New Difficulty Level = Content?

[Hambo]

I like the idea of a Hardcore difficulty, only open to players that have completed Elite.

The only thing I would add is that the ability to enter "Hardcore" is checked on an individual, rather than a party basis. Without this you would have a group with only 1 "qualified" member opening the instance.

[Mirta]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. A new difficulty needs to be added where we are harmed by friendly fire. This would require a whole lot of teamwork and would give us powergamers and pros something to worry about. Cleric steps between the scorching sorc and an enemy? Whoops! BAM! Cleric takes the full force and goes down. I'd love to see this new level of difficulty because I hate the fact that as a caster I often find myself spamming firewalls and the whole party runs around in them trying to kill the mob which is now aggro'd on me.

[Dirac]

It seems this is quite common but I can't exactly seem why +1 loot is a bad thing? I would suggest this only for "end loot" rewards otherwise chest/loot runs would be out of hand.

Otherwise, if everyone is running HardCore non stop vs elite, how would that affect you?

Plus, if EVERYone is running HardCore non-stop, then they didn't do HardCore right

Basically, HardCore would be a setting that no one should be able to complain about it being "too" hard. And worst case, the hard core players are just getting vorpals and paralyzers etc, which quite frankly already have tons of.

Finally, you could always put a "Raid Timer" on it, I'm thinking 4-24 hrs? Simply to prevent said, "Run PoP on Hardcore 10 times!"

I would also suggest the "Raid Timer" activates at the START of the quest, not the end, therefore, you must wait regardless if you succeed or not.

Lastly, if it's strickly for bragging rights, it then only serves a "smaller" population of people. I know several hard core players that didn't do Favor and still don't and don't play the game for "bragging" rights. They play the game for a challenge, to collect loot, and play with friends. Every risk should have an equal reward or there is no point?

Just my POV, not bashing other views, and just trying to offer "options" for the Devs to keep more people.

Does anyone feel that they would leave the game IF something like this was implemented?

I really like the discussion here, as all these suggestions are worthwhile and there are many good ideas. Jamz makes many reasonable arguments above. Let me attempt to expand on why I very strongly believe it would be a bad idea to associate +1 loot or extra power/favor as a reward for the envisioned elite/uber/insane setting.

To start, we know that a casual gamer/power gamer dichotomy does not really exist; there is a continuum of players with regard to playing seriousness. There are people who have played one character since launch that have never been capped because they barely average 1-2 hours a week of playing time. Others play many hours a day, every day. And you have every stripe in between.

Now the idea is to create something that would be a challenge for the best of the best, the uber-elite that play all of the time and currently blow through every quest on elite in record times. They would appreciate such a challenge. The most casual of gamers that don't even play elite quests wouldn't care. However, what about others in the continuum?

There is probably a sizable population of players that are not the uber-elite, not because they don't want to be, but because they do not have the time to be. This group currently run all the quests the uber-elite run, but don't run them as quickly (nor as often). They currently have access to all the power and high-level chests the uber-elite do, but will simply take longer to acquire a similar level of power. For example, the uber-elite might ransack PoP on 6 characters every week. Another player will be running elite PoP as well but only 6 times per week total. This second player will not be able to attain power of the first as quickly, but eventually, they will get their vorpals, disrupters, etc. because they at least have access to the the same loot as the uber-elite.

Now, you create a new setting that only a few can complete. If it is just for fun, for bragging rights, I can't see how it would offend anyone. However, if there is +1 loot associated with it, you have now created a level of treasure that a large portion of the player base would never have access to, and many would care. And for them that would be infuriating.

By definition, by design if you will, this new setting will cut off the vast majority of the players. If, in addition, the best loot will be found here, I can only imagine the response.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

how about...you could only get flagged for hard core after completing...say...85% of the quests on elite...and you have to be flagged to enter...

[Kethir]

I believe that people are smart. I believe that people know when they are talked down to, when they are discriminated against, when they are told they are not welcome.

If you add a new difficulty and call it super elite, thats fine. However there are repercussions.

If you make three grades of gasoline, and call them regular, super and premium, then people will choose whatever they feel is best for them. They'll pay the price of what grade they want and they won't really care if other people choose different grades, because they paid more for them. If you offer three types of sushi, people choose the type they want. If its the cheap one, well, they might not feel the need to pay more for something that isn't that much "better" to their taste.

If you make everyone pay the same, however, and have 2 grades of service depending on the person, then you have a problem. If a restaurant says, hey, I like you, you're "cool", you will be seated in the front of the restaurant and you will get the nicely marbled steak - no extra charge. Would you go to that restaurant, even if the food and service were good, if you knew the guy next to you regularly got the better cuts of mean - FOR THE SAME PRICE - just because the owner liked him, and his "type"? That class of customer sits near the window and gets better food for the same price. Or rather, you get to subsidize those people's food.

