Sorc Guide Reposted pt 1

[Aspenor]

Thanks for fishing this one out of cache, Wiglin. I guess I wasn't thorough enough:

***UNDER CONSTRUCTION***
***UNDER CONSTRUCTION***
**DANGER - MEN AT WORK**



Aspenor's Guide to Rolling and Building a Sorceror

First of all, you have to know what you want from your sorceror. Do you want to be a crowd control master? Do you want to be an instant-death killing machine? Or maybe you prefer direct damage/nuking....All of these are viable options. Each type will have different feats, spells, and different enhancement focus.

Firstly, lets start with stats. DDO has peculiar rules regarding caster classes, which differ greatly from PnP. Firstly, and most notably, IMHO at end-game the only stats that matter are your primary casting stat (Charisma, in the case of sorcerors), and your constitution score (governs your hit points). Keep in mind that sorcerors only get 2 skill points + INT modifier per level. Concentration is of utmost importance, because you want your spells to go off when you cast them, you don't want some monster hitting you to stop it. UMD is a common favorite, and a high level sorceror can use raise dead scrolls if he/she is properly equipped. Maxxing both these skills will take ALL your base skill points.

It is thus my recommendation to start all sorcerors with enough intelligence to gain 3 skill points per level. My three skills I chose were concentration, UMD, and jump. Jump is for evasive maneuvering, and is incredibly useful for avoiding damage. YOU WILL NOT want to stand still when mobs attack you.
PS RE: SKILLS--You may choose to take diplomacy instead of jump. Diplomacy ROCKS for a sorceror, and I will get around to explaining that later.

My recommended Starting stats, drow sorceror
STR-8
DEX-10
CON-14
INT-12
WIS-8
CHA-20

Skill points spent AT EVERY LEVEL in UMD, jump, and concentration. (PS-OR DIPLOMACY INSTEAD OF JUMP)

Feats (in Order): (Drow)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower

Feats (in Order): (Human)
Maximize
Extend
Heighten
Spell focus: Enchantment
Empower
Spell Penetration


These spell choices are those of the "Generalist," often enchantment-based sorceror.

Spell choices: 1st level
Charm Person, Niacs
At first level you will want to be able to short-man quests, and you will want to be able to take control of the baddies to fight for you. Charm Person works on kobolds and hobgoblins, the common enemies in the early game. Niacs is for damage output. It is the highest damage spell for first level available, and it works well on early mobs, especially casters. A sorceror should remember melee mobs have low will, and caster mobs have low dex, so charm the fighting types
and kill the caster types.

Spell Choice: 2nd level
Hypnotism
Will save spell, useful for making groups of mobs stand still. A sorceror can spam cast 2-3 hypnotisms and render entire crowds immobile. I recommend taking this at 2nd level to help control crowds.
Alternative: Burning hands
Burning hands is a good low level damage spell for groups of monsters, and taking burning hands at second level also allows the sorceror to be more effective against undead, since ice does not work on skeletons.

Spell Choice: 3rd Level
Burning Hands
See above, alternative spell is hypnotism.

Spell Choice: 4th level
Web or Resist Energy
Web is the fundamental crowd control spell in the game. Learn it, use it, and master it. Being able to use this spell effectively will help you use others later down the line. Resist energy is a MUST HAVE for a sorceror. Taking this spell early also makes your sorceror more able to short-man quests for quicker experience. You can make due with your first level spells for CC and damage.

Spell Choice: 5th Level
Web or Resist Energy
Whichever one is not chosen at 4th, take it at 5th.

Spell Chice: 6th Level
Haste
Everybody loves haste. You know you can't live without it. At low levels there is nothing like hasting a fighter.

Now's when it gets hairy. Around 6th level, you no longer need some early spells, and you are in need of different spells for the quests you are in.
For example, Stormcleave is a common 6-8 experience quest, and the giant at the end canot be harmed by Niac's. However, crowd control is necessary for this quest, and it would be awful tough to give up one of your CC spells. At 6th level I recommend dropping burning hands for magic missle, simply for use in killing the giant. If you feel you can count
on your fighters to do this, this change may not be necessary.
Spell Swap- Burning Hands for Magic Missile

Spell Choice: 7th Level
2nd Level - Blur
3rd Level - Fireball
Blur will be your first defensive buff. KEEP YOURSELF BLURRED. You have no AC. Damage avoidance is your only way to survive. Fireball replaces burning hands as your AoE killer.

