Weekly Dev Activities: 7/30/07

[Solik]

Nice changes.

I might actually do raids under this new system (I've never done the titan, demon queen, or reaver, and did not intend to do the lich).

[Riai]

A minimum of one raid item per raid, with the possibility for more (1 out of 6 per person) sounds fair.

If, as I believe I read somewhere, a chest does not generate for a player until he/she actually looks at it, how could they guarantee a minimum of any number of raid items? So, if I go in with a group of 6 and only 4 actually look in the chest (highly unlikely, but possible), does that generate only for 1 of those 4? How does the system know that the other 2 won't open it also? What if the raid started with people who didn't finish the quest? Should they be counted towards the minimum?

It sounds like putting in minimums on a raid like this would be a huge overhaul in how loot is generated. We're not talking about loot tables with a cleric preference or a fighter preference for a certain level. We're talking about taking groups into account as to when and how to generate loot before tables are even considered. I'm not saying it's not possible or bad, but it's hard to believe it would come in Mod 5 and I'm sure we'd hear just as many complaints. (ex. our cleric went LD as we finished, but no one got a named item! That's not fair!)

The average amount of Raid loot dropping definately takes a hit with this, but I don't know if that's such a bad thing. I do know that I've run about a dozen varied raids and have yet to have gotten a raid item (I need a better d100), so this certainly couldn't be any worse than my results so far.

[Gimpster]

If, as I believe I read somewhere, a chest does not generate for a player until he/she actually looks at it, how could they guarantee a minimum of any number of raid items?

They'd have to change the game program to do that. Somewhere they'd need to find a computer programmer. That's not impossible- in fact, chances are high they've got one or more on the payroll already.

[Capstern]

No, it's not particularly worse for clerics than for any other caster who casts spells whose results are measured in hitpoints (either of damage or healing). They experience similar changes.


It has the effect of making metamagic relatively cheaper on higher-level spells and relatively more expensive on low level spells. I think that's a good change, because currently some high-level DDO spells are worse than their low-level counterparts.

Look at Empower spell.
Level, Base sp, Current Emp Sp, New Emp Sp
1, 10, 20, 25
2, 15, 30, 30
3, 20, 40, 35
4, 25, 50, 40
5, 30, 60, 45
6, 35, 70, 50
7, 40, 80, 55

As you see, it's only level 1 spells that cost more to Empower in the new system. Level 2 spells cost the same, and every higher-level spell costs less. That means it actually might be more cost-effective to cast Disintegrate instead of Scorching Ray! The issues aren't any different for healing or damage spells. You might decide to take CLW off your bar and only use the higher-level spells from now on... well, so what? They're better and cheaper.

Or look at level 3 Fireball vs level 7 Delayed Blast Fireball. FB is 10d6 for 20 sp, DBF is 14d6 for 40 sp. In the current system, empowering them makes it 15d6 for 40 sp or 21d6 for 80 sp. That is, currently Emp FB is 1.87 hp/sp, while Emp DBF is 1.32 hp/sp. In the new system, Emp FB will be 2.15 hp/sp and Emp DFB will be 1.9 hp/sp. DFB is still less efficient, but it's no longer horribly bad.

Sorry I do math like Kargon and maybe it is just 1st and 2nd level spells and so I can live with that but boy howdy they just made it easy for me to drop IMT and MT off my wf wiz and not worry about the SP loss

My casters were the uber death machines since the last change (I dont care what some of you think abotu shorter durations you are out of your minds) casters were teh cats meow and this makes them roar IMO

Heck my WF wiz can solo PoP until the doors and I can pretty much do the lead up to each dragon by running to the rune - throwing a max,emp,ext firewall and shield block and it all dies

not sure where casters got gimped last patch but if that was being gimped did they just cut my leg off muhahahahahah DIE MOB DIE

[Pecky]

I'm gonig to try and make this post as civil as possible.

So, instead of Turbine employees saying:

"Hey, good job. Congradulations on a successful four man raid. You must really spend a lot of time honing your playing abilities and your character. Here's your reward."

They instead have said:

"OMG! Those players have figured out how to beat my carefully crafted raid with less than a full party! I can't have that. Ok.. what to do. I know! Lets remove their rewards so smaller parties (that have to spend a lot more time honing their skills and ability to work together) are discouraged from running these quests! Yes! That'll definately make their enjoyment of the game even greater!"

Ok. So maybe they didn't say exactly that but that is how I feel about these changes. I run with a small guild. We rarely have more than six people on at peak and because of that we have figured out how to work together well and be able to complete raids. Sometimes we have to go do Stormreaver with only three people and no cleric. Or we have to go do Titan/Twilight Forge with four people because we just don't have the bodies to fill up a larger party (and no, we are a tight guild. We are not going to pug players just to have more warm bodies. That is not how we get enjoyment from the game).

