Kill the swing buffer

[Plynx]

Man, this sure is annoying. You're shooting something with your bow. You press your hotkey to switch to melee or whatever. But whoosh, another shot has to go off first, because it's in the queue. Now does it switch weapons? No! That keystroke was lost. Now when you attack, what do you get? ANOTHER bow shot and probably yet another one in the queue! It's not just bows that are affected--it's just easier to explain using that example, and everyone's probably faced it.

I think I understand why this "swing buffer" is in the game. You don't want us to have to time swings precisely or have delays in our attack sequence. But this problem has a simple solution: when someone switches weapons (or perhaps activates any hotbar command)--just kill the swing buffer! Lose that "next queued attack," finish the CURRENT animation only, then execute the command.

DDO offers an active style of combat that is very appealing. But this swing buffer thing is a great nuisance that hurts that style of play.

[Ziggy]

Man, this sure is annoying. You're shooting something with your bow. You press your hotkey to switch to melee or whatever. But whoosh, another shot has to go off first, because it's in the queue. Now does it switch weapons? No! That keystroke was lost. Now when you attack, what do you get? ANOTHER bow shot and probably yet another one in the queue! It's not just bows that are affected--it's just easier to explain using that example, and everyone's probably faced it.

I think I understand why this "swing buffer" is in the game. You don't want us to have to time swings precisely or have delays in our attack sequence. But this problem has a simple solution: when someone switches weapons (or perhaps activates any hotbar command)--just kill the swing buffer! Lose that "next queued attack," finish the CURRENT animation only, then execute the command.

DDO offers an active style of combat that is very appealing. But this swing buffer thing is a great nuisance that hurts that style of play.

This sounds like the fast swing exploit.

[Plynx]

This sounds like the fast swing exploit.

No idea where you got this--are you talking about how it was before when you could switch weapons mid attack sequence? There's a built-in delay AFTER switching weapons (reduced by the Quick Draw feat) that deals with that.

I'd really rather the issue not get confused. DDO has a one-action buffer built in to all actions. Try it with, say, tumble. hold down block and double tap "s" and you'll tumble backwards twice. Now that's fine--I guess--it's a bit aggressive and makes it likely you end up with one tumble too many in the heat of combat--but anyway. What I'm saying is that when the buffered action is an attack swing--and you press just about any other action--that buffered attack swing should make way for the other action instead. Because you're really likely to have an attack swing in the buffer and it makes it really difficult to perform active combat actions. Simple example I gave: switching from ranged to melee.

[Ithrani]

No idea where you got this--are you talking about how it was before when you could switch weapons mid attack sequence? There's a built-in delay AFTER switching weapons (reduced by the Quick Draw feat) that deals with that.

I'd really rather the issue not get confused. DDO has a one-action buffer built in to all actions. Try it with, say, tumble. hold down block and double tap "s" and you'll tumble backwards twice. Now that's fine--I guess--it's a bit aggressive and makes it likely you end up with one tumble too many in the heat of combat--but anyway. What I'm saying is that when the buffered action is an attack swing--and you press just about any other action--that buffered attack swing should make way for the other action instead. Because you're really likely to have an attack swing in the buffer and it makes it really difficult to perform active combat actions. Simple example I gave: switching from ranged to melee.

What he means is, there once was a bug that allowed you to swing your first attack, hit the key for your weapon and swing again, over and over and over far far faster then actually running your whole sequence. When your a high level tank I don't think this is a smart choice with the backwards progression, but as a lowbie or even mid level rogue, you would be attacking far more often then the DEVS really intend for. I do agree though that since they fixed that bug nothing changes well, even weapons sets take forever to switch, and quick draw doesn't help much, but anything is better then nothing. The DEVS need to speed up quick draw, and find a middle ground from that change rate to the normal change rate now. If anything make the weapon switch faster and take away the ability to attack for a second afterwards.

Trips, Sunder and the other attack options should be looked at as well. While attacking I try to plan my trip and sunders to be my last few attacks but because I am in mid swing I cannot activate the key, I think that the second I hit that key it should override the action queue to make that action the next one to happen, instead of me spamming my 0 and 1 key until it gets timed well. Sure I could time it but again that slows down the attack sequence to a crawl so whats the point of even making the choice; the fights over before I can trip, the spell the mob was casting went off, our caster failed his finger of death save so he is dead and my trip would have saved the caster, but I took to long trying to time the trip jusssst right so I did not end up in a spam session with my mouse button and 1 key.

I know it's not PnP blah blah blah.... Quite for a second flamers. In PnP if I decide to make a trip or sunder, it happens, I don't have to say to the DM I trip, I trip, hey hey hey I trip, I TRIPPPPP, IIIII TTTTTTRRRRIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPP!!!!!! To get him to say oh ok this next attack is a trip attempt.