Maybe you would. Certainly plenty of businesses do this and people still go to them. But I think Turbine has already determined this is NOT the way they want to go. We can suspect this because Wiz King, Chains of flame and Offering of Blood on elite were TOUGH quests at that time. Madstone, crucible and pop are not nearly as hard as those quests were. Well, perhaps madstone, but not crucible and pop. Everyone can do elite now, not just the "uber" people.

Now, you create a new setting that only a few can complete. If it is just for fun, for bragging rights, I can't see how it would offend anyone.

This would be fine, and you're right. But it wouldn't work. How many people here ran quests on elite before the favor system?

If you really want bragging rights, why don't you just run madstone elite instead of pop elite, and instead of running the reaver or doing scale runs on normal, run those on elite as well? If it were just for bragging rights, nothing is stopping you. Brag to the people that pop elite is for powerleveling your lowbies from levels 5-7. Capped toons of real uber players only run madstone elite.

[WestiesMA]

The leet need something where they can log on for six hours, not run a single quest and when they log off they feel they have accomplished something. Like crafting. Running quests is fine and dandy, but timesinks...something that makes the game seem real-life to those who are bored, is what we need.

What do mean by crafting? Collecting flowers and hides and string to make items? Isn't this what the dragonscale collectors are really doing? I do scale runs 3-4 times a week and I'm lucky if I get one scale out of it. At this rate it will be well past MOD 6 by the time I get enough scales for anything, assuming I can trade for all on color. If that is crafting, then it's not anything that I would want to sink time into.

[Jamz]

Now, you create a new setting that only a few can complete. If it is just for fun, for bragging rights, I can't see how it would offend anyone. However, if there is +1 loot associated with it, you have now created a level of treasure that a large portion of the player base would never have access to, and many would care. And for them that would be infuriating.

By definition, by design if you will, this new setting will cut off the vast majority of the players. If, in addition, the best loot will be found here, I can only imagine the response.

I to am enjoying the "friendly" debate

With that said, I'm sorry, but I just can't really buy into this logic personally. It already exists in my mind.

HardCore would be available to everyone. This is no different than a +1 loot weekend. Those same hardcore people got more loot in 2 days than other people have in 6 months. I certainly didn't hear anyone complain then and tell Turbine to cancel such events (well, maybe they did, I honestly don't read every thread)...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying people would complain: "I can't believe Turbine would give 120k items to only people who play hardcore, how about us "casual players???"

This already exists! The HardCore players are playing PoP until ransacked everyweek, they are doing the raids every three days, and they are buying and trading the best gear in the AH and on the forums. These SAME people would now have a chance to get slightly better gear now on HardCore (although at a great cost in gold buying scrolls, potions, etc).

The casual player may be still hoping to get his first paralyzer. You know what, if he put another 20 hrs a week into the game, he too could have the uber gear... But like in real life, what you get out of something is what you put into it.

Besides, the casual player has other benefits, like a TAN. He probably knows what his kids look like, and can laugh at the south park WoW episode because he knows that's not HIM!

I probably should preface this all btw that although I would love to play HardCore, it would be occasionally because I am such a casual player more or less (kinda in the middle). I've played the game since beta, and only recently (+1 loot weekend) have I gotten any "uber" gear. I play 5 Toons, only 2 are lvl 14, and i have 1 paralyzer, 1 vorpal, and 1 disruptor and have only obtained a total of 2 Raid items accross ALL my toons.

So, no, I'm not a HardCore player but I do play with them and truly think they want/need a challenge. And not a stupid challenge with no reward. (sure, go do Von5 naked, that's a challenge! meh...)

[Raithe]

This suggestion just makes me groan.

What are they going to do to make the content "hardcore?" Improve the AI? Wouldn't they do that if they could anyway?

Gimme a break. No one would run "hardcore" if there wasn't a bonus in loot or power (favor). If there is a bonus to loot or power it's just going to escalate the never ending treasure grind. Obscene statistics on mobs to counter the obscene "hardcore" loot to counter the slightly less obscene stats on "normal" elite mobs to counter the slightly less obscene loot on "normal" elite. So on and so forth.

This game needs to be about something other than loot.

I would suggest player interaction & competition, and role-playing.

[Dkmafia]

With the server merge coming, it can only mean one thing, less people are playing the game.

The biggest problem I hear is the lack of content. For the "casual" player this isn't a problem usually. It seems to be a problem for the Hard Core players.

Therefore, "Hardcore" content needs to be available, no? Adding a quest here and there has only kept the casual player happy. The hardcore player rips through those new quests, usually straight to elite, and have everything ransacked by weeks end, leaving them waiting a couple of months for new content to experience.