This change has taken away our incentive to go run raids. The fact that we all have multiple capped characters and have run the heck out of all the quests means that the only thing we have left to do that we enjoy is raiding. With that last bit of enjoyment taken away, our desire to continue to play is fading with it. And thats not just us. I'm sure there are many, many people out there who feel the same way.

So employees of Turbine, I ask you to think about how a change like this benefits the game. How this change is going to make players happy. If you want raids to be more difficult stop making them so they are ten minute quests. Make them so they are epic encounters. Make them more random so that each time you enter its the same five steps.

This change is bad. I'm not sure there are is any other way to put it than that. It hurts smaller groups and its not going encourage more pugging, its going to discourage raiding.

[KoboldKiller]

As far as being forced to grind and grind more now for that item your looking for that is your choice. No one said you cannot continue without the Torc or Helm or whatever you feel you "need". So making it harder for you to get what you think you "need" is not the fault of Turbine.

[tekn0mage]

and the blaze rages on....

[Riai]

They'd have to change the game program to do that. Somewhere they'd need to find a computer programmer. That's not impossible- in fact, chances are high they've got one or more on the payroll already.

Please read my whole post. I explained the problems, not all of which are purely technical. I also stated that it's not impossible. As one dev (not here) put it, anything can be done with enough time and money.

[Solik]

The change promotes raid pugging. Which means you should be able to get into more of them.

Good news.

[Capstern]

and the blaze rages on....

*holds up lighter*

[gpk]

NEW - The metamagic system in Dungeons and Dragons Online has undergone significant changes in Module 5.0: Accursed Ascension.

The biggest change that casters will discover is that each metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell now has a fixed spell point cost increase rather than multiplying the spell point cost of a spell as they did before Module 5.0. These surcharges are as follows:

Extend Spell: +10 SP

So an extended level 1 spell cost 20 sp and casting it twice costs 20 sp? Great another shaft to Paladins and Rangers. Are those 2 classes getting more Spell point like Wizard, Clerics & Sorcs got to compensate for this? Or a free Dragonshard to respec it out? Wiz/Sor/Cle got a buttload more SP last update and now even more perks.
C'mon devs, throw a little SP love to some classes beyond clerics wizzies and sorcs, seems like you don't think of the repercussions to other classes at all.

Say a 20 minute run before shrine:
BEFORE:

10x extended Divne Favors: 10*15=150
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*23=184
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 38=76
150+184+76=410 SP
410 SP is more than the typical Paladin has, lets assume pally has good Wis, magi item maybe 20 more SPs from enhancement, its kinda achievale though not typical.
This of course doesnt include ANY dispelled spell recasts.

AFTER
10x extended Divne Favors: 10*20=200
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*25=200
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 35=70
200+200+70=470 SP

60 more SP to a paladin is a lot, and that's not even counting failed casts/dispells.
Factor in a a few recasts due to dispells or failed concentration checks and the difference gets even more pronounced, e.g. 3 recasts of DF=+15 sp over prev system.

Basically this new system penalizes the many Paladins/Rangers who have the Extend feat. Will we be tetting 100 more spell points or a Dragon Shard to respec Extend out ?

I've been crossing my fingers for a nice Paladin only spell like Righteous Fury (Something nice for Paladins) since MOD4, guess I'll have to keep em crossed.

gpk

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So there is a chance no raid loot will drop? Not a big fan of this.

There is also a chance of 12 pieces of raid loot and your odds in the long run of getting something stay 1/6. I'm ok with that

[Capstern]

I can see what some people are saying - maybe a token system that you can turn in for an item of choice after you collect so many would be good - isnt that really what the scales are?

It would fit in with the turbine way of doing things and heck I would love that.
Not sure why they didnt go that way but would have been cool

Will this make me bring more people on my raids naw...3-6 is fine tome 1/6 shot is 1/6 shot.

There is so much raid loot thats just junk....when you are in a small raid and you get a bravos sword and insulated armor - isnt that more or less like not tolling a 1 on your 1/6 raid loot shot under the new system?

I know the math probably wouldnt work out to suport me but I dont really care. 1/6 gives me loot shot everytime. Thats what I have now and well I like to hope for the best.

Is this a perfect fix not really - would a token system (like the scales) be better (heck yeah and make them bind). Then at least I would grind out like 10 raids and then go buy the item I really need

Does that gibe with the DND random loot in your chest and you feel happy when you get lucky - not really but come on there is no GM to nudge things in the right direction either

Graal look at this:

How about a combo .... you get a 1/6 shot at a raid item there on the spot and if you dont get an item you get a raid token that binds

The you can have a raid loot vendor ...say the SoS is lke 25 raid tokens or the ruby guantlets are like 4

Something like that would rock - that way you have the system you are proposing and that magical YAY I got it moment or you have the ok I am working towards what I really want. Make the tokens BIND

Come on this would be easy to do....replace the random loot for the 2-6 rolls with tokens - you can add those easy and then add an NPC with the raid loot for each boss somewhere near that boss - JUST LIKE SCALES and look how much people are working their arses of for that

and maybe scale the odds of 1/6 up if the difficulty is higher

1/6 shot at instant gratification and a grind to earn it

[tekn0mage]

There is also a chance of 12 pieces of raid loot and your odds in the long run of getting something stay 1/6. I'm ok with that

Actually, no the chances of getting 12 items is so remotely impossible, yet the chances of rolling 12 goose eggs is so probable, the two extremes are not even close to evenly balanced.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes, this is the best attitude to take going into the new system. I'm sure it will net you dozens of parties.

