuse the need for reward with greed.

All players wants to feel that their time matters, and that they will see a tangible reward for their efforts. Everyone has a different playstyle, but ultimately nobody wants to feel that when they overcome a challenge, it's unimportant or futile.

The problem with this upcoming system is that it rewards nobody. Even getting a piece of raid loot will probably have a lot of bad feelings associated with it. People who successfully complete a difficult raid with just a few people feel let down when they receive nothing more for their efforts than they could have gotten by joining a large group and just zerging through, turning their brain off.

People who get invited to a group only to find that they're guilted or badgered into giving up their loot feel disappointed and bitter, and likely to be suspicious of future groups, making it less likely that they'll give someone something they need.

People who have spent time and effort bringing new people in, teaching them the ropes, and finding that in the end, the item they've wanted for so long instead goes to someone else who did little for the group are going to feel resentful.

This isn't because people are fundamentally greedy, it's because people associate loot with reward. Nobody wants to feel like they're doing something for nothing, regardless of who they choose to group with.

Even if a quest is fun and exciting, the reward is an essential part of the fun, at any level. It gives a sense of completion, a sense that someone cares about you, the player, playing their game. It shows that someone out there respects your efforts and has set up a game where you can enjoy what you feel you've earned. In the end, if you feel that skill or effort isn't going to be rewarded, what's the point, ultimately, of doing anything?

Devs and players don't necessarily interact directly, but they do interact through the game mechanics. If people get the feeling that their accomplishments are unimportant, a lot of the fun of playing a game is lost. Why play a game that someone else made? For a sense of fun, exploration, and challenge. The loot is an essential part of this.

How many people have played a game where the reward was to open up a new section of the storyline, or to get more information about your character's past, like Torment? That game had very little in the way of loot, but a lot of people played it and loved it, and remember it fondly. The real reward there was that you could unlock more of your character's past and his story. What that has in common with DDO loot is simple: the sense that there's a point to the game you're playing, that the people behind it have thought about it and made sure that you are getting the sense of reward that will make it fun for you, and an incentive to keep progressing.

People need rewards, not just in games, but in life as well. In fact all our life we search to better ourselves, to receive rewards in terms of experiences, memories, better jobs, nicer houses. Why should a game not follow that simple concept in a more fair way than real life sometimes does?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

GREAT post, Plynx.

I'd like to add that I think a lot of people confuse the need for reward with greed.

All players wants to feel that their time matters, and that they will see a tangible reward for their efforts. Everyone has a different playstyle, but ultimately nobody wants to feel that when they overcome a challenge, it's unimportant or futile. \

That's why the system had to change. I stopped running raids for a while because it was a unfair and unrewarding. I run them now only if my guild needs me (and I do it then for the fun of running with them). Running raids under the current system is pointless and unfair.

[Plynx]

That's why the system had to change. I stopped running raids for a while because it was a unfair and unrewarding. I run them now only if my guild needs me (and I do it then for the fun of running with them). Running raids under the current system is pointless and unfair.

And you believe the new system will provide more fun and fewer bad feelings?

[Scarsgaard]

Not dissagreeing with the above posts... all are well writ and understand the key basic principle... more bang for your buck.

I won't knock someone for being more casualk in play style. Thats cool by me... play how you want to play. Just don't knock me and others for wanting a speed run and short manning... that's our business so step off.

Same thing is... is that do skew our game because your once a month run doesn't yield you a treat every time... realize that we run DQ 6+ times a week, velah? lots... we do this because ... thats what we do...

Saying tht we ruin the game for you is like comparing yourself to Holmes... and man that brother was 11 inches... forget about it.. he's in a different game than you by far...so play your game... I'll play mine and don't get upset taht the law of averages doesn't favour you.

[Dimicron]

And you believe the new system will provide more fun and fewer bad feelings?

Here's the only problem I can see with the new system. Say I'm on the dragon raid with my fighter. My fighter pulls the dragon eye (of the magi trinket I think). Now, instead of the raid leader being the one to decide who gets it, it's now on me... along with the hatred that gets pushed off on the raid leader when someone doesn't win something under the current system. Of course if one of the arcanes in the group pulls the Sword of Shadows...