So here's a simple(?) idea. Add a new level difficulty: Hardcore. (So you now have Solo, Normal, Hard, Elite, Hardcore).

What is Hardcore? My thoughts were either the mobs go up another notch, or you keep it the same as Elite and remove Raise Dead/Resurrections. Maybe even remove all the shrines or at least remove the resurrection shrines. Maybe on death, you get booted or your stone get teleported to a jail cell.

Basically, HardCore tests your skills to the max to see if a party can complete the quest without any deaths.

The reward? Maybe +1 loot (at least +1 loot to end rewards). Maybe another level of favor, and a third tier of favor rewards that mean something to the HardCore player, something truly good and uber, considering your will have to do quite a number of quests without dieing...

This would instantly "add" a hundred new quests to play and at least a dozen or more at the end game.

Lets face it, the hard core player already rips through any quest out there. Why not add an "insanely difficult" level to the quests because frankly, elite is "meh".

Thoughts?

Elite should be - No recalling in/out EVER
Rez shrine can only be used once
Enemies have access to all our spells and abilities. I would love to see a hypno go off! Kill 99% of these paper fighters in one shot lol.

But ya I agree, I want a reason to fear death. Play as a team again. I miss those days

[Dkmafia]

Yes, this has been brought up several times. I think it is not a bad idea to consider, except, under NO circumstances should it come with higher level loot or favor, or anything. If so, it will simply become the NEW elite, the one setting everyone (but the most casual players) will be running.

I think a hardcore or insane setting for a handfull of quests (invaders, the pit, what have you) is a cool idea as long as it is for bragging rights or a sense of accomplishment only.

Why does everyone have a problem with a seemingly unsolvable difficulty? I didn't make you play a paper fighter, or a caster that has no idea how to cast anything buy PK/FoD - People knowingly make their char's gimped and then cry. I don't understand this. I was their for the whole "we have no mana" thing and I didnt understand it, even way back then I thought my caster was god like. Now they are unbelievable and people still screw them up.

We should get loot/favor/rewards etc because we earned them. We dont buy into the "AC doesn't matter" - "PK/FoD are actually useful spells" BS. We play with group dynamics and do whats best for the group. Group > you.

[Nymie_the_Pooh]

I could get behind the basic idea. I would like to see it fleshed out more. My understanding right now is that each time you up the difficulty the level of the dungeon and the level of the loot increases anyways. There would be no need to go +1 over the boost to the loot table. Besides, I have seen threads recently where people don't want loot weekends so there are likely some people that wouldn't want the boost to their loot.

The big problem right now is favour. They can either add more rewards and increase the cap, or the new difficulty could be favourless to start. I really think that if they do this then they need to do it in reverse of the level order they did the solo difficulties. In other words, the high end content and once it is proven to work then start working down from the high end.

Tighten up the idea. Really work out all the details, and then present it. The base idea is great, but with all the directions it can take from this point it is hard to really get behind. The core idea is a solid one.

[Dirac]

Why does everyone have a problem with a seemingly unsolvable difficulty? I didn't make you play a paper fighter, or a caster that has no idea how to cast anything buy PK/FoD - People knowingly make their char's gimped and then cry. I don't understand this. I was their for the whole "we have no mana" thing and I didnt understand it, even way back then I thought my caster was god like. Now they are unbelievable and people still screw them up.

We should get loot/favor/rewards etc because we earned them. We dont buy into the "AC doesn't matter" - "PK/FoD are actually useful spells" BS. We play with group dynamics and do whats best for the group. Group > you.

I'm not sure who you are referring to. You are quoting me, but not only do I not have a problem with a seemingly unsolvable difficulty I have been arguing in favor of it. Neither do any of your toon stereotypes apply to any of my characters.

Jamz, again you make a lot of sense, and if implemented perfectly, it could work. However, I think it would most likely turn into a disaster with top end chests not available to the majority of players which would cause huge problems.

Let me put the debate another way. Right now there are three difficulty settings: normal, hard, elite. However, these are just names describing three difficulty levels. They could be called levels 1, 2, and 3. The actual words do not provide accurate descriptions of the difficulty. Hard is not necessarily hard. Most importantly, elite is not "elite," as in "exclusive". The most casual players with static reward loot, perhaps who only play in groups of 3 and 4 may only be able to do quests at level on normal. However, the elite setting is available and doable by the vast majority of players in the game. It is also true that elite has +1 loot compared to hard. Thus, we have the current situation in the game where "elite" is a very common setting for the majority of players.

Let me bring up two other components of DDO: solo and pvp. These were both implemented to satisfy desires of a minority, but significant minority, of players in the game. Here is a part of the game designed exclusively for a fraction of the total player base. However, there is purposefully no additional power or extra loot that you attain by only by participating these components.

