The Intent of the New Raid Loot System

[Ekental]

Alright, as a disclaimer, let me say I do not agree with the new system at all.

It's obvious that the developers realize that the current raid system discourages taking casual players and newer players on raids.
To that end they believe, rightfully so, that the new system will encourage raid groups to have these players sign on.

I understand at least, the intent of the idea, but not the implementation.
Lets start with these assumptions:

• The "hardcore" players are able to do the raid with less people than the average "casual" player
• The "hardcore" player has nothing to do except raid and loot run.

To me, if feels like the "hardcore" players are paying $15 per month to to train newbies and casual players to raid.
Teaching people to play the game is well and good, but players should be able to choose.

Even worse, then intent of getting more casual players to raid is completely overshadowed by what I believe is going to be the sequence of events in many raids.
i.e.,
Provided the "hardcore" players don't simply leave because raids are no longer worth their time, and that's all they do in the game now...

1. Recruit some PUGs
2. Inform them to sit in the raid and /death, as they are more of a liability than help.
3. Do the raid, raise the PUGs.
4. Loot the chest
5. Optionally, verbally barrage them for loot.

I'm well aware this is a fairly worst case scenario, but it's a situation that likely will happen, and will taint the enjoyment of the game for all parties involved.

You can word the new raid system 2 ways, which has been repeated many times already.
"The new raid system rewards larger raid groups, and encourages casual player grouping"
OR
"The new raid system gives the largest raid groups the same chance to get the same # of raid items as ANY raid now, and forces players to drag "casual" players through the raid or encourages their exploitation."

[Draclaud]

I cannot add a thing.

[debo]

I agree with all your points...and to sum it up this new raid loot system stinks and is insulting.

[Aspenor]

No comments on the OP, but can we try to keep this in one thread? Two at most? This is like 7 threads today. If any valuable input is mentioned in one of the smaller threads on this topic, it will never be seen because the devs stick to one thread for their feedback, the primary thread.

[isldur]

You do realize the new loot system will becoming out with mod 5 right? I do believe it includes more high level content and a new raid, which a dev claims can't be done with fewer than 5 people. So.....
you super looters get going loot all you can. When they change the system you will get new quest and a new raid to distract you from the change

[Ekental]

Fair enough, I was hoping that we could start the flaming.. fresh, again.
I was also hoping that forum goers would discuss the reasoning behind the change and its impact, and other options, rather than getting bogged down into obscurity.

[BonesProthero]

I agree with everything you said Ekental.

[Conejo]

the use of the word "Force" or "Punishment" is ignorant.

the new loot mechanic does neither, counter to the old loot mechanic which punished larger groups in favor of smaller groups.

feel free to 2-man the raids for your e-peen dance.

[Kethir]

When a subject is 10 posts, then I think there should be one thread, with 10 posts. Any subtle differences between viewpoints can be addressed in one thread.

When a subject has 1000 posts, then I think there should be 10 threads, or more. Any subtle difference between viewpoints can be addressed in new threads.

I would say, that to some, the raid loot nerf (it is a nerf, because only in full groups will the loot be statistically the same), is a pretty big deal. To alot of people, all they do is raid. Those people don't like to hear that there is less loot.

The current system, for some, is similar to a change where pop elite now drops 2 chests instead of 3, or 1 chest. That would be a problem, no?

I fully expect that a few "powergamer" guilds to fold up after this nerf. There will no longer be a reason for them to raid.

On topic below:

I disagree. This does not make people train newbies. Why should I teach a pugger to raid, that I normally wouldn't invite otherwise, just because he increases the amount of loot that drops for all?

The pug player opens a nice miscellaneous item, like the dragon boots, the pouch of jerky (greater false life), etc. Why would he give that away? Its his loot, he keeps it.

The raid mechanic allows random people to get loot for themselves, not for me. So if I have a guild group of 6, we aren't going to invite anyone unnecessary just so they can have their loot. Thats nonsense. If they can help, thats fine, but if not, then whats the point?

