Hmmmmm, don't know if I like the new raid mechanic:

[CSFurious]

i used to be a capitalist in college then i went into the real world and slowly became a socialist

so, it is not a gigantic leap for me to want social equality in DDO as same will likely be impossible in the real world

I recommend a thorough reading of "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.

[Aspenor]

i used to be a capitalist in college then i went into the real world and slowly became a socialist

so, it is not a gigantic leap for me to want social equality in DDO as same will likely be impossible in the real world

Socialism is an atrocious idea. That is all.

[Harbinder]

I'm no mathemetician, but the percentages for loot drops look horrible on paper.

6 man raids see 1 raid item on average?
12 man raids see 2 raid items on average?

3 man raids have a 50% chance 1 item will drop...or is that wrong?

[Kistilan]

Happy now?

Yep that's what I wanted. I see the formula and I executed it. I just wanted to get some people worked up over the numbers. I've accumulated everything I wanted to see happen in this thread. Easy formulae too (I do recall the formula now that it has been demonstrated).


But really, 10% isn't worth worrying about possible unnamed item drops. If you're worried about that percentage, then you might as well worry about 5 items dropping (3%). I think it's a good system and will still improve overall community relations.

This is a good fix for the exploiting too.

As you all have noted, this IS Statistics, and they didn't just randomly pull up a "dumb formula" to throw in to replace the old System of raid loot. When you add up the statistics (out of 100, out of 1,000, etc) you will see a distribution average of 2 items per raid run. And with Davey Crocket on our server, we will likely beat that average distribution despite the odds.

[Kistilan]

Socialism is an atrocious idea. That is all.

I <3 Marx and Nietzsche. PLUR.

[Mhykke]

The overall production of items should increase. There is a possibility of 12 items dropping. In the end this will create less-runs for most raiders. I'll take a Zero run once in awhile to see a pay-out of 5 items a few times.

11% isn't quite accurate.

As you have seen the numbers, the overall production of items will decrease. The only way it has a chance to stay the same is if every single raid is run by a full 12 person group. That's not going to happen. And there's virtually zero percent chance that 12 items drop. This will not create less runs for raiders. And as you saw, 11% is accurate. Slightly over 11%. Gol was right. More than one out of 10 full party, 12 person raids will see no named loot dropping.

i think everyone deserves a chance to go on a raid, and the previous system discouraged that so this change is good for the player who raids once or twice a month vs. the catassers who raid every raid every 3 days, maybe now they will teach others their ancient-DDO secrets because they will not be worried about 2-manning or 4-manning raids that are designed for 12 players to go on (not necessarily needed) as this game is about playing with others (at least to me)

Actually, no matter who we're talking about, this change is bad for the player. Whether it be the raider who raids every day, or the casual raider, who raids once a month. Less loot drops per run = bad for all!

Considering that most raids will still be short of 12 people (I'm sorry, but people aren't going to wait around trying to fill all 12 spots before raiding), that means that there will be, on average, less than 2 named drops per run. This is bad for EVERYBODY! If you're a casual raider, you want more average drops per run, not less. Power raider, you want the same.

Then consider that since the named drops are random, what happens to that casual raider when in a group w/ the power raider, and a named item drops for a third person? Who's more likely to get it? The power raider w/ the large trade list available to swap for the named loot, or the casual gamer (this is, ignoring the fact that there's no trade mechanic here, and I can't see people trading much raid loot in random pugs. Are you going to give away a piece of raid loot to a player you don't know if he says he'll trade you something in his "bank")?

Again, if people thinks this change helps casual raiders, that's incorrect. Less average named drops, again, is bad for all.

[SableShadow]

Again, if people thinks this change helps casual raiders, that's incorrect. Less average named drops, again, is bad for all..

Mhykke, you're trying to sway a couple of self-declared Marxists...yah, they *know* the numbers are gonna come down for everyone, but at least one of them has already stated they hope the change will mean you'll carry him through a raid.

Just pointing out your wasting your time with these two on the topic; to you or I, it's *obvious* that lower numbers = bad, higher numbers = good ... but, well, the reply is "Four legs good, two legs bad".

About sum it up?


Edit: Took out a shot at socialists in general, with apologies. No matter how strong my personal beliefs, politics has no place on a game forum.

