The Intent of the New Raid Loot System

[GramercyRiff]

People take loot way too seriously. Relax, adapt to the changes, and have fun. If you get loot along the way, it's a bonus.

While I don't think this change is perfect by any means, it brings the true intent of raid loot...that it should be rare. This change is a good idea, but isn't implemented very well.

To properly implement this good idea, they need to get rid of some of the now worthless raid items, like the Nullcloth Gown and the Flamestrike clickie. I'd seriously MUCH rather loot something else, anything else than worthless raid loot. They need to increase the chance of raid loot dropping on higher difficulties. Finally, they need to allow us to be perma flagged for VON and DQ as well as all future raids.

[Naso24]

I actually really like the Reaver raid. It is the first raid that I don't have to invest a huge amount of time on just to be able to repeat it. As such, I am more than happy to train new people how to do it. I think the reaver raid has encouraged some who have avoided the other raids to try them out.

If we fail, it isn't as frustrating as failing a Titan or Dragon raid.

The reaver raid can be completed by a persistent group of appropriate level people without considerable foreknowledge.

While the loot isn't all that some had hoped for, I think it is appropriate given the lower difficulty.

The reaver raid also allows people to try new things or be involved without penalizing the entire party. If someone dies, they can sit in the dead room until completion, or until someone gets to the appropriate switch. The penalty for being creative or doing anything but stand in a particular spot on other raids is just too high.

While the reaver raid can be soloed, it takes a highly skilled player to do it. Only a small percentage fit this bill. Having done the reaver raid solo, I actually prefer running in small groups, and often join other groups that need the help.

If the reaver required a large group all the time, it wouldn't be as rewarding, given the end chests that aren't warded always yield garbage, and the random end reward for completion is no greater than doing a similar level, but much easier quest that requires no prerequisites.

I'd like to see the reaver unchanged. Make the new raid tougher, require more people, etc. At least players will have a choice. At least players will have a better than 2 in 12 chance of getting a reward for the run (more like 2 in ~50 chance of getting something they could actually benefit from).

[Traven]

Just so you know...

We're not taking on Noob PUGs... and I doubt that any of the other Top Guild on Ther and Xor will be doing that either. If anything we'll invite a person who is not in our Guild but is on our "Great Player List" in on a Raid but thats as far as it goes...

...new folkes without experience in the Raids will NOT be getting invites.

i have a question then. if a newer player, or simply someone who doesn't have as much time to play as others, wants to gain said experience doing a raid, how would he or she go about that? without of course getting a full party of inexperienced players and getting wiped time after time because we don't fully understand the complexities of a raid? having disdain for a lower experienced player simply because of the lack of experience is in itself abhorrent. if some people took some time and helped a few people once in a while, then that would mean there would be more players available to do the raids later on.

[Ekental]

i have a question then. if a newer player, or simply someone who doesn't have as much time to play as others, wants to gain said experience doing a raid, how would he or she go about that? without of course getting a full party of inexperienced players and getting wiped time after time because we don't fully understand the complexities of a raid? having disdain for a lower experienced player simply because of the lack of experience is in itself abhorrent. if some people took some time and helped a few people once in a while, then that would mean there would be more players available to do the raids later on.

That's a good point, but the other side of course is... should the experienced players be forced to help you? I doub't that most of them aren't willing to show people how the raids are done. I'm sure if you ask nicely they'll probably be willing to help, even with the current system.

[Raath]

Ok... no one said they didn't want to help out new players. This ALSO comes up a lot. The idea that going against this system means going against helping new players has no merit. The new system forces players, especially those belonging to small guilds, to get more people for a raid in order to get the same # of items as any group gets now. In essence, people should not be forced to "help" new characters. I'm sure that's not the type of "help" anyone appreciates.

Raids are doable once /3 days. I'd happily take a 1/6 chance of loot if they let me raid as many times as I wanted. Comparing it to a normal quest isn't quite valid.

As noted by many people as well, you do NOT have the same chance of getting raid loot as you do now. You have the same chance, with a 12 person party.

Yes, it's been said alot in these various same-topic threads. That's why it comes up alot. Smaller guilds have always had to get more people to raid, since day 1. This isnt anything new, nothing that the new system is forcing. It hasnt always been that these raids could be 6 manned or less. We all had to figure them out somehow.

It most certainly has merrit, since there's been alot of mention of not bringing along players who have never done the raid. Why is that? Why not show more people how to do it? Wheres the harm, you might not get the piece of loot you wanted?? Hows that any different then now?

To me, all of this premature talk about the new loot system reeks of selfishness. My loot, My loot. My loot. Mine.Mine.Mine. I've always been more of a need vs greed type of player, so I guess I just dont get it. I'm going to reserve my judgement of the new system until I see it. I've always believed that all the loot a player needs will come to them....eventually.

