MC Bards screwed?

[dormetheus]

Well, with the new metamagic system coming in, level 1 and 2 spells will cost MORE to extend.

What do you all think?

Hamburger. It's neither ham, nor is it from Hamburg. Discuss!

[EinarMal]

Well, with the new metamagic system coming in, level 1 and 2 spells will cost MORE to extend.

What do you all think?

Hamburger. It's neither ham, nor is it from Hamburg. Discuss!

I would say minimal impact. Level 1 spells don't really need extended, and the only level 2 spell that REALLY needs extended with 12 or so Bard levels is Rage.

Greater heroism would cost less to extend and haste/displacement which are the main two that get extended cost the same.

I guess focusing chant might be the biggest loss, but that is hardly required to cast.

[dormetheus]

I would say minimal impact. Level 1 spells don't really need extended, and the only level 2 spell that REALLY needs extended with 12 or so Bard levels is Rage.

Greater heroism would cost less to extend and haste/displacement which are the main two that get extended cost the same.

I guess focusing chant might be the biggest loss, but that is hardly required to cast.

I understand, but GH isn't a multiclass spell (isn't it level 14 bard?).

I guess rage, blur, heroism, and focusing chant are the only ones being effected by this?

[EinarMal]

I understand, but GH isn't a multiclass spell (isn't it level 14 bard?).

I guess rage, blur, heroism, and focusing chant are the only ones being effected by this?

It is level 13 for GH, 13/1 so possible for some builds. Yes and if you have 10+ levels of Bard blur and heroism would last 10 minutes unextended which is probably long enough between most shrines.

Really rage and focusing chant are the ones you would want to extend that will increase in cost. For focusing chant there is now no benefit to extend as you might as well cast it two times.

[Schmackdown]

For my melee build it really boils down to having to police Extend, something I'd really rather not have to do. It'll probably just wind up being another step in the post-shrine buff process, though, and as EM says a lot of stuff doesn't need to be extended anyway. Flipping Extend on at the right time in the sequence and then leaving it on might actually wind up saving me SP between shrines.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

For my melee build it really boils down to having to police Extend, something I'd really rather not have to do. It'll probably just wind up being another step in the post-shrine buff process, though, and as EM says a lot of stuff doesn't need to be extended anyway. Flipping Extend on at the right time in the sequence and then leaving it on might actually wind up saving me SP between shrines.

That's what I do with my Dwarven Battle Bard 13 Bard/1 Fighter. He only has 560 spell points for buffs, so I need to be careful with Extend.

I set up a buff hotbar and just move across it clicking the spells, I put Extend in the progression right before the short duration spells so I turn it on at the right moment, it's also at the end so it gets turned back off when the buffing is done. Then it's mini-displacements and mini-hastes til the next shrine.

Works for me.

My progression is:

- Good Hope (can't afford GH on everyone, this'll do AND give them 2 more damage that Greater Heroism WON'T , I will give Greater Heroism to rogues tho if they want it)
- Greater Heroism
- Blur
- Freedom of Movement
- Inspire Greatness song (6 minutes)
- Inspire Heroism song
- Extend on
- Rage
- Displacement
- Haste
- Focussing Chant
- Extend off

It actually goes across two bars, but oh well...

If there is a short distance to a shrine, I sometimes hand out buffs to other party members or if there is specifically something they need (i.e. Freedom of Movement in Crucible). But usually the remaining SP after the initial buff are spent on haste and displacement, this build can't afford to give out too many buffs. As for the fighters, I'm sorry but Good Hope, uber songs and blur is plenty for them to kill things in short order.

Now my other Bard with almost 1000 SP has an absolute HOOT buffing the party! Then she just follows them around spot healing, popping baddies with the bow, throwing the odd disco ball, etc.. pretty much just tagging along for the ride.

[Greenstone]

Hamburger. It's neither ham, nor is it from Hamburg. Discuss!

The word "Hamburger" comes from Hamburg, Germany; the inhabitants of this city are also known as "Pork Eaters" in German. In Germany, local traditional snacks are often named after the place of origin, like the Frankfurter (also known as a hotdog), the Berliner (a jam doughnut) or Thüringer (Bratwurst). In Hamburg it was common to put a piece of roast pork into a roll, called Rundstück warm, although this is missing the "essence" of the modern hamburger, which is ground meat. However, another theory states that in Hamburg, meatscraps similar to modern ground beef were served on a Brötchen, a round bun-shaped piece of bread. It is said that German immigrants then took the Hamburger to the United States.