All this does is reduce the amount of loot. Pure and simple. The secondary effect is that the whole "need before greed" nonsense is GONE. The whole "I need before your greed" is gone. If the sword of shadows drops for a cleric. Watch out, cleric with a 2 hander coming thru. I the dragon held drops for a fighter, +3 will saves dropped for fighter. The "traditional" system, which rewarded people who could roll on anything and punished those who only needed a single item has been abolished in favor of a pure random system. If you can use it, great, if not, give it away or trade it away. Your decision.

To me, since I don't pug raid much at all (and hardly at all successfully), it is no big deal, except the reduced loot. But to say it encourages inviting pug people into raids? thats nonsense. It is pug neutral.

[Scarsgaard]

Just so you know...

We're not taking on Noob PUGs... and I doubt that any of the other Top Guild on Ther and Xor will be doing that either. If anything we'll invite a person who is not in our Guild but is on our "Great Player List" in on a Raid but thats as far as it goes...

...new folkes without experience in the Raids will NOT be getting invites.

[Strumpoo]

I think the new loot system could be great. I don't see what the problem is.

Yes there is a chance you may get absolutely NO raid loot with a party of 6.

There is also a chace that you get 6 pieces of raid loot with 6 or even 12 pieces with a 12 man raid. So who cares. If you are raiding a lot you will get more loot this way, I think.

Not if you always raid with 2-4 people then you may be worse off.

If you are in a guild it shouldn't be too hard to get 8-12 people together.

And as far as the need before greed thing. I don't know why people are flipping out about this. If you are in a guild raid it is still VERY EASY to enforce rolls on loot. Just have everyone look into the chest together!

That way everyone can clear out the non raid loot, and you can roll on the raid loot. It isn't that hard. If you have people in your guild who don't want to co-operate then it is up to your officers and leader to enforce the guild rules.. I don't see the problem.

If you have pugs in the group, just explain the way your guild divvies up the raid loot at the end. I seriously don't think I have run into many people in this game that are so selfish that they won't agree to a guild's raid loot procedures.

[jaitee]

You do realize the new loot system will becoming out with mod 5 right? I do believe it includes more high level content and a new raid, which a dev claims can't be done with fewer than 5 people. So.....
you super looters get going loot all you can. When they change the system you will get new quest and a new raid to distract you from the change

he never said "CANT"

the terms he used with me, was it would be hard

[Ekental]

the use of the word "Force" or "Punishment" is ignorant.

the new loot mechanic does neither, counter to the old loot mechanic which punished larger groups in favor of smaller groups.

feel free to 2-man the raids for your e-peen dance.

This comes up quite a bit. As always, there's two sides to this.
While there might be 2-man raids, it's not always necessarily done to show everyone how great a player the raiders in question are.
Many of the people who do small group raids don't say anything about it... or even post of the forums. They simply prefer small groups, and the small guild atmosphere.
Why should they be penalized for their preference in playstyle? I agree many people on the forums who talk about their 2-man raids and how wonderful and skilled they are might have "e-peen" issues, but there are plenty of people who do raids with minimal groups for reasons completely different than bragging. Making a sweeping generalization about those player types is fairly baseless.

"The Old System penalizes large groups"
This is a valid argument, certainly larger groups were discouraged. Arguably, however, smaller groups completed the raids with more difficulty than larger ones. It should also be noted that the old system does not actually "penalize" larger groups, as they are getting the same amount of loot with a maximum size party as the new system, which comparitively, penalizes smaller groups. Everything here is relative.

[Aliandro]

I think the new loot system could be great. I don't see what the problem is.

Yes there is a chance you may get absolutely NO raid loot with a party of 6.

There is also a chace that you get 6 pieces of raid loot with 6 or even 12 pieces with a 12 man raid. So who cares. If you are raiding a lot you will get more loot this way, I think.

Not if you always raid with 2-4 people then you may be worse off.

If you are in a guild it shouldn't be too hard to get 8-12 people together.

And as far as the need before greed thing. I don't know why people are flipping out about this. If you are in a guild raid it is still VERY EASY to enforce rolls on loot. Just have everyone look into the chest together!

That way everyone can clear out the non raid loot, and you can roll on the raid loot. It isn't that hard. If you have people in your guild who don't want to co-operate then it is up to your officers and leader to enforce the guild rules.. I don't see the problem.

