Reducing negativity in DDO from raid loot

[jaitee]

I meant how would the "Warded Chest Browbeating" be any different than "Standard Chest Browbeating"? Yeah it is better, but the same can be said about Prison of the Planes chests over Waterworks chests.

I have never had someone try to browbeat me in this game.

And if they do, so what? Why would I want to play through any sort of future dungeon with a person that tries to bully me into giving away my loot?

Everyone is replaceable no matter how great their 'skillz' are, but bullies are replaced with glee.

people cant see the light when it comes to raid loot OK? people think all about themself and therefore cant think about anyone else, that is the difference in raid loot and a normal chest

[Clerical]

In my opinion less of the people who currently lead public raids will be willing to bring pugs, they will make a static group or use guildies. That means less chances for pugs/casuals to get loot as they are invited/going on less raids. That is my point.

[Ashet]

Maybe it's just my server, but I have never done a raid where at the end the players did not roll dice for the items. Two items, you pick one and roll, highest wins. What can be more fair?

We do run many raids shorthanded these days, this will hurt us in that. Don't see the sense in the change.

[frederjoe1]

OK from what i gather about the loot runs as they exist right now, when the final boss dies and the warded chest spawns, there is a roll to decide what items from the raid treasure table are in the chest, the the two shards are given to the leader of the group, up to this point there has been one roll to decide what type of loot there is. Now the leader looks at the loot and decides who would be able to roll for what item. Now each member rolls for the item and the winner receives the loot...hoping I am getting this correct...

So in the existing system it will only take one roll to decide the type of raid loot and one roll to decide the recipient of the loot.

In the new system, the boss dies and then the chest spawns. A roll is made by each person to decide if they qualify for "raid" loot = 1 roll. Now a second roll is made to determine what item is assigned from the raid treasure table = 1 roll.

Old system = 2 rolls (winner) New system = 2 rolls (winner)

So my question is why would the person who has already won two rolls just like they would have on the previous system be required to basically put their "hard earned" raid loot up for a third roll of the dice when the current system only requires to rolls to determine the "winner"?

For those that are screaming about change, the only things that have changed is that now there is no way to increase your chance at the rare raid loot items, everyone has the same chance.

I am simply trying to break it down to the basics as I understand it, if I have overlooked or misunderstood something I apologize, but in my eyes all the new system has done is level the playing field.

[Gimpster]

So my question is why would the person who has already won two rolls just like they would have on the previous system be required to basically put their "hard earned" raid loot up for a third roll of the dice when the current system only requires to rolls to determine the "winner"?

Why? Because the rest of the raid group made them agree to that before going into the quest. If they didn't agree, they'd be removed from the group, and then they get no raid loot at all.

I don't think many raid leaders will function like that, but some will.

[Dragonhyde]

Originally Posted by frederjoe1
So my question is why would the person who has already won two rolls just like they would have on the previous system be required to basically put their "hard earned" raid loot up for a third roll of the dice when the current system only requires to rolls to determine the "winner"?

Most likely you will only have to face this if you are in a guild or static group raid. A true pug group would likely be a to each his own scenario.

[Plynx]

Most likely you will only have to face this if you are in a guild or static group raid. A true pug group would likely be a to each his own scenario.

It's just not true. It has never, and will never, work that way. In any MMO, ever. Really scarce items + bind on pickup + dumb random distribution + human nature = people will NOT let all of their hard work and effort go to an "each to their own" type scenario more than a handful of times. Not when there are better alternatives. Doing "each to his own" gives you a horrible return on your effort.

People who think that it will be that way are in for a real shock. One by one, players seeking raid loot will "get it" and realize that in order to get what they hope for out of their effort and to not have a horrible raiding experience, they are going to have to opt in to a closed player group with their own loot rules.

[Plynx]

So my question is why would the person who has already won two rolls just like they would have on the previous system be required to basically put their "hard earned" raid loot up for a third roll of the dice when the current system only requires to rolls to determine the "winner"?

For those that are screaming about change, the only things that have changed is that now there is no way to increase your chance at the rare raid loot items, everyone has the same chance.

I am simply trying to break it down to the basics as I understand it, if I have overlooked or misunderstood something I apologize, but in my eyes all the new system has done is level the playing field.

Here's your answer. The loot binds and therefore is extremely non-tokenized. This kind of loot can't be given to your alt, can't be traded for something you want, doesn't help you build up to something better for your character. Either the item is good for your character, or it isn't. If you're a wizard, and you just opened the chest and see the Sword of Shadows (an extremely valuable and highly desirable melee item) in your name--you know two things. One, your name is on something many other players in the party want. And two, the item is nigh useless to you.

Since this is a raid, and everyone has gone through extensive quest qualification repeats and had to wait at least 3 days to qualify for the raid, and everyone has now put many hours of hard work into the quest, everyone wants to feel like they are going to get some kind of useful reward or at least progress--human nature is to resent doing a lot of work for nothing, remember. Now, hopefully, you can clearly see why people would expect another roll on the item--so that everyone's effort isn't wasted. People who get this will set up the rules in advance of the raid so that everyone is on the same page (otherwise explosive arguments and ill will, born out of the frustration from putting a lot of effort into nothing, can be generated at chest looting time). So you will know at the outset whether you will be expected to give up "your" loot to others at chest time. But even if you aren't, that doesn't immunize the raid from feelings of ill will.

[Plynx]

people cant see the light when it comes to raid loot OK? people think all about themself and therefore cant think about anyone else, that is the difference in raid loot and a normal chest

That's almost certainly not true. Most people will be very conflicted about it. They will want to care about others and share in their happiness while not wanting to be the one walked over for others' progress. Most will be willing to be fair, some will be "me first" types and still others will be hapless "others first" types who will, sadly, become jaded over time. Although most will be willing to be fair, conceptions of fair will vary. And that will cause fighting--it could be civilly expressed, after all, not every PUG raid will descend into name calling (but some will). But a lot of raids will have the majority of the people walking away with a distinctly sour taste in their mouth (as is already the case today in full raids--this much will not change, I beg of you to see that). Over time, no matter how nice or generous a person, there comes a time when you want your effort to matter, to mean something for you.

Note that I take great joy in others' success and happiness, although there are always exceptions (people who treat you badly or do something offensive to a loved one and so on are very hard to cheer on). Even so, anyone who puts effort into others' success while allowing themselves to stagnate does themselves a great disservice. Even the nicest people will be involved in some very bitter experiences over this.

For those of you who think that there is no real difference between, say, a vorpal and a coveted raid item--think again. Everything you get in the game, yes, even +3 fire guard hide armor of lesser lightning resistance, is in effect a "token" that you can eventually trade in for your vorpal. You *cannot* get raid loot in the same way. It is non-tokenized. If you aren't in a DKP-like scheme, and don't get the raid item from the chest THIS TIME, your considerable effort is wasted. Completely. You might as well have been doing something else with your time, and you would have gotten more out of it. This is assuming the raid is even successful, which is actually another part of the question most discussions are leaving out. And quite obviously, the effort in running, say, Prison of the Planes is but a fraction of the effort in running Velah. (Actually, after running PoP dozens of times, I still find it fun in itself, whereas the same is not true for the VONs, which I have only run 3 times.) If raid loot did not bind, taking the new system at face value and everyone looting what they got, would not be a problem. But it does bind! And there is no measure of progress, nothing that means you are a little closer than last time. You aren't. That makes ALL the difference.