[sigtrent]

My Battle Bard character doesn't even have extend. He mostly self buffs and ultimately extend just woudln't make a big impact in his buffing routine or sp use. Generaly if I run down my spell pool its because I decided to self heal.

3 minute buffs are just fine so long as I don't cast and then end up standing around while it counts down. But I also don't cast every buff in the book for every fight. focusing chant is handy but there is no need for me to keep it on for an entire quest, just not worth it. But for a big fight, great stuff.

[hazur]

Greetings,

I think the solution to this problem is to stop making dwarf battle bards, or any bards that start with 14 charisma. It is perfectly feasible to start with more charisma, and also pick up feats like mental toughness to bring up that spell point pool. My bard sits near 1000 SP and can still fight etc. I hear most of these dwarves are sitting around 500 SP...Sounds like its going to be a lot of buff, exit quest to refill SP, come back in type of stuff. Also, who the hell wants to group with a bard who just buffs themselves?

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

I think the solution to this problem is to stop making dwarf battle bards, or any bards that start with 14 charisma. It is perfectly feasible to start with more charisma, and also pick up feats like mental toughness to bring up that spell point pool. My bard sits near 1000 SP and can still fight etc. I hear most of these dwarves are sitting around 500 SP...Sounds like its going to be a lot of buff, exit quest to refill SP, come back in type of stuff. Also, who the hell wants to group with a bard who just buffs themselves?

Regards,
Booser

Because perhaps not everyone wants to play exactly like you? You are thinking of this entirely wrong. If you want to be an ok CC caster/fighter then pure Bard is fine. If you want to fight as your main role, but still buff/haste the group with songs and extended haste a battle Bard is great (Dwarfs are great because they are tough and have great racial enhancements). They just are not filling the same role in the group as a traditional CC Bard.

They still provide though for the group, song buffs, fascinate, spot healing, and fight taking one of the front line roles. Not to mention constant hasting for the group.

[hazur]

Greetings,

Why play a bard then if you don't want to be a bard? Dwarves do not a super bard make. Just because they get such a high HP bonus does not mean they make amazing bards. Also, this thread was about people worried about a lack of SP to buff with. I simply offered solutions that would not only solve that problem, but others with the current "battle bards".

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

Why play a bard then if you don't want to be a bard?
Booser

Well I guess we just disagree on what a Bard is.

[hazur]

Greetings,

And what is it you think a bard is? Personally I see them as melee/caster/healers, the ultimate versatility class. I think you see them as buffers.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

And what is it you think a bard is? Personally I see them as melee/caster/healers, the ultimate versatility class. I think you see them as buffers.

Regards,
Booser

All Bards can buff very well as long as you take a decent number of Bard levels. Healing honestly unless you have a high UMD and don't mind using a lot of heal scrolls is not as viable as it once was for a Bard in a lot of cases as hit points are getting too high for the cure line to keep up with.

Really to me what it comes down to is casting/fighting which one do you want to do. You have three options, try to do both as you seem to advocate which makes you "ok" at CC casting and "ok" at fighting if you stay pure Bard. There just are not enough feats to do both well and unless you take a weapon prof your choice there is limited. The other option is to focus on CC, or you can focus on fighting. You seem to be ok with all the options but the "focus on fighting" part and I do not agree with that.

[hazur]

Greetings,

I like fighting focused bards, but people go overboard and miss out on a lot of good bard abilities for some trivial fighting power. My current bard, who is not even completely healing spec'd, heals as well as most clerics I group with. His CSW fires for 90+, usually over 100 and crits often. This is with empower healing. With spellsong trance, that is 27 SP for an average of 100+ heal. Yes it is no HEAL spell, but when used along with scrolls, yes, bards can heal VERY WELL. You can fight well and CC well at the same time. There have been many many builds designed to do this. Mine is a good example and so is Rameses' bard Nikke. Both have done high elite content and survived very well CCing in combat. Feats are of little importance to combat prowess when you factor in all of the maxed buffs. The only feat you really need for a true full fledged combat bard is an Improved Critical feat.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

I like fighting focused bards, but people go overboard and miss out on a lot of good bard abilities for some trivial fighting power. My current bard, who is not even completely healing spec'd, heals as well as most clerics I group with. His CSW fires for 90+, usually over 100 and crits often. This is with empower healing. With spellsong trance, that is 27 SP for an average of 100+ heal. Yes it is no HEAL spell, but when used along with scrolls, yes, bards can heal VERY WELL. You can fight well and CC well at the same time. There have been many many builds designed to do this. Mine is a good example and so is Rameses' bard Nikke. Both have done high elite content and survived very well CCing in combat. Feats are of little importance to combat prowess when you factor in all of the maxed buffs. The only feat you really need for a true full fledged combat bard is an Improved Critical feat.