Recommended spell swap at 7th level:
Niac's for Jump
Niacs is no longer your primary killing spell. Fireball is a reflex save, and performs just as well as Niacs. Jump is necessary for evasive maneuvering.
Jump is a must-have for a 14th level caster.

Spell Choice: 8th level
8th level spell selection is very subjective. It depends on your build. Are you an instant-death build? You want PK. Are you a direct damage build? You want firewall. Are you a charm build? Charm monster.
My chosen spell at this level is PK. It generates very little aggro, and is a useful for a quick-kill on a threatening mob.

Spell Choices: 9th level
W))T!! We get 3 spells this level!
2nd Level - Scorching Ray
3rd Level - Displacement
4th Level - Wall of Fire
Displacement is a MUST HAVE for a sorceror. 50% miss chance will save your tail ALOT. Use this spell, and use it often when you get aggro.
Scorching ray - staple high level damage spell. At low levels it is less useful, due to 1 ray only. It now has 2.
Wall of Fire - Staple damage spell. Learn to love it. You'll be jumping around in it like a jackrabbit on crack.

Spell Choices: 10th level
5th level - Hold Monster
Hold Monster is your new Melee destruction spell. Being attacked by a fighter type mob? HOLD THEM. Will save spell.

Recommended spell swap:
Hypnotism for Nightshield
With your casting speed on hold monster, hypnotism is not necessary. Use web for group control, if necessary. More mobs cast magic missles and force missiles at high levels, including the Stormreaver. Magic missles are unavoidable damage, and this simple spell lasts for 1min/level, and absorbs all missile effects. It also gives resistance bonus to saves.

Spell Choices: 11th Level
3rd Level - Protection from energy
4th Level - Stoneskin
5th Level - Cone of Cold
I R SQUISSHEEEE
Displacement and stoneskin is the BEST armor class in the game. Use it, love it. Live it.
Protection from energy may seem like it is unnecessary, but you won't think so when you get hit with 100 damage lightning and 180 damage polar rays. Damage mitigation is your friend. Cone of Cold is your new burning hands, except much better. Especially useful on fire monsters (14th level crits up to 2000-ish).

Spell choices: 12th level
6th Level - Flesh to Stone
This spell is your new caster-stopper. It is a fort save, and clerics/caster types have low con. Use it, and love it. Spam it, if you must.

Spell Choices: 13th Level
4th Level-Enervation
5th level-Dominate Person
6th Level-Greater Heroism
Enervation is your debuff spell. Hit tough mobs with an enervation (it has no save) and then PK to your heart's content.
Dominate Person is your new charm person. Many HIGH level mobs are PEOPLE, including Gnolls, Dwarfs, Elves, Humans, and Goblins. GH-you don't want to be casting GH from scrolls, unless you're rolling in cash. Plus, you can extend the buff from your mana.

Possible Spell Swap, depending on preference
You may wish to keep web, but I find myself with no shortage of spells to throw with this build. I swap web for false life, free temp. hit points from mana.

Spell Choice: 14th Level
7th - Otto's Dancing Sphere
The staple high level crowd control spell. This spell works on monsters, animals, people, demons, everything except undead and vermin. This is your new "crowd" control.

*Comments on SF: Enchant & Playing sorcerors*
Sorcerors have an uncanny ability to run through quests using nothing but charms and damage when needed. The SF: Enchantment feat helps each charm to stick, so that less recasting is necessary. I would explain further why I feel it is so necessary for charms to work well, but I don't want my playstyle nerfed.

[amysrevenge]

Yay!

And I only had to gain one level without the helpful guide.

Luckily, since it was level 6, I could remember Haste and Extend Spell.

[Varis]

what's with all the mental toughness and improved mental toughness hate?

[Aspenor]

what's with all the mental toughness and improved mental toughness hate?

When you are a sorceror with approximately 1600 spell points, spending a feat on another 70 spell points (not even 2 casts of a 7th level spell) is pointless.

[Borror0]

When you are a sorceror with approximately 1600 spell points, spending a feat on another 70 spell points (not even 2 casts of a 7th level spell) is pointless.

My point on this is more like:

A wizard got 3 bonus metamagic feat so he can afford MT and I:MT. Sorcerer got more spell point and less feats. So he got to choose his priority. Other feats , like Spell Focuses, are more mana efficient than MT or I:MT. Why, because casting the same level 7 spell twice cost more than MT could give you, thus Sepll Focus is taken and MT is left alone playing in his sandbox.