Now recognize what is being suggested here: a new level of quests, by design only for a fraction of the total player base, but it contains the best loot in the game (the +1 loot suggestion)! I think the majority of the playerbase will react severely negatively.

My claim is that not that an "insane" setting is a bad idea, I think it would be fun. My claim is that it is desired only by a fraction of the player base; in that regard it is similar to the solo option or pvp, and should be considered in that vein. It is natural to want to be rewarded for one's extra efforts just like people continually suggest they should receive extra rewards for solo accomplishments. No doubt those who specialize and excel at pvp would like to be rewarded specifically for having the strongest characters in the game. But if you are putting new, better rewards into the game, it just has to be available to the vast majority of players.

There is a dream of a pvp leaderboard, the type of "bragging rights" that would be the reward for participating. If you have an insane setting (by definition, a setting so hard, very few could ever do it), it has to be for the same reasons. It has to be only because you want to, or to say that you did it. To have special rewards not accessible to everyone else is a road to trouble.

[Dkmafia]

Actually I didnt mean to quote you .. I just always hit that button rather then the post .. Sorry

[Jamz]

Now recognize what is being suggested here: a new level of quests, by design only for a fraction of the total player base, but it contains the best loot in the game (the +1 loot suggestion)! I think the majority of the playerbase will react severely negatively.

My claim is that not that an "insane" setting is a bad idea, I think it would be fun. My claim is that it is desired only by a fraction of the player base; in that regard it is similar to the solo option or pvp, and should be considered in that vein. It is natural to want to be rewarded for one's extra efforts just like people continually suggest they should receive extra rewards for solo accomplishments. No doubt those who specialize and excel at pvp would like to be rewarded specifically for having the strongest characters in the game. But if you are putting new, better rewards into the game, it just has to be available to the vast majority of players.

I suppose it does only broaden the gap and I suppose I jumped to the +1 loot reward because it's easy and frankly DDO doesn't have much else in the area of rewards?

With that said, anyone have any good ideas on a reward for HardCore? Lets just assume that without a reward (bragging rights don't count as a "reward"), no one will play HardCore. So within the realm of what's currently possible in DDO with little coding from the devs, what would be a decent "Reward"?

How about instead of +1 loot, maybe a better "selection"? Like maybe you can choose Bastard Swords, or Scepter, or Long Bow, etc, and the game generates 5 or so rewards of that type? It would be the same GP value as elite but you have a better chance of getting something you can use?

I know someone else said the game needs to be about something other than loot, but frankly, that's like saying life is more than about money. Yes, we enjoy other things in life/ddo, but the "core" thing that drives us is money/loot.

The only other reward would be to "unlock" enhancements or something but if the enhancement is that cool, its probably going to be unbalancing...

Any other "reward" ideas?

[Uska]

Blah!

New quests or difficulties are not the issue.

The issue is there are no timesinks. There is no crafting, nothing for people to do to just waste time.

We have running favor, loot and XP. They all involve running quests. Quests which the 'leet' have ran countless times already.

The amount of quests, the amount of loot, the levels we have - none of these are the problem.

The leet need something where they can log on for six hours, not run a single quest and when they log off they feel they have accomplished something. Like crafting. Running quests is fine and dandy, but timesinks...something that makes the game seem real-life to those who are bored, is what we need.

Yeah on swg enjoy crafting a bit even more enjoyed going out and getting resources with my ranger or other characters for the crafters was fun and was getting exp or anything like that most of the time but was doing something. heck even fishing was fun sometimes or using entertainer skills like you said some kind of time sink would be great.

[Silverblade-T-E]

Terrible idea.
Instead MAKE MORE **** CONTENT, TURBINE, FFS!

see, that's the key issue here: CONTENT, not LOOT.
Sorry "fanbois", the server populations were tumbling, because folk are fed up with too little content and MONTY HAUL.

Ugh, sorry to burst the "MTV generation's" bubble, but "phat lewt" does not = "fun".

Pulling vorpals out of your proverbial ass, all over the place, is so asininely dumb, that many folk who love D&D left the game.

Turbine does fantastic fun dungeons, the basic game engine rocks. But the excess loot and ludicrously poor amount of content added per month, has ALWAYS driven folk away.

Server mergers = "I TOLD YOU SO, DIDN'T I!"

[AloneOnTheRange]

What about the ones that want to take on the quests alone? Or with only a party of 2?

That makes the quests a few notches higher. But the exp given out doesn't reflect the harder challange.

Can anyone explain how the quest level relates to the player level? Does it have any similiarity to the PnP book game with the CR? Only there, I thought it was a 4 char party. Is it now a 6 char party?

Also, why does the game give 0 exp if there is only a level 1 with a level 6, in a level 2 quest? Lets see, average level of char using a 4 party standard is 7/4 rounded up equals 2, which equals the level 2 quest. Somethings got to be done to fix that bug.