Regards,
Booser

So you take empower healing and healing enhancements, are a CC caster and also fight very well. That is pretty amazing for a pure Bard with 5 feats and a limited amount of enhancement points.

Do you use a 1 handed weapon? Comparing that to a DPS Bard build is crazy you will not even come close at all to a real DPS character.

You cannot be good at everything at the same time. You keep saying "marginal" gains in DPS when it is far more than that. If you are killing mobs 2x faster that makes a huge difference in damage taken to the group and the overall power of the group.

[hazur]

Greetings,

Seeing as everything my groups fight is always charmed/dancing/fascinated/held, what difference does it make what damage I do? Also, no, my bard is not a DPSer, he uses one handers and staves for utility purposes (mainly paralyzing). However, he does deal a significant amount of damage due to strength mod and buffs. I did not design my bard to be an all out damage dealing machine. But, I could easily create a build who is more focused on DPS with very small changes (one feat here, couple enhancements there, maybe add a fighter level) without diluting the class completely. Adding a fighter level gives you access to solid two-handers which do considerable damage. A 10 Bard/3 Rogue/1 Fighter is not a real DPS character fyi.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

Seeing as everything my groups fight is always charmed/dancing/fascinated/held, what difference does it make what damage I do? Also, no, my bard is not a DPSer, he uses one handers and staves for utility purposes (mainly paralyzing). However, he does deal a significant amount of damage due to strength mod and buffs. I did not design my bard to be an all out damage dealing machine. But, I could easily create a build who is more focused on DPS with very small changes (one feat here, couple enhancements there, maybe add a fighter level) without diluting the class completely. Adding a fighter level gives you access to solid two-handers which do considerable damage. A 10 Bard/3 Rogue/1 Fighter is not a real DPS character fyi.

Regards,
Booser

Consider at rogue three with a backstabbing weapon you are doing an extra 2d6 + 7 per swing with GTWF (you have to wait until 15 or go Bard 8/Rogue 4/Fighter 1 at the current cap. That is +14 damage or the equivalent of a +28 to strength.

Two handed Bard with 26 strength SOS and bloodstone Bard 13/Fighter 1

To Hit:
BAB 10
Str 8
Weapon 5
Song 7
Haste 1
PA -5
+31 (26 PA)

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 12
Song 5
PA 10
+32

Damage Per Second:
SOS = 2d6 + 32 = 39 (117+18 Bloodstone Critical) = (39*0.65+135*0.3)*(88/60)
Total: 96.5

TWF full out battle bard with 30 strength

To Hit:
BAB 10
Racial 2
Str 10
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
+30

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 10
Song 7
PA 5
Racial 2
+29 (24 Offhand)

Weapons:
+5 Holy Rapier/Treason

Rapier = 1d6 + 29 +2d6(Holy) +2d6(Sneak) + 9(Sneak Bonus) = 32.5 + 23 (65 + 23 Critical) = 91.63
Shortsword = 1d6 + 24 +2d6(Sneak) +9(Sneak Bonus) = 27.5 + 16 (55 + 16 Critical) = 53.71
Total: 145.34

So when sneak attacking that is ~50% more damage than the SOS with 3 levels of rogue as a Bard. I admit you have to wait until level 15 if you go with Bard 10/Rogue 3/Fighter 1. Without that it comes to something like ~116 with ITWF.

[hazur]

Greetings,

50% more damage (on average) is still not worth taking all those feats and enhancements. Also, a normal bard with a two hander could just hold things and critical the **** out of them, killing them quite a bit faster than a TWF with no spell DC could...

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

50% more damage (on average) is still not worth taking all those feats and enhancements. Also, a normal bard with a two hander could just hold things and critical the **** out of them, killing them quite a bit faster than a TWF with no spell DC could...

Regards,
Booser

It is to me... and hold monster is no substitute for DPS. If you are buffing/healing and casting other things how many can you hold between shrines ~10 counting re-casts from saves? That is always what weak DPS Bards claim as the counter arguement but you cannot cast it often enough to make up the difference.