[Aspenor]

My point on this is more like:

A wizard got 3 bonus metamagic feat so he can afford MT and I:MT. Sorcerer got more spell point and less feats. So he got to choose his priority. Other feats , like Spell Focuses, are more mana efficient than MT or I:MT. Why, because casting the same level 7 spell twice cost more than MT could give you, thus Sepll Focus is taken and MT is left alone playing in his sandbox.

Basically the same argument with better wording.

The marginal benefit from a spell focus or other metamagic is much greater than the SP provided by mental toughness feats.

[Varis]

perhaps if you are a crowd control junkie...

what about nuke spec sorcs? My black dragon robe is doing just fine with focus+ greater focus

I don't know about you, but my sorc has 1881 mana, not 1600 and I need every scrap of it.

extend? convenience! If you need to extend a spell you are taking too long.
enlarge? again convenience... it does absolutly NOTHING to improve the spell you cast.

heighten, empower, maximise... THERE is an obvious change, not just fluff.

If you are a finger junky or hold monster anything that moves then I can understand you taking focus feats but that is NOT a general build.

That is a specialized build. (hell it's even in the feat description: spell "FOCUS")

so a GENERAL build has empower, maximise, heighen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness.




also.. if 70 mana is not a lot for you... why the hell do you bother with the mana enhancements, power or wizardry items?

That's like a 2hander barbarian thinking 200 hp's is enough or a tank thinking 40 AC will cut it....


A sorcerer has to worry about TWO things to be effective and that's MANA and CHARISMA. Sacrificing a bit on either can have a good reason but it is certainly moving away from a basic build.

[Aspenor]

perhaps if you are a crowd control junkie...

what about nuke spec sorcs? My black dragon robe is doing just fine with focus+ greater focus

I don't know about you, but my sorc has 1881 mana, not 1600 and I need every scrap of it.

extend? convenience! If you need to extend a spell you are taking too long.
enlarge? again convenience... it does absolutly NOTHING to improve the spell you cast.

heighten, empower, maximise... THERE is an obvious change, not just fluff.

If you are a finger junky or hold monster anything that moves then I can understand you taking focus feats but that is NOT a general build.

That is a specialized build. (hell it's even in the feat description: spell "FOCUS")

so a GENERAL build has empower, maximise, heighen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness.




also.. if 70 mana is not a lot for you... why the hell do you bother with the mana enhancements, power or wizardry items?

That's like a 2hander barbarian thinking 200 hp's is enough or a tank thinking 40 AC will cut it....


A sorcerer has to worry about TWO things to be effective and that's MANA and CHARISMA. Sacrificing a bit on either can have a good reason but it is certainly moving away from a basic build.

1600 mana isn't taking into account items, which I purposely did because I don't want to get new players making unrealistic expectations of themselves.

I am sorry but mental toughness is a complete waste on a sorceror. 70 spell points is nothing to you. Feats can be spent in more useful places.

Extend is for my convenience, yes. I like extended displacement and haste, so kill me. It's more useful than a paltry 70 spell points.

You apparently didn't read the last copy of this thread, where I had to point out to people time and time again that this thread is here to help new caster-players, not as advice to people who already play them.

Your analogy in closing is a straw man fallacy (thanks Merc) and has nothing to do with the issue in question.

What about a nuking sorc? If you didn't know, this is part 1 man. I have already written part 2 (the instant kill sorc) and am working on part 3 (the nuker).

I am not going to even bother making arguments about the above build any longer, because I am sick of dealing with having to explain what really matters to a sorceror.

[Varis]

1600 mana isn't taking into account items, which I purposely did because I don't want to get new players making unrealistic expectations of themselves.

I am sorry but mental toughness is a complete waste on a sorceror. 70 spell points is nothing to you. Feats can be spent in more useful places.

Extend is for my convenience, yes. I like extended displacement and haste, so kill me. It's more useful than a paltry 70 spell points.

You apparently didn't read the last copy of this thread, where I had to point out to people time and time again that this thread is here to help new caster-players, not as advice to people who already play them.

Your analogy in closing is a straw man fallacy (thanks Merc) and has nothing to do with the issue in question.

What about a nuking sorc? If you didn't know, this is part 1 man. I have already written part 2 (the instant kill sorc) and am working on part 3 (the nuker).

I am not going to even bother making arguments about the above build any longer, because I am sick of dealing with having to explain what really matters to a sorceror.

well if you are sick of making arguments about your build then just call this "Aspenors Sorc builds and tips" and have the thread locked.

If you think you represent all sorcerers on DDO making this guide and don't need input or dare I say it... criticism, then you are an arrogant fool.