[CSFurious]

under current system, 2 pieces of raid loot always drop, correct?

under new proposed system, while there is a chance that no raid loot will drop, is there also a chance that more than 2 pieces will drop or will the maximum still be 2? i do not know the answer, but if that is true, anyone who dislikes the proposed change is definitely an "uber-leet" snob

now, under current system, casual players are excluded because there is an incentive for raiders to bring as few players as possible so that the 2 pieces of loot that do drop can be divided, i.e., rolled on or just given out, amongst the 2 to 6 players on the raid; my question here is, how does that "exclusive" system benefit casual players in any way as the powergaming raider is never going to want to make their group any bigger than is absolutely necessary for the raid to be completed? this also does not even discuss the wasted loot, i.e., a player on my server constantly raids the stormreaver by himself, how many times do bound items drop that he has no use for? probably a lot, and under new system, other people may get those items which makes them happy which is good for DDO, i.e., since DDO does no real advertising anymore, we definitely need more happy players IMO

under new proposed system, 2 things will happen

first, either people will stop soloing, 2-manning, or 3-manning raids, etc. & start inviting more people on the raids to increase the chances of raid loot dropping that can then be bidded on or be subjected to trade discussions before same binds to anyone, how is that bad?

second, or some people will stop raiding constantly and will go out and get some fresh air and talk to real people face-to-face as the incentive to constantly be a catasser amd raid just got diminished somewhat for them as they may get no loot at all

i raid about once or twice every 2 weeks, rotating amongst the raids, and i have never gotten a single piece of raid loot under the current system because either i will not roll on the dropped items as i practice "need before greed" or i lost my roll like two weeks ago when the "bracers of the demon consort" dropped & i rolled a 22 out of 100

now, i would say that amount of raiding is not casual, but compared to the powergamers it definitely is as they raid every raid every 3 days

this change simply encourages group play

P.S. anyone who thinks that socialism equals marxism/communism either needs to read some more books or makes more than $200,000.00 per year, and i will also respectfully submit that unregulated capitalism is currently destroying the United States of America amongst other parts of the world

[Harbinder]

nvm

[Mhykke]

under current system, 2 pieces of raid loot always drop, correct?

under new proposed system, while there is a chance that no raid loot will drop, is there also a chance that more than 2 pieces will drop or will the maximum still be 2? i do not know the answer, but if that is true, anyone who dislikes the proposed change is definitely an "uber-leet" snob

now, under current system, casual players are excluded because there is an incentive for raiders to bring as few players as possible so that the 2 pieces of loot that do drop can be divided, i.e., rolled on or just given out, amongst the 2 to 6 players on the raid; my question here is, how does that "exclusive" system benefit casual players in any way as the powergaming raider is never going to want to make their group any bigger than is absolutely necessary for the raid to be completed? this also does not even discuss the wasted loot, i.e., a player on my server constantly raids the stormreaver by himself, how many times do bound items drop that he has no use for? probably a lot, and under new system, other people may get those items which makes them happy which is good for DDO, i.e., since DDO does no real advertising anymore, we definitely need more happy players IMO

under new propsoed system, 2 things will happen

first, either people will stop soloing, 2-manning, or 3-manning raids, etc. & start inviting more people on the raids to increase the chances of raid loot dropping that can then be bidded on or be subjected to trade discussions before same binds to anyone, how is that bad?

second, or some people will stop raiding constantly and will go out and get some fresh air and talk to real people face-to-face as the incentive to constantly be a catasser amd raid just got diminished somewhat for them as they may get no loot at all

i raid about once or twice every 2 weeks, rotating amongst the raids, and i have never gotten a single piece of raid loot under the current system because either i will not roll on the dropped items as i practice "need before greed" or i lost my roll like two weeks ago when the "bracers of the demon consort" dropped & i rolled a 22 out of 100

now, i would say that amount of raiding is not casual, but compared to the powergamers it definitely it is as they raid every raid every 3 days

this change simply encourages group play

P.S. anyone who thinks that socialism equals marxism/communism either needs to read some more books or makes more than $200,000.00 per year, and i will also respectfully submit that unregulated capitalism is currently destroying the United States of America amongst other parts of the world

This is the difference:

Average # of named drops per raid (Old system, no matter the party size): 2

Average # of named drops per raid (new system, any number less than a full raid of 12): less than 2

So, does this hurt the power raider? Yes, they'll have to run more raids to get specific named items. Does this hurt the casual raider? Yes!!!! The average size of raids still won't be 12, and so someone that raids only once in a while is not helped by lowering the average number of loot drops per raid, no matter which way you slice it. Add in the fact that now people are going to be trading items, how is the casual raider going to compete w/ uber trade lists from others? He's not. The casual raider better hope that whatever specific item he's looking for drops for him, b/c he's going to have a tough time trading for it.