[Istivan]

I just click it again and the weapon changes, or is clicking more than once too tough for some people?

[Plynx]

I just click it again and the weapon changes, or is clicking more than once too tough for some people?

I know this is supposed to be a clever little comment, but--no? Click it again and the weapon will not change.

If you take out a bow and double click... your character will shoot two full animations' worth of shots. You can't change that. That second click is in the buffer and nothing gets rid of it.

[Plynx]

What he means is, there once was a bug that allowed you to swing your first attack, hit the key for your weapon and swing again, over and over and over far far faster then actually running your whole sequence.

Oh, so it reset your attack sequence. I get it now.

Letting us cancel a pending swing wouldn't lead to that kind of exploit, thankfully. All the various controls on weapon switching, including the Quick Draw feat, would still be there.

How about I approach it a different way and give a different example--weapon switching seems to make people think of other things.

You're in combat. You want to activate an action boost--maybe haste boost, or damage reduction boost. You press the button and nothing happens. You know you need to let a swing go by so that you can put the action boost in the buffer. Then you want to start swinging again as soon as possible! But you have no way of knowing if the action boost went into the buffer or if it was blocked by a pending swing. Once you start swinging again only to find that the action boost was lost--you have to wait for the buffer to clear out AGAIN.

The same is true for clickies, spells, what have you. The buffering of one action is cool in the sense that it lets you chain actions together with no lost time in between them. It's not cool in that a frequently pressed action, like attack, jams up and loses an infrequent but more important action--like a boost or a weapon switch. And overall it hurts the feel of the combat system.

[Neferi]

THANK YOU! I'm so glad someone addressed this problem. It's extremely annoying and really takes away from the otherwise awesome interactive combat. I have the quick draw feat myself, because I think that switching to the best weapon for the enemy I'm fighting is the most valuable thing I can do. I like to start off a fight, for example, by shooting something with my paralyzer at range, and then switch out to a two-hander and run in to attack. The problem is that due to lag, and this really stupid buffer, it's not a reliable thing to do, and it really takes away from the fun of even having quick draw, or switching out weapons at all.

I don't know how other people fight, but when I go to attack something, I tend to push my mouse button as fast as possible. I don't really time my attacks, and honestly I don't want to, it would be extremely tedious. I certainly don't care to do any "exploits". I only want to make sure that I don't miss any attacks, because if I DON'T push the mouse button quickly, a lot of times lag will cause a break in the attack sequence. Obviously this is a waste of time when I could be dealing damage, so I just go for the speed. The problem is that when I want to switch out to another weapon, I have to lay off the mouse, and start jamming down on the key binding for the new weapon until I see it switch. This means a huge delay in attacking, and it really throws off my rhythm.

What I would like is just what the OP suggested: when you press a hotkey, whatever it is, it should cancel your pending attacks immediately, finish the animation, and leave you able to switch weapons without worrying about any extra mouse clicks. This should work for all the things you can hotkey, including abilities like the fighter haste boost, which at this moment require the player to stop attacking before it can be activated! This makes no sense, especially since you're likely to want to activate the haste boost right at the start of a fight, not while you're still running in, so as to get the most benefit from it.

Aside from this annoying issue, the combat is fantastic and involved, and I enjoy it very much. BECAUSE I think so highly of it, I support this suggestion whole-heartedly and hope something can be done about it. I also wish that certain people would take the time to understand the problem before posting comments that are unhelpful and uninformed.

[Plynx]

Here's what I'm proposing in a nutshell.

Tier 1: Attacks, blocks, shield bashes, and tumbles
Tier 2: Clickies, action boosts, weapon switches, trips, sunder, and everything else

When you press an action, if the buffered action is in tier 1, drop the buffered action in favor of buffering the new action.

If the buffered action is in tier 2, ignore the new action.


This would let more important actions take precedence over less important ones--and also let key reactive combat abilities like tumble and block function closer to when you press them, instead of more than 1 full animation away from when they are pressed.

You won't get the feeling of unresponsiveness from your actions while in combat that you do now. You won't get caught with that extra tumble in the buffer that you didn't want or need, you can interrupt it with an attack. you could press your key strategic abilities and know that they will go off on the next swing, not 2 swings from now. And your actions won't be just lost, demanding that you jam on the key until you see some feedback that it was accepted.

I'm not kidding, it really would add -- a lot -- to the feel of the combat system. It would make it much more of a joy to play, feeling like you have control and not just making "suggestions" to your character that may or may not be ignored, so you have to keep making them!