It does not matter if you played your sorcerer before alpha and play every waking hour, others have a good grasp on the concept and playstyle as well.
In fact many here also have a very good idea about 3.5 and so can make some pretty educated guesses on what will be viable in the future and what is a neat trick for 14th level.

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

[Aspenor]

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

Do you even know the metamagic changes? Spells are all going to be cheaper.

[Aspenor]

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

and if you take mental toughness as your level 15 and level 18 feats, you gain the same mana as you do from taking them at levels 1 and 3. You do not need to worry about mana at this point in the game, so add versatility and spell-hitting power. If you can't see the logic behind that, I can't help you.

I have laughed at every person that claims all that matters to a sorceror is charisma level and number of spell points. This is completely wrong.

[Borror0]

well if you are sick of making arguments about your build then just call this "Aspenors Sorc builds and tips" and have the thread locked.

If you think you represent all sorcerers on DDO making this guide and don't need input or dare I say it... criticism, then you are an arrogant fool.

It does not matter if you played your sorcerer before alpha and play every waking hour, others have a good grasp on the concept and playstyle as well.
In fact many here also have a very good idea about 3.5 and so can make some pretty educated guesses on what will be viable in the future and what is a neat trick for 14th level.

mental toughness AND improved mental toughness add quite a bit of mana at 14th and will add a ton more by the time we get to 20th level. Well worth the mana points especially in light of the metamagic changes.

Put altogether, MT and I:MT give 150 SP. Now, how often do mobs save against your Empowered+Maximized+Fireball that costs 80 SP? Each time he saves, you loose 40 SP! So, if a mob saves four times, you lost the benefit of MT AND I:MT. Now, say you take SF:Evocation and GSF:Evocation, that might make you more mana efficient, don't ya think?

If you're playing with lv 7 spells, that's only two spells you have to miss to waste more than 150 SP! Now, don't go and tell me mobs never save against your spells!

[Aspenor]

A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.

[Aspenor]

If you're playing with lv 7 spells, that's only two spells you have to miss to waste more than 150 SP! Now, don't go and tell me mobs never save against your spells!

One time a mob saved on my spells, I think he was a red named.

[DelScorcho]

Yay, the guide is back. I can resume leveling my sorc!

[Borror0]

One time a mob saved on my spells, I think he was a red named.

Was not refering to you... -_-

[Varis]

A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.


and no, I don't have a problem with landing spells. The DC is 30 with a 34 cha, heighten and a +1 focus item. Not the best but close enough. The extra 5% chance to land a spell OF A CERTAIN SCHOOL does NOT make such a difference.

[Aspenor]

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.


and no, I don't have a problem with landing spells. The DC is 30 with a 34 cha, heighten and a +1 focus item. Not the best but close enough. The extra 5% chance to land a spell OF A CERTAIN SCHOOL does NOT make such a difference.

I fail to see your point. This is obvious to anybody, and doesn't back up your previous posts in any way.

[amysrevenge]

As far as efficiency goes, depending on the saves of the mobs MT/IMT or SF/GSF could be nore efficient.

Let's have two sorcs, S1 with SF/GSF, and S2 with MT/IMT.

Let's say that you have 1700 SPs (S1), or 1850 (S2). The difference in mana is 8.8%.


Further, let's imagine a couple of scenarios (the real scenario is likely different from these extremes).

In the first case, average mobs save against your spells on a roll of 19+ (S1) or 17+ (S2). Thus, 90% of all spells succeed for S1, and 80% of all spells succeed for S2. This means that S2 has to cast 9/8 as many spells to have the same number of successes -> 12.5% more mana spent. S1 has the advantage, as S2 only has 8.8% more mana.

In the second case, average mobs save against your spells on a roll of 5+ (S1) or 3+ (S2). thus, 20% of all spells succeed for S1, and 10% succeed for S2. S2 has to cast 2/1 as many spells -> 100% more mana. S1 has a HUGE advantage.

The only time that S2 has an advantage are cases when: a) mobs need a 20 to save anyway (in which case raising the DC even higher has no benefit) or b) you are casting spells with no saving throw (such as scorching ray or wall of fire) or c) mobs have SR (in which case both choices will fail/succeed just as often and S2's ability to cast more spells wins out).

(Let me know if I am missing anything here)

Mike

[Varis]

A proper spell focus feat in your spell type of choice will increase your mana efficiency beyond the benefit of mental toughness. You have my personal guarantee on that.

so I said...

yes... for that school... so if you SF: enchantment... what about ALL the other schools?

is it gonna help me with nuking?
is it gonna help me with finger of death?

the benefit is situational while mana is universal.



I don't understand how this is so hard to understand...