[Traven]

That's a good point, but the other side of course is... should the experienced players be forced to help you? I doub't that most of them aren't willing to show people how the raids are done. I'm sure if you ask nicely they'll probably be willing to help, even with the current system.

i'll agree that no player should be forced to do anything. but often i, being a lvl 8 wizard, do not have the experience as most of everyone else. i belong in a guild filled mostly with 14's. i would be up there too probably if i hadn't had to take an 8 month break. but now, only when some of those experienced players decide to do something with thier lower lvls do i get to do anything fun. and finding a decent party outside of the guild is few and far between. i think i'm getting close to where i can start participating, but even when i simply ask what level something is, i hardly ever get a reply. i know that may just be a problem with my guild, but i doubt it. the fact is, alot of experienced players think it below them to help someone else out, unless it is someone they have partied with before and know what they are capable of.

[Jermacide]

The new system doesn't promote bringing pugs, it discourages it. My guild will not be bringing any pugs on raids because we can't trust they will play by our loot rules. Which will not change, the raid items in the chest don't belong to anyone until they are rolled on by all interested parties. With puggers there's to much of a risk of them grabbing the items before they are rolled on. Or being stupid and pulling out the strength belt when they are a ranger. Just not gonna risk it.

[Healsavant]

The new system doesn't promote bringing pugs, it discourages it. My guild will not be bringing any pugs on raids because we can't trust they will play by our loot rules. Which will not change, the raid items in the chest don't belong to anyone until they are rolled on by all interested parties. With puggers there's to much of a risk of them grabbing the items before they are rolled on. Or being stupid and pulling out the strength belt when they are a ranger. Just not gonna risk it.

Well if you plan on doing a 6 man guild run raid....you may get 1 item out of that completion if you are lucky.... THEN you will have to wait the mandatory 3 days and redo the preraid. So statistically if you drag along 6 puggers you double your chance on loot, and ya ya ya we all do quests for fun especially in the beginning but once we all know what goodies drop in those end chests, arent we all...and lets be honest...after a nice item for ourselves and guildies?

[Partymaker]

All this makes me laugh. A lot.

LMAO

I can, to some point, understand the frustration of some ppl that were used to only raid and loot cuz we're stuck in the high end content ad vitam eternam. But c'mon... you're all responding in a pure selfish way. (Here I'm not responding directly to the OP but to all the people whinning about "bouhouhou I'm gonna have to take casual players" *snif* )

At some point we've ALL been some freakin noob don't you think? And after some ppl were "crazy" enough to take some time to show you this and that, you've been able to go on raids by yourself since then no?

So what is the difference between these "noobs" and you when you were one too, so that the elite players think they're so highly superior to everyone else that no one can learn as fast as them? lol

Ppl are just too lazy to explain properly. They try to summarize a whole raid in one sentence and then go nuts when a "noob" do a mistake, for something he had no idea but that you took for granted he would know. That's just very lame... and preventing some players to get to this level of fun is even worst.

Remember this is a game?? Everyone is in there for the same prupose, have some fun. And everyone pays the same freakin amount of $$ for it, no matter if you consider yourself a better player than everyone else, your cash isn't worth more you know!

If any of the elite players can't, even occasionally (not everyday!!), take a few new players to show them the way it should works, I'm sorry to inform you you're a very poor addition to your community/server!

As far as I know, I doubt there's 15,000 new DDO players everyday uh... so if people were cool enough to show the other ones how to survive in the more difficult raids, you'd just have more potential allies for later runs and always less "noobs" around.

So in the end....you're all whinning for a situation you're creating yourselves!

[Healsavant]

All this makes me laugh. A lot.

LMAO

I can, to some point, understand the frustration of some ppl that were used to only raid and loot cuz we're stuck in the high end content ad vitam eternam. But c'mon... you're all responding in a pure selfish way. (Here I'm not responding directly to the OP but to all the people whinning about "bouhouhou I'm gonna have to take casual players" *snif* )

At some point we've ALL been some freakin noob don't you think? And after some ppl were "crazy" enough to take some time to show you this and that, you've been able to go on raids by yourself since then no?

So what is the difference between these "noobs" and you when you were one too, so that the elite players think they're so highly superior to everyone else that no one can learn as fast as them? lol

Ppl are just too lazy to explain properly. They try to summarize a whole raid in one sentence and then go nuts when a "noob" do a mistake, for something he had no idea but that you took for granted he would know. That's just very lame... and preventing some players to get to this level of fun is even worst.

Remember this is a game?? Everyone is in there for the same prupose, have some fun. And everyone pays the same freakin amount of $$ for it, no matter if you consider yourself a better player than everyone else, your cash isn't worth more you know!

If any of the elite players can't, even occasionally (not everyday!!), take a few new players to show them the way it should works, I'm sorry to inform you you're a very poor addition to your community/server!