I can't say anything for sure, when we haven't even seen the new system in action......but how is it fair to do as someone else said, and invite someone on a raid, only if they agree to give up a good item to someone else who called it first?
The best thing about DDO chest system has been that we all have assigned loot waiting for us in every chest. None of this "I saw it first" ****.
If someone wants something that I do not need or want real badly, he can ask for it......and maybe we can negotiate......I've given away things in the past to many people.
But, to date. I have no raid loot. Now at least, I have a chance to get some every time, and I can be certain that there is something for me in that big chest next to the dragon.

Yes. I'm sure this hurts those 4 man guilds who raid and raid and never invite anyone else.......but I'm not a part of them.....so.....I see it as helping me, and anyone else who isn't in your click or fave five or whatever.

From most of these posts, many of you just look very greedy to me.
But I guess that is why I'm not in your guilds.......I probably wasn't in your college fraternity either.

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

If, as I believe I read somewhere, a chest does not generate for a player until he/she actually looks at it, how could they guarantee a minimum of any number of raid items? So, if I go in with a group of 6 and only 4 actually look in the chest (highly unlikely, but possible), does that generate only for 1 of those 4? How does the system know that the other 2 won't open it also? What if the raid started with people who didn't finish the quest? Should they be counted towards the minimum?

It sounds like putting in minimums on a raid like this would be a huge overhaul in how loot is generated. We're not talking about loot tables with a cleric preference or a fighter preference for a certain level. We're talking about taking groups into account as to when and how to generate loot before tables are even considered. I'm not saying it's not possible or bad, but it's hard to believe it would come in Mod 5 and I'm sure we'd hear just as many complaints. (ex. our cleric went LD as we finished, but no one got a named item! That's not fair!)

The average amount of Raid loot dropping definately takes a hit with this, but I don't know if that's such a bad thing. I do know that I've run about a dozen varied raids and have yet to have gotten a raid item (I need a better d100), so this certainly couldn't be any worse than my results so far.

Give the guaranteed item to the raid leader. It's not unprecedented, the leader has been given two raid items in every warded chest raid up until this point. Now he would only get one.

[Jamz]

Here's a PERFECT opportunity to make Raid Difficulties MEAN something...

Right now, there's no reason to do a raid on Elite, you have the same chance for Raid loot on normal (outside of favor, lets assume you did that already).

Why not INCREASE the chance to get raid loot based on difficulty?

Say:

Normal = 1 in 6 chance
Hard = 1 in 4 chance
Elite = 1 in 2 chance

Heck, even a 1:6, 1:5, 1:4, throw us a bone here?!? Do that and you REALLY promote raids then...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Here's a PERFECT opportunity to make Raid Difficulties MEAN something...

Right now, there's no reason to do a raid on Elite, you have the same chance for Raid loot on normal (outside of favor, lets assume you did that already).

Why not INCREASE the chance to get raid loot based on difficulty?

Say:

Normal = 1 in 6 chance
Hard = 1 in 4 chance
Elite = 1 in 2 chance

Heck, even a 1:6, 1:5, 1:4, throw us a bone here?!? Do that and you REALLY promote raids then...

I kinda like this idea....

I'd much rather see a group of 12 hitting it on elite for the better chance of winning than a group of 2 trying to prove how uber they are anyway.

[Gimpster]

I might actually do raids under this new system (I've never done the titan, demon queen, or reaver, and did not intend to do the lich).

In the unlikely event that this new system causes you to do raids you didn't before, it will be because other players are using you as a tool to get more pulls of items they want.

Under the old system (which you never ran aside from Velah) you had a low chance of getting loot on your first run, although if you went with a group of characters who'd already raided a lot your odds would be higher, as they'd tend to already have most of what drops. Under the new system you'll have an even lower chance of getting some loot. So why do you think that's better, again?

[tekn0mage]

Here's a PERFECT opportunity to make Raid Difficulties MEAN something...

Right now, there's no reason to do a raid on Elite, you have the same chance for Raid loot on normal (outside of favor, lets assume you did that already).

Why not INCREASE the chance to get raid loot based on difficulty?

Say:

Normal = 1 in 6 chance
Hard = 1 in 4 chance
Elite = 1 in 2 chance

Heck, even a 1:6, 1:5, 1:4, throw us a bone here?!? Do that and you REALLY promote raids then...

Now that I could live with.