You aren't going to be able to make everyone happy no matter what, but I hope that the checkbox to be implemented that lets you toggle class appropriate loot applies to the raid loot as well(though even that for certain multiclass builds will still have them hating life). I'm on the fence on the new system. I can see it helping, but I can also see it hurting. I feel that I've put in my time helping others raid and now that I've put in my dues and am starting to be able to claim the good stuff, well, I want my raid loot too. I can't help but feel a bit cheated by the system changing now after it's been around for a year in its current incarnation. I will be happy to hopefully see more than 2 raid loot items per chest though. It sounds to me like this is just a way for them to try to get more people raiding. Now if they'd change the way people can get flagged for them(make a way to skip VoN1-4 please! I really should be on a first name basis with Barrow d'Kundarak by now.)

[Yabba]

The first time I ran Von with my Cleric I rolled for and won the +6 Wis Helm.

The next time I ran with her, I wasn't allowed to roll on any of the items because according to the party leader, they were deemed not suitable for Clerics.

I'm not sure if you've ever run a cleric through Von 5/6 before but CSW Wands and Raise Dead Scrolls aren't cheap.

So now I only run Von 5/6 on my rangers while we all sit around waiting to get 2 clerics into the party.

At least with the new system, any of my characters can be rewarded with a piece of raid loot and if I decide it's not needed for my build, I can cut a deal with someone who wants it.

[Plynx]

At least with the new system, any of my characters can be rewarded with a piece of raid loot and if I decide it's not needed for my build, I can cut a deal with someone who wants it.

AHA! So this is it! Because the loot is assigned in your name in the chest, you think you will have first dibs!

[JosephKell]

There's lots of ways it could start, from a small core group inviting puggers and then browbeating them into transferring loot, to watching a perceived noob who was a liability to the raid getting your cherished and wanted item, to arguments over which classes and/or players are entitled to rolls, and many other ways besides. It's negativity waiting to happen.

How would that be any different than regular chests in DDO? I don't see this ever happening on normal chests, therefore I don't believe it would happen from warded chests.

And as I understand it, isn't the new method: Everyone gets something, and there is a 16.6666~6% chance that it is an item from the static list?

So again, I ask, "How is that any different than when any other named item spawns in a chest?"

The main effect of this change will be a drastic reduction in pug raids in my opinion, and a decrease of raid loot for anyone casual or unguilded.

Huh? Each person's item spawn is random and independant. There isn't a "Only a max of 2 items in the chest will be from the static list for that chest" limit. It is possible (but highly unlikely) that all items spawning could be from the static list.

In the old system a few guild players or very experienced players would start up a pug raid and fill the group with whoever was flagged and could manage to turn on the computer. *snip*

Maybe they would, but it is also possible that that guild would fill up the raid with PuGers and say, "Just so you know, you have a -20 on your warded chest roll."

In the new system the people starting and leading the pug raids before would be less likely to even start up a pug raid, knowing full well that no-one had control over the end loot...*snip*

Precisely. My spawn is separate from your spawn is separate from Joe Sorc's spawn. If Joe Sorc spawns a Sword of Shadows and your Barbarian spawns the 3/rest SP trinket in the Dragon Chest, I am sure you would both reallocate the item to each other. Yeah you could screw each other by saying, "You go first," and then not doing it, but like you said for the old method: you develop a reputation.

I think as a whole this hurts the casual raider almost as much as it hurts the guildies who run it 2 man over and over. It ends up meaning less loot all round and less raids run in total. The first of many loot nerfs to come? Theres certainly been enough people on here calling for a loot nerf, this is one way to sneak one in and call it an "improvement".

I think you just like the item of being guaranteed two items from the static list. I know I like the thought of that, but I would rather everyone get something. I just hope that the Warded Chest item gets a boost on the item level for the random gens so that a level 10 weapon/armor or similar misc item is spawned instead of a level 4 or 6.

[oronisi]

How would that be any different than regular chests in DDO? I don't see this ever happening on normal chests, therefore I don't believe it would happen from warded chests.