As far as I know, I doubt there's 15,000 new DDO players everyday uh... so if people were cool enough to show the other ones how to survive in the more difficult raids, you'd just have more potential allies for later runs and always less "noobs" around.

So in the end....you're all whinning for a situation you're creating yourselves!

I am not saying dont spend time showing people the ropes.... But I didnt see your reply.... lets use PoP and call it a raid for a minute...we all ran that 1k times during the loot weekends...and had good and bad runs...not many parties I ran during loot weekends that were not pug...all of them in fact and had good runs and bad runs...and seen all the loot go to puggers, which is fine, when I am in a pug and see 3 vorpals out of 10 runs 8 paralizers out of 20 runs, and 3 banishers and smithers out of about 25 runs, im still ok with that, even though I have looted on this char NADA. Now sometimes I would like to improve my chances just a bit to get those uber healing gloves. I have always in every mmo I have played supported need before greed. and IF i am with my guildies, I will only have to compete with another cleric for them, this new system will automatically give the gloves I NEED TO HEAL YOU. to some warrior who just looted a vorpal and cannot use them, and ill have to buy them from that same guy off the AH. I am not seeking uber weapons just something that makes it easier for me to keep you in an upright vertical position. Is that to much to ask that I have a way to improve my odds of getting say a superior healing 7 item?

[Yabba]

The new system doesn't promote bringing pugs, it discourages it. My guild will not be bringing any pugs on raids because we can't trust they will play by our loot rules. Which will not change, the raid items in the chest don't belong to anyone until they are rolled on by all interested parties. With puggers there's to much of a risk of them grabbing the items before they are rolled on. Or being stupid and pulling out the strength belt when they are a ranger. Just not gonna risk it.

Hmmmmm. My Ranger is Str based. Why wouldn't I want the +6 str belt?

I suppose you're one of those people who say clerics don't need that belt either. Try saying that to all of those clerics with 1 lvl of fighter in their build.

Do you always pigeon hole classes like that?

[Naso24]

i have a question then. if a newer player, or simply someone who doesn't have as much time to play as others, wants to gain said experience doing a raid, how would he or she go about that? without of course getting a full party of inexperienced players and getting wiped time after time because we don't fully understand the complexities of a raid? having disdain for a lower experienced player simply because of the lack of experience is in itself abhorrent. if some people took some time and helped a few people once in a while, then that would mean there would be more players available to do the raids later on.

Ask a more experienced player to help. I always give out advice freely, and will often help out, offering up whatever class the group needs if it is like the reaver or titan, where the pre-reqs are not a pain.

[Ekental]

Yes, it's been said alot in these various same-topic threads. That's why it comes up alot. Smaller guilds have always had to get more people to raid, since day 1. This isnt anything new, nothing that the new system is forcing. It hasnt always been that these raids could be 6 manned or less. We all had to figure them out somehow.

...

To me, all of this premature talk about the new loot system reeks of selfishness. My loot, My loot. My loot. Mine.Mine.Mine. I've always been more of a need vs greed type of player, so I guess I just dont get it. I'm going to reserve my judgement of the new system until I see it. I've always believed that all the loot a player needs will come to them....eventually.

The point was that smaller guilds did not have to bring more people for raids, since with enough dedication and teamwork, they could accomplish all the raids with a minimal # of people. This system is of course changing, and seems to exclude the players who simply do not like big guilds, and would rather run with a good team they've been playing with for a while.

Loot IS the core issue here, but the arguments are not only that those who want loot won't receive as much of it, but that everyone will see a decrease in loot, period.
On a side note, "Need before Greed" is a good concept, but you simply can't count on everyone being that way. The +6 stat item you "needed" might simply drop in the hands of a greedy party member. Rather than needing to trust all 11 of your other members, why not just make sure you only need to trust one.... as in, the leader?

[Raath]

The point was that smaller guilds did not have to bring more people for raids, since with enough dedication and teamwork, they could accomplish all the raids with a minimal # of people. This system is of course changing, and seems to exclude the players who simply do not like big guilds, and would rather run with a good team they've been playing with for a while.

Loot IS the core issue here, but the arguments are not only that those who want loot won't receive as much of it, but that everyone will see a decrease in loot, period.
On a side note, "Need before Greed" is a good concept, but you simply can't count on everyone being that way. The +6 stat item you "needed" might simply drop in the hands of a greedy party member. Rather than needing to trust all 11 of your other members, why not just make sure you only need to trust one.... as in, the leader?

Of course smaller guilds had to bring more people in. Or are you saying that the first time you did the Titan you 6 manned it? I bet it was in a group of 12. Nothing new here. Those who want to run in smaller parties still can. Thats not changing at all.

As far as the +6 str belt....still nothing new. If the belt goes to someone else, its the same as if you lost a roll, or pulled a +1 mace of **** while someone else pulls a vorpal. Nothing new or changing about it.