And if people believe that raids are now going to be close to 12 person affairs, they're sadly mistaken, in my opinion. Sure, maybe people will run 6 man raids now instead of 2 or 3, but what these "power raiders" aren't going to do is put up LFM's for random people to join the raid just for a slightly better chance for a named item dropping. These "power raiders" aren't going to want to increase the chances of failure for a raid, they'll be content w/ just running it more keeping their guarantee of completion. Also, while increasing party members increases chances for named drops, it also increases competition for those drops. It isn't worth it considering the increased chance of failure.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see all this new incentive to create hurge raiding parties composed of people that don't raid all that often. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all those folks who 3 man raids will create LFM's inviting any and all to come join. If so, be prepared for me joining up, going afk for the whole raid, and then getting me loot!!!!!!!


As to the political thing, I won't touch it.

[Shieny]

I have a feeling one of the reasons they are changing the raid system is to get us to stop short manning raids. But if this is the reason then turbine listen: MAKE THE RAIDS HARDER! don't make us suffer because we can solo your raids, instead man up and make them real raids.

FYI: requiring us to run 4 quest everytime before we do a raid is not making the raid harder. It's making it that much more anoying.

[kaishaku]

under new proposed system, while there is a chance that no raid loot will drop, is there also a chance that more than 2 pieces will drop or will the maximum still be 2? i do not know the answer, but if that is true, anyone who dislikes the proposed change is definitely an "uber-leet" snob

...

first, either people will stop soloing, 2-manning, or 3-manning raids, etc. & start inviting more people on the raids to increase the chances of raid loot dropping that can then be bidded on or be subjected to trade discussions before same binds to anyone, how is that bad?

second, or some people will stop raiding constantly and will go out and get some fresh air and talk to real people face-to-face as the incentive to constantly be a catasser amd raid just got diminished somewhat for them as they may get no loot at all

I find your absolutes offensive.

I often find smaller groups more fun.

I have played one MMO, for a short time, DDO.

I get plenty of good, clean air. It is my greatest joy.

The raids I've been on would have been more fun if me
and a small group of friends discovered them on our own.
There will always be players who know everything about
the quest mechanics and many of them will usually try to
enforce their scripted procedure for completing the quest.

Playing in smaller, often explicitly constructed, groups makes
this less likely. Ideally, I play with a small group of friends.

Some of us consider static brackets dumb and misleading.

We can forget the loot, we don't mind too much. Can you?
I do not think you should have a problem with my group
being rewarded for our endeavours, yet you seem to.

We are hardly "uber-leet", let alone "catassers"? Honestly,
in all my time out in the real world (tm), I've made no
acquaintance who has used the term "catassers"...


P.S. More tangible targets for social, political and/or ethical
arguments are all around us. I could say anyone playing this
game is a tool of despicable corporate tactics, particularly
those who do not question them.

[kaishaku]

I have a feeling one of the reasons they are changing the raid system is to get us to stop short manning raids. But if this is the reason then turbine listen: MAKE THE RAIDS HARDER! don't make us suffer because we can solo your raids, instead man up and make them real raids.

FYI: requiring us to run 4 quest everytime before we do a raid is not making the raid harder. It's making it that much more anoying.

But it may extend subscriptions, as people will spend more time
accomplishing what they have planned, particularly if their plans
are influenced by those who went before, as they often are.

Any change which does this is suspect.

Many changes which do this are probably tactical.

Similarly, people may encourage friends with dormant 'toons to
start playing again, filling out their elite raiding parties. More
players is great, but only if for the right reasons... like... fun!

I question these things as an ethical person, not a powergamer.
If I were a powergamer I would not agree with bound items, as
I have in previous posts.

In the end, I don't really care what changes are made. We vote
with our money. I just like to provide perspective when I can.

[CSFurious]

i will never stop believing that as i believe that this game is about teamplay

however, the best alternative would be to make all raids like invaders & once you get your "X" number of tokens, you can get your precious raid loot, and if the fastest & easiest way to do that is to play with just you and your 3 friends, i congratulate you on both your playing skills and investment of time into the game, i.e., you really earned your loot

this is already done for invaders tokens, dragon armor scales, and relics for entrance into the tor, and i would believe would make most happy (100% happiness around here is impossible)

as to catassing, i believe a quick review of either wikipedia or a google search will reveal its popularity in describing a certain segment of the various MMO playerbases; i just got the link for you, it is an interesting post that helps explain some reasons for what likely motivated this change http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catassing

as to corporate tactics, whenever i do not have fun here anymore, i will just do something else for fun, and i am also not going to lose any sleep over what Turbine decides to do with its imaginary items because at the end of the day none of this really matters at all

I find your absolutes offensive.