If you have pugs in the group, just explain the way your guild divvies up the raid loot at the end. I seriously don't think I have run into many people in this game that are so selfish that they won't agree to a guild's raid loot procedures.

There are two major problems with this idea. one is that the statistical chance of getting no items in a 6 man group is 1/3 of the time. everyone getting an item is about 1 in 46000. which is a little disproportionate. no matter what, it means that in a 6 man raid the group will get half the amout of items compared to before statistically.


As for whether this promotes pugging raids. it will. everyone wants to be able to get about as many items as they were getting before, but instead of relying on a leader of the party to divy up the items your relying on people you may not know so well. hmmm what could happen..... a guild explains to a person how their guild works and when they get to the raid chest they pull a named item that doesnt work for their class. they say screw you guys i pulled it i dont care what your guild thinks. tears running down thier eyes everyone from the guild is dissapointed by another nerf.

I know, I know, what people are saying, "then only invite people you trust," But to fill up a 12 man raid is harder now more then ever.. even with the merge impending, i doubt i will get a crucible run together with people i believe to be competant let alone a full raid. the bottem line. the new raid loot system is a nerf it will make power gamers leave.. It almost seems intentional on how to get people to leave. if its broke fix it, but not with a giant slegdehammer saying "ill fix you good."

[Raath]

Just so you know...

We're not taking on Noob PUGs... and I doubt that any of the other Top Guild on Ther and Xor will be doing that either. If anything we'll invite a person who is not in our Guild but is on our "Great Player List" in on a Raid but thats as far as it goes...

...new folkes without experience in the Raids will NOT be getting invites.

Blows my mind. The population is evaporating, and instead of helping out new players (they are few and far between in case you havent noticed), we still get attitudes like this.

Very sad.

[hannika]

Blows my mind. The population is evaporating, and instead of helping out new players (they are few and far between in case you havent noticed), we still get attitudes like this.

Very sad.

not all powergamers are like that though. i'm happy to help teach new ppl raids/quests... just not all the time, cuz it's not fun.

[Mercules]

This comes up quite a bit. As always, there's two sides to this.
While there might be 2-man raids, it's not always necessarily done to show everyone how great a player the raiders in question are.
Many of the people who do small group raids don't say anything about it... or even post of the forums. They simply prefer small groups, and the small guild atmosphere.
Why should they be penalized for their preference in playstyle?

They are not being penalized for playing in small groups. They are not being rewarded for doing so either. Show another part of the game that gives you greater rewards for going in with 1,2, or 3 people instead of more people? Only the Raid Loot does that, the rest of the game does not reward you for taking two people in.

That being said I prefer smaller groups of 2-4 instead of a full 6. I don't cry for a reward for doing so on other quests just because Raid Loot mechanics currently do reward you for that.

[Knightrose]

Some of these complaints to the new raid loot system are bordering hilarious.

"Oh noes I might need more friends to finish!"

"Oh noes I have a better chance of actually getting some raid loot!"

"Oh noes I can't farm for my favorite item!"

"Oh noes I can't exploit the raid to bring in my alts!"

Seriously.

[Ekental]

Blows my mind. The population is evaporating, and instead of helping out new players (they are few and far between in case you havent noticed), we still get attitudes like this.

Very sad.

Ok... no one said they didn't want to help out new players. This ALSO comes up a lot. The idea that going against this system means going against helping new players has no merit. The new system forces players, especially those belonging to small guilds, to get more people for a raid in order to get the same # of items as any group gets now. In essence, people should not be forced to "help" new characters. I'm sure that's not the type of "help" anyone appreciates.

Raids are doable once /3 days. I'd happily take a 1/6 chance of loot if they let me raid as many times as I wanted. Comparing it to a normal quest isn't quite valid.

As noted by many people as well, you do NOT have the same chance of getting raid loot as you do now. You have the same chance, with a 12 person party.

[Gol]

Some of these complaints to the new raid loot system are bordering hilarious.
"Oh noes I have a better chance of actually getting some raid loot!"
Seriously.

2 comments.
1) Mathematically and completely WRONG.
2) The converse (aka, the correct statement) is the #1 gripe by a large, large, margin.