[Istivan]

I don't know how other people fight, but when I go to attack something, I tend to push my mouse button as fast as possible. I don't really time my attacks, and honestly I don't want to, it would be extremely tedious. I certainly don't care to do any "exploits". I only want to make sure that I don't miss any attacks, because if I DON'T push the mouse button quickly, a lot of times lag will cause a break in the attack sequence. Obviously this is a waste of time when I could be dealing damage, so I just go for the speed. The problem is that when I want to switch out to another weapon, I have to lay off the mouse, and start jamming down on the key binding for the new weapon until I see it switch. This means a huge delay in attacking, and it really throws off my rhythm.

So what this person is saying is that if it doesn't work they just click it again and it does.......

Not saying your way does not make sense, but sometimes there is an easy remedy.

[Ithrani]

So what this person is saying is that if it doesn't work they just click it again and it does.......

Not saying your way does not make sense, but sometimes there is an easy remedy.

Not just click it again, click it over and over again until you see the change. I have hit (with quickdraw) my weapon set 5 times over while attacking to switch. I led off with my destruction and go to switch to my DPS weapon and I click once, still attacking with my destruction weapon, click again immediately after, still destruction, continue spam clicking and finally see a change after quite a few attacks go by. Or Attack once, stop, click hotkey, weapon changes (takes a sec), begin to swing. The latter is extremely slow, and if I try to do it in mid attack sequence I have to stop and wait so much longer before clicking the mouse again. Worst part is auto-attack does not help this at all because I have to spam even more with that on.

[Hence]

You guys are using Auto-Attack right? That is the problem.
The Auto-Attack function is very annoying, because you are right... it queues extra attacks so you cannot time a weapon switch or use an action boost.

When using manual attack, what you click is what happens, click once fire one arrow, click weapon switch weapon switches. But, if you click twice, sure enough both attacks are queued, and you cannot change the order of the action except with tumble. Tumble is the only thing that interrupts an attack sequence, but that defeats the purpose... I know.

[Istivan]

so am I getting this right, he (Hence) just said he clicks again and it works?

[Plynx]

You guys are using Auto-Attack right? That is the problem.

No, not using auto-attack.

[Plynx]

so am I getting this right, he (Hence) just said he clicks again and it works?

No... lol...

Look, if you click to attack, then queue another attack--the computer stops listening to you until the first attack animation completely finishes. THEN it performs the next attack action that was queued. Now it will listen for another key, but whatever you told it to do won't happen until after THAT animation completely finishes.

So you could press it 2 times or 100 times, but it won't care until the animation is finished, and even then your action won't happen right away. If pressing it just one more time works for you, then you must be pressing the keys slowly...

What most players do is stop all action and keep pressing the important key until it goes off. But even that doesn't solve the problem, it just helps make sure the action isn't completely lost. It's still delayed, and adds further delay on top of that after watching to see if the action "took".

[Istivan]

ok Plynx, sorry to be a pest.

My son used to play with me and he had a fighter warforged and I was a mage so he could stay healed.

Anyway, he used to click so fast it was all I would hear during combat was his infernal clicking, he too had your problem. Once he slowed down he had better control over the things he wanted to do during combat. Perhaps this is your same problem, and maybe not.

I do like the idea you present, does make sense to have some things interrupt a queue as they now gain importance. But until they do this for us, perhaps just slow down a bit and you might get better control over your characters actions.

Or just click again.

[Neferi]

No, I'm not using auto attack either

I just want to say again that I love the interactive combat system. I love being able to switch out to different weapons and use whatever is best for the particular monster. There's just this one little change that could be made to make it all so much better. The OP's suggestions on prioritizing the different actions make a lot of sense and would really improve combat. I hope they get taken into consideration.

[Ithrani]

You guys are using Auto-Attack right? That is the problem.
The Auto-Attack function is very annoying, because you are right... it queues extra attacks so you cannot time a weapon switch or use an action boost.

When using manual attack, what you click is what happens, click once fire one arrow, click weapon switch weapon switches. But, if you click twice, sure enough both attacks are queued, and you cannot change the order of the action except with tumble. Tumble is the only thing that interrupts an attack sequence, but that defeats the purpose... I know.

The only person to mention auto-attack was me, and I mentioned it briefly in a single sentence at the end of my point to extend upon it and you somehow mistook that for everyone in the thread using auto-attack and complaining about activating hotkeys in mid swing. Interesting, did you read any of the post or just my last sentence.

[dormetheus]

Just remove the attack queu please! I complained about this on day 1, and no one really seems to understand what this is about.

Click the attack button twice in a row. After your first swing, try to block. Too bad, you got crushed trying to block because you are still on your second swing.

[Hvymetal]

I get the same problem, nothing like switching from muckbanes to Rapier/Shortsword combo just to see myself starting to beat on those renders with my muckbanes, ahh well at least I still get sneak attack dmg on em