Weekly Dev Activities: 7/30/07

[Vinos]

He didn't really seem to contradict me. He also specifically said he wasn't talking about smaller-than-12 groups.



.

He pointed out that in most cases you have a better chance of getting raid loot with the current system. I have been in many PuG raids and I don't think I have ever seen all 12 people roll for 1 item. Usually depending on what drops maybe 4 or 5 people will roll on each item. There are exceptions where mathmatically you have a better shot at loot with new system over the old system assuming a full team. But there are few pieces of raid loot that everyone wants and as I pointed out earlier there is a difference between not rolling on something and simply giving something away that is already yours. Aside from guildies I don't see why anyone would give thier raid loot away. Like the change or not there will be a decrease in raid loot and even in a full 12 man party you have a less chance of getting something.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

If I'm reading this right, this makes no sense.

You're saying that if you run with a group of 12, you have only a 27% chance of getting one item but if you run with a group of 6 you have a 40% chance of getting one item?

How is that even possible considering the group of 12 has six more chances than the group of 12?

Those extra chances for the group of 12 means that getting only 1 is not the most likely outcome for a group of 12. Getting 2 items is more likely, and getting 3 items is nearly as likely. The higher probabilities of getting more than 1 item in a group 12 makes the probability of getting only 1 item lower.

Just do the math yourself if you don't think it looks right. If you can't do the math, what the hell are you opening your mouth for?

[tekn0mage]

This is part of the problem with the game... We need to pug more...

There isn't more pugging going on because there is a serious lack of people. It's a separate issue for a separate thread, but when its prime-time there's no lack of groups forming up.

This solution is obviously geared towards them, and snuffs out the people who run a leaner, tighter raid effort.

Personally, I find getting 12 people together in a group very difficult to manage. People go AFK at the wrong times, people talk to NPCs and start fights/advance without all players present, someone who's not the designated trap-getter blows up a crucial box...all of these are management issues that sometimes can be avoided by going in with a smaller group.

Raids that have 12 people are supposed to be fun, and it's hard to play that way when death penalties/re-entry penalties and power-level penalties are applied.

None of it is WRONG or BAD, it's just not always desirable to run a full load of 12 people. Sometimes, its a late night run and you want to run with half is just as fun as a fully kitted out team. This system kills any incentive to do so. Loot less, raid less, that's all it really means. But yay, that single solo pugger who's never raided before can finally get in there with a 12% chance at getting an item! yay... er wait...

Isn't that a prime example of the tail wagging the dog?

[MysticTheurge]

He pointed out that in most cases you have a better chance of getting raid loot with the current system.

Mathematically, in a 12 person group, you have exactly the same chance of getting raid loot under the new system that you did under the old system. Any "people only want certain items" or "you have to roll against other people" factors remain unchanged.

In a smaller than 12 person group, you have a smaller chance of getting raid loot under the new system than you did under the old system. I've never denied that.

But what the new system does is alter the mathematics so that on average, you (yourself) have the same chance of getting a piece of raid loot regardless of the size of your group. Everyone, whether they're in a 1 man group or a 12 man group, has a 1 in 6 chance that they will be the one to end up with Raid Loot at the end of the run. It's not punishing smaller groups, it just stops rewarding them. It also stops punishing people for going in larger groups (since they now have, statistically, the same chance as someone in a short-manned group).

[Ekental]

You could easily argue that preventing smaller groups from being awarded is a PUNISHMENT.

You could also argue that going in a larger group should be punished, as the smaller group might have more difficulties completeing the raid. If it wasn't, you wouldn't SEE larger groups forming at all.

Semantics are all well and good, but I'd like to question your standpoint, if you don't mind.

I'm from a small raiding guild, i.e., so the new raiding system seems like an amazing slap in the face to everyone in the guild. We feel like we're being punished simply because we enjoy raiding and grouping with a small group that has grown to work well together. Many of us simply don't LIKE the sheer # of people in a large guild.

[lostinjapan]

[*]NEW - The primary warded chest in all raids has been converted to the standard format for all chests in DDO. Every player in the raid will have their own treasure generated and assigned to them when they look into the chest. The locking glyphs are no more.

Each character has a 1 in 6 chance to receive a special item from that raid’s loot table. Otherwise, a standard treasure from the maximum treasure table appropriate for that raid will be generated for that character. Players may re-assign any items to other characters in the raid using the new treasure re-assignment feature. This includes any special raid only items.

The raid only items are still bound once they are removed from the chest. A warning confirmation box appears when attempting to grab a bind on acquire raid item from the chest.