I often find smaller groups more fun.

I have played one MMO, for a short time, DDO.

I get plenty of good, clean air. It is my greatest joy.

The raids I've been on would have been more fun if me
and a small group of friends discovered them on our own.
There will always be players who know everything about
the quest mechanics and many of them will usually try to
enforce their scripted procedure for completing the quest.

Playing in smaller, often explicitly constructed, groups makes
this less likely. Ideally, I play with a small group of friends.

Some of us consider static brackets dumb and misleading.

We can forget the loot, we don't mind too much. Can you?
I do not think you should have a problem with my group
being rewarded for our endeavours, yet you seem to.

We are hardly "uber-leet", let alone "catassers"? Honestly,
in all my time out in the real world (tm), I've made no
acquaintance who has used the term "catassers"...


P.S. More tangible targets for social, political and/or ethical
arguments are all around us. I could say anyone playing this
game is a tool of despicable corporate tactics, particularly
those who do not question them.

[steelblade]

ok heres my say............if you do this new raid thing then we want x-tra chances on geting the collectables in the non-raid chests,you know the 3 non-raid chests in reavers? put the colectables in those as well

[kaishaku]

CSFurious,

I said: "I often find smaller groups more fun."

You reply: "if the fastest & easiest way to do
that is to play with just you and your 3 friends".

This and your other replies are off-target.

[CSFurious]

you might have lots of in-game friends, so my response was in general terms to the 2-man, 3-man, 4-man raiders, no intention to single out you and your "?" number of friends

as to not being on target, "people who live in glass houses, should not throw stones"

CSFurious,

I said: "I often find smaller groups more fun."

You reply: "if the fastest & easiest way to do
that is to play with just you and your 3 friends".

This and your other replies are off-target.

[kaishaku]

CSFurious,

You are off-target again.

You have replied with the following false implications:

1. We believe smaller groups = "me and my 3 friends".
2. We believe fun = "fastest & easiest".
3. We needed to know what "catassing" meant, ie. We cannot google.
4. We care about losing virtual property and this is our primary interest in corporate tactics.
5. We do not believe the game is about teamplay.
6. We believe raid loot is oh so "precious".
7. We are not having fun playing DDO.
8. We say "off-target" when we mean to complain about your abuse.

You have fabricated points to which you can best reply.

I could do the same by stating an advantageous response to
something you never said.

This is offensive, as is your glass house comment.

Your stones are imaginary.

1. Smallers groups are smaller, not "just [me] and [my] 3 friends".
2. Fun is fun, not "fastest & easiest".
3. We don't need to use such terms, as we do not "face to face".
4. We believe corporate tactics are monumentally important.
5. We believe the game is about fun with friends, ie. "teamplay".
6. Raid loot is fun, RPGs are fun, games are fun, rewards are fun.
7. We play DDO for carefully evaluated reasons, all involving good fun.
8. We ignore your abuse and point out logical flaws in your attacks.

[Nirvana]

Just want to point out, the average numbers of named item dropping for 12-man raid is 2. The AVERAGE result comes from a HUGE numbers of raid runs with 12 people.

I'm not saying the current loot system is good, but the new system is worse.

[CSFurious]

this reminds me now of a debate about whether vanilla or chocolate ice cream tastes better

i am putting you on my ignore list now, and would appreciate it if you would return the favor

thank you

CSFurious,

You are off-target again.

You have replied with the following false implications:

1. We believe smaller groups = "me and my 3 friends".
2. We believe fun = "fastest & easiest".
3. We needed to know what "catassing" meant, ie. We cannot google.
4. We care about losing virtual property and this is our primary interest in corporate tactics.
5. We do not believe the game is about teamplay.
6. We believe raid loot is oh so "precious".
7. We are not having fun playing DDO.
8. We say "off-target" when we mean to complain about your abuse.

You have fabricated points to which you can best reply.

I could do the same by stating an advantageous response to
something you never said.

This is offensive, as is your glass house comment.

Your stones are imaginary.

1. Smallers groups are smaller, not "just [me] and [my] 3 friends".
2. Fun is fun, not "fastest & easiest".
3. We don't need to use such terms, as we do not "face to face".
4. We believe corporate tactics are monumentally important.
5. We believe the game is about fun with friends, ie. "teamplay".
6. Raid loot is fun, RPGs are fun, games are fun, rewards are fun.
7. We play DDO for carefully evaluated reasons, all involving good fun.
8. We ignore your abuse and point out logical flaws in your attacks.