And as I understand it, isn't the new method: Everyone gets something, and there is a 16.6666~6% chance that it is an item from the static list?

So again, I ask, "How is that any different than when any other named item spawns in a chest?"

This is so simple it's going to hurt. You may want to sit down.

1) RAID loot is better in most cases, and in many cases, imposible to duplicate elsewhere from random loot (see just about every raid trinket)

2) RAID loot is bind-on pickup. All other chest loot you can trade for or buy on the AH later on, after the quest is done.

[JosephKell]

This is so simple it's going to hurt. You may want to sit down.

1) RAID loot is better in most cases, and in many cases, imposible to duplicate elsewhere from random loot (see just about every raid trinket)

2) RAID loot is bind-on pickup. All other chest loot you can trade for or buy on the AH later on, after the quest is done.

I meant how would the "Warded Chest Browbeating" be any different than "Standard Chest Browbeating"? Yeah it is better, but the same can be said about Prison of the Planes chests over Waterworks chests.

I have never had someone try to browbeat me in this game.

And if they do, so what? Why would I want to play through any sort of future dungeon with a person that tries to bully me into giving away my loot?

Everyone is replaceable no matter how great their 'skillz' are, but bullies are replaced with glee.

[jaitee]

I meant how would the "Warded Chest Browbeating" be any different than "Standard Chest Browbeating"? Yeah it is better, but the same can be said about Prison of the Planes chests over Waterworks chests.

I have never had someone try to browbeat me in this game.

And if they do, so what? Why would I want to play through any sort of future dungeon with a person that tries to bully me into giving away my loot?

Everyone is replaceable no matter how great their 'skillz' are, but bullies are replaced with glee.

people cant see the light when it comes to raid loot OK? people think all about themself and therefore cant think about anyone else, that is the difference in raid loot and a normal chest

[Clerical]

In my opinion less of the people who currently lead public raids will be willing to bring pugs, they will make a static group or use guildies. That means less chances for pugs/casuals to get loot as they are invited/going on less raids. That is my point.

[Plynx]

people cant see the light when it comes to raid loot OK? people think all about themself and therefore cant think about anyone else, that is the difference in raid loot and a normal chest

That's almost certainly not true. Most people will be very conflicted about it. They will want to care about others and share in their happiness while not wanting to be the one walked over for others' progress. Most will be willing to be fair, some will be "me first" types and still others will be hapless "others first" types who will, sadly, become jaded over time. Although most will be willing to be fair, conceptions of fair will vary. And that will cause fighting--it could be civilly expressed, after all, not every PUG raid will descend into name calling (but some will). But a lot of raids will have the majority of the people walking away with a distinctly sour taste in their mouth (as is already the case today in full raids--this much will not change, I beg of you to see that). Over time, no matter how nice or generous a person, there comes a time when you want your effort to matter, to mean something for you.

Note that I take great joy in others' success and happiness, although there are always exceptions (people who treat you badly or do something offensive to a loved one and so on are very hard to cheer on). Even so, anyone who puts effort into others' success while allowing themselves to stagnate does themselves a great disservice. Even the nicest people will be involved in some very bitter experiences over this.

For those of you who think that there is no real difference between, say, a vorpal and a coveted raid item--think again. Everything you get in the game, yes, even +3 fire guard hide armor of lesser lightning resistance, is in effect a "token" that you can eventually trade in for your vorpal. You *cannot* get raid loot in the same way. It is non-tokenized. If you aren't in a DKP-like scheme, and don't get the raid item from the chest THIS TIME, your considerable effort is wasted. Completely. You might as well have been doing something else with your time, and you would have gotten more out of it. This is assuming the raid is even successful, which is actually another part of the question most discussions are leaving out. And quite obviously, the effort in running, say, Prison of the Planes is but a fraction of the effort in running Velah. (Actually, after running PoP dozens of times, I still find it fun in itself, whereas the same is not true for the VONs, which I have only run 3 times.) If raid loot did not bind, taking the new system at face value and everyone looting what they got, would not be a problem. But it does bind! And there is no measure of progress, nothing that means you are a little closer than last time. You aren't. That makes ALL the difference.