In addition, the primary warded chest creates the list of characters that are allowed to loot the chest at the time chest spawns. This list contains all the members of the raid at the time the list was created. Characters not on the list do not have treasure generated for them when they open the chest and may not have items re-assigned to them.

I was going to make a long post explaining all the reasons this was wrong, why I hated it and what could possibly be done to make it less of a jagged little pill to swallow...then decided "what's the point?".

[Aspenor]

It's not punishing smaller groups, it just stops rewarding them.

No offense MT, but I don't see how you can actually believe this statement. It just sounds like an attempt to rationalize why this change acceptable. It's pretty clear to me that this change is a direct shot at those people that duo/trio raids, since the odds of getting a raid item at all are exceedingly low and the odds of getting what you want are next to nil.

I for one thing one item should stay under the current system, and belong to the "party," not a person, and should be warded etc. At least you know you will have one raid item then, and the entire raid won't be for nothing.

[MysticTheurge]

No offense MT, but I don't see how you can actually believe this statement. It just sounds like an attempt to rationalize why this change acceptable. It's pretty clear to me that this change is a direct shot at those people that duo/trio raids, since the odds of getting a raid item at all are exceedingly low and the odds of getting what you want are next to nil.

I can understand how you might view it as a punishment. The reward for a smaller group is going down. It will be smaller under the new system than under the old system. But that's not the differential I'm talking about

But I guess I'm just looking at it differently than most of the rest of you. I prefer to compare Large group to Small group under the old system and then separately Large group to Small group under the new system.

Under the old system: Large groups are rewarded less than small groups.
Under the new system: Everyone's rewarded the same.

To me, this means that you're not really punishing smaller groups, you're just going to stop rewarding them more than large groups. That certainly is less of a reward than small groups go under the old system, and if you want to think of that as a punishment then there's not really anything I can do to stop you.

Honestly, I have no strong feelings about the exact ratio. A shift from 1:6 to 1:4 would mean that the differential between the old system and the new system and the new system would be nil for groups of 8 people and less noticeable for smaller groups. But I would prefer they stick with a flat ratio of loot-per-person, since anything else (even something as simple as a "one piece at least guaranteed" system) is going to go right back to encouraging smaller groups.

[Aesop]

You could easily argue that preventing smaller groups from being awarded is a PUNISHMENT.

You could also argue that going in a larger group should be punished, as the smaller group might have more difficulties completeing the raid. If it wasn't, you wouldn't SEE larger groups forming at all.

Semantics are all well and good, but I'd like to question your standpoint, if you don't mind.

I'm from a small raiding guild, i.e., so the new raiding system seems like an amazing slap in the face to everyone in the guild. We feel like we're being punished simply because we enjoy raiding and grouping with a small group that has grown to work well together. Many of us simply don't LIKE the sheer # of people in a large guild.

Really now instead of getting 2 pieces of Raid loot that you divide up between however many people you have in the Raid you now all have a chance to get a piece of Raid Loot... heck you could on rare occassion all get a piece of Raid Loot. On the Other hand you could all not get a piece of Raid loot... but even then you'll still get something everytime you pop that chest open. I don't see this as bad. I mean they are trying to promote people grouping afterall. Doin a Raid with fewer people should just be a test of your abilities not something you do everytime you go in to the Raid.

Aesop

[Aspenor]

since anything else (even something as simple as a "one piece at least guaranteed" system) is going to go right back to encouraging smaller groups.

this is where our opinions differ then. I don't see any reason to encourage larger groups, which is what this does. We get penalized for improving our gameplay and being more efficient? It really is a penalty. There's no other way to define it.

[Venar]

Well, let me at least suggest some changes to help us accept this change to loot:

Suggetion 1:
Make the ex-warded chest a +1 loot chest.

Suggestion 2:
Bring the ratio to 1:5. Still hurts the small raid (which is the believed intention) but actually buffs large raids.

[MysticTheurge]

We get penalized for improving our gameplay and being more efficient? It really is a penalty. There's no other way to define it.

No. You have the same chance of getting raid loot for yourself as anyone in any other sized group does.

12 people: 12 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 12 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.
4 people: 4 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 4 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.

[Aesop]

someone made the suggestion of increasing the ratio based on difficulty. I could see that being ok. 1:6Normal 1:5Hard 1:4Elite

I wouldn't mind that

Aesop

[Ziggy]

In the mist of the arguing, i figured i would post this here.
The TOughness Respec is getting fixed in MOD 5.