The everyone will see less loot is a silly argument. Everyone, not just 2 people will get loot out of that chest. EVERYONE. That is not getting less loot, that is getting more. It may not be the loot you want or loot you need, but that is no different then any other chest in the game.

I hope the "elite uber players" that felt the need to brag on the fourms about soloing, duoing, whatnot....as well as the folks who felt the need to exploit the various raids, are learning a lesson from this. They are reaping the seeds they sown. Who said turbine doesnt listen to the players?

[Gimpster]

I suppose you're one of those people who say clerics don't need that belt either. Try saying that to all of those clerics with 1 lvl of fighter in their build.

Battleclerics with 1 level of fight would have a really low need for a +6 strength belt. Each time they go into battle they'll cast Divine Power anyway, which provides a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, exactly like the belt.

They'd be better off using some other belt, except possibly when fighting a beholder or dispeller monster.

[Ekental]

Of course smaller guilds had to bring more people in. Or are you saying that the first time you did the Titan you 6 manned it? I bet it was in a group of 12. Nothing new here. Those who want to run in smaller parties still can. Thats not changing at all.
I see your point, but the first time I did Titan WAS indeed a 6-man. The first reaver run in the game was a 6-man as well.

The everyone will see less loot is a silly argument. Everyone, not just 2 people will get loot out of that chest. EVERYONE. That is not getting less loot, that is getting more. It may not be the loot you want or loot you need, but that is no different then any other chest in the game.

Everyone has a chance of getting loot. Statistically, the average is the same if you have 12 people. Otherwise you have are more likely to get less than 2 pieces of loot.

[Raath]

Everyone has a chance of getting loot. Statistically, the average is the same if you have 12 people. Otherwise you have are more likely to get less than 2 pieces of loot.

No. Everyone WILL GET LOOT. EVERYONE. Every single person in the party. Not a chance of it, it will happen, unless bugged, 100% of the time. Everyone now will be rewarded with completing the raid, not just 2 people.

Everyone will have a chance to recieve raid loot. Thats is all. Everyone will have the same exact chance to get it. So what if the person who wins the belt doesnt want to give it to someone who can use it? If they want to sell it for the measly amount they will get for it, fine. You learned about an selfish player and learned not to group with them anymore. You try again in 3 days, same as it ever was.

Since when did all this raid loot suddenly get good again anyways??? As long as I can remember, there's been whining about how most of the raid loot is junk. Every raid it's been the same. Now folks act like the only way to play is to have the raid loot. Sounds huantingly like another game that wont be mentioned.

[Gimpster]

No. Everyone WILL GET LOOT. EVERYONE. Every single person in the party. Not a chance of it, it will happen, unless bugged, 100% of the time.

Could you pay even a little attention? It is painfully obvious that in the context of this discussion, "loot" means "binded named items available only in special raid quests".

That randomly generated loot mixed in there? That's too insignificant to even be mentioned.

[Raath]

Could you pay even a little attention? It is painfully obvious that in the context of this discussion, "loot" means "binded named items available only in special raid quests".

That randomly generated loot mixed in there? That's too insignificant to even be mentioned.

Coming from someone who cant pay attention long enough to read a whole post before flaming? See the second paragraph.

It's apperently important enough to those that have posted that they are happy to be recieving anything.

So how is it any different then, say, receiving the named items from PoP? It isnt. Yet i dont see people freaking out about those.

[Grunth]

The original intent on raid loot was that there was a 1/6 cance of getting one piece, that is how the raid mechanic was going to work. Then an ambitous few quickly figured out that they could do it with less and bring the odds to 50% or better. The fact that they could beat the system was not the problem, the problem is now that they could beat the set odds they were in effect being punished for bringing along a lesser player.

Yes, I said it punished because they were lowering their own loot odds by bringing someone not required, this is not how it was supposed to work.

Now the loot odds per person are back tho the intended levels and you still do not need to bring the "gimp","noobie","casual player" who may screw up your precious raid team, but if you do and you suceed you do not lower your loot chance.

Turbine also has a vested interest in not having the ubers hide from the rest of the population. The rest of the population most likley is 90% of the revenue and if they get to see the raids run sucessfully they will stay longer. The ubers may scream their "I was nerfed, I quit" post on the boards then leave. The casual just leave feeling this game just is missing something and the community is rude.


Before you attack me, I know the ubers of Stormreach have had their odds of raid lowered per run from the current system, but you are back in balance now. This is another example of the observance of some general "No plan survives contact with the enemy". When applied to to power gamers it would be "a system plotted out as balanced in the drawing room will be exploited within a month by power gamers" and as with the general on the battlefield sometimes the Devs have to change plans on the fly.

And just be nice to casual gamers we are nice people and if you let us in on the plan we will try our best not screw up.