The issue with toughness respec that you are referring to is that you cannot use respec to acquire toughness more then once, is that correct? That issue will be corrected with mod 5.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I can understand how you might view it as a punishment. The reward for a smaller group is going down. It will be smaller under the new system than under the old system.

Well, yes. I think that's a problem.

The new system doesn't incentivize larger groups, and there's not really any disincentive to run small groups, either.

The only real change is to remove the existing incentive to run smaller groups.

Because it doesn't actually incentivize larger PUGs, it is indisputably a punitive change aimed squarely at one particular segment of the gaming population.

I don't do a whole lot of raiding, and have never (successfully... ) short-manned a raid.

My only personal stake in this change is to sit here wondering why Turbine wants to potentially drive away those who are arguably their most active and loyal subscribers.

With no incentive for a larger group, the disadvantages loom larger. Getting a 12-man raid together is like herding cats. As a regular but fairly casual player myself (with maybe 2 hours of play time on any given night) I can't begin to tell you what a pain it is to get 12 people ready for a raid. I believe it's fairly typical for the organizing of the raid to take as long or longer than the raid itself.

Since my casual-gamer chances of getting raid loot haven't actually gone up in the new system, I'd still rather run as soon as we have enough people to complete the raid-- and no more. There's no reason to fill out to 12 people-- diminishing returns on gains vs. hassle.

For the hard-core short-man raider, however, the situation looks a whole lot worse. He's indisputably getting LESS LOOT for his efforts under the new system. If the reason he was still subscribing was because of loot runs, he now has less reason to keep playing.

To me, this means that you're not really punishing smaller groups, you're just going to stop rewarding them more than large groups.

Correct. They are not giving more to large groups, they are simply taking something away from small groups. That is punishment for anyone who enjoyed small groups, while adding nothing to the enjoyment of larger groups. The net result is more unhappiness and, likely, fewer subscribers.

[Aspenor]

No. You have the same chance of getting raid loot for yourself as anyone in any other sized group does.

12 people: 12 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 12 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.
4 people: 4 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 4 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.

All loot is not created equal, MT. Try getting the items you want to get under the new system with short-mans. I usually run in pairs. 2:12 = 1:6 chance a raid item drops. Depending on the raid, there is approximately 1:10 chance (just an estimate based on how many different raid items per chest) of getting the item I want to drop. Now we're looking at approximately a 1:60 chance per run of obtaining the desired item, assuming the other player isn't going to roll on it. Then the chance drops to 1:120 until that partner has the item in question, and after that he may bring in another character that wants it too.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

12 people: 12 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 12 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.

4 people: 4 in 6 chance of having loot drop, 1 in 4 chance of being the one to end up with the loot.

Bad math, bad typing, or both.

[Aspenor]

Bad math, bad typing, or both.

It's not "bad" math, but it makes ALOT of assumptions. Assumptions that are flat-out untrue.

[Gimpster]

We feel like we're being punished simply because we enjoy raiding and grouping with a small group that has grown to work well together. Many of us simply don't LIKE the sheer # of people in a large guild.

I'm in a large guild, and it's fine. Depending on the people there is no problem with having a lot of them. We raid a lot- but we hardly ever raid with more than 8, and usually with just 5-7. Why?

Because having much more than 6 players in a single instance strains the UI and game design of DDO. D&D and DDO were not really meant for more than 6 people in a group. Having more than 5-6 people means you are no longer collaborating teammates, and instead are obedient soldiers. 6 players can manage talking and leadership with spontaneous organization, but with 8-12 players you've got to formally divide it up into leaders who talk and decide, and followers who listen and obey.

In a game where 97% of all quests have a hard limit of 6 players, it is wrong for the 5 specific quests with the best loot to punish you with 50% less loot drops if you go in with the same party size as in all the rest of the game.

[KoboldKiller]

I realize this will be an unpopular statement and it's really not meant to offend just an observation and MHO. I understand that with the new system it may reduce the posibility of getting raid loot. Having re-thought my position it seems that the only people that really have an issue with this are the people that already have a ton of raid loot to begin with and do nothing but raid. There are people saying that the smaller groups or solo runners are being punished. From what I've seen of other posts those people can accomplish these tasks due to having all the power gear they need to do it. Why do you need more? Trade, sell, hoard? I may be wrong but it seems the reason behind this is due to there being to much power equipment in circulation. The people that are getting the "short end" of the stick are those that do not posses all the power equipment and now have less of a chance of pulling something great. I still don't see this as a problem as most of this equipment is not actually needed to play the game. Again this is just my opinion.