Mod5, Lich, and Godhood.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Alright, so according to the splash screen (http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/risiasplash.jpg) the Black Abbot (a lich) is going to become a god. Now, is he really going to become a god? Or just a being with god-like powers, in other words a rakshasa rajah (which are not rakshasa, btw). I suppose Turbine can do whatever they want, but I got some input from Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, and what he said is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13066649 You'll have to read it for yourself, too much info to summarize or copy over here.
I'm glad I got a response from him, even though I'm nobody special. Now, I'd really appreciate Dev input. I hope what I'm asking is not a spoiler- I don't see how it could be anymore than what we've already seen. Also, any Eberron fanatics have any ideas?

[KaKa]

Really interesting discussion. Does make you wonder if attaining god-hood is possible in eberron. For me I hope the Lich does not really attain official god-hood because really should lvl 14 characters be fighting and hopeing to defeat a god?

But I wouldn't be surprised if we did fight a god looking at the current raid progression.
LvL 10: Dragon
LvL 12: Demon
LvL 14: God?

What the hell would we fight at lvl 16? 18? 20? at this rate lvl 16 will be a Dealkyr.

[MysticTheurge]

I'm going to have to slightly disagree with Keith Baker's assessment (which is a big deal for me, honestly).

The fact is, there are both beings of godly power (as he points out) and beings who are worshiped as gods on the level of the Sovereign Host (though perhaps by not quite as many people) walking around Eberron (or at least trapped somewhere beneath the surface).

I see no reason you couldn't combine the Godly power of a Rakshasa Rajah with the "godness" of the Undying Court or the Lord of Blades.

Now, you might argue that the Undying Court isn't a person, so much as a concept, and that the Lord of Blades the person (err warforged) isn't a God so much as the concept he represents is. But the same stuff applies here.

It seems to me that the attachment to Godly Detachment makes for some strange mental gymnastics. In fact, as a cleric can draw power from pretty much anything in Eberron, provided they have the faith in it, the concept of what makes up a God is rather more fluid than in other settings.

The line between "God" and "Being of God-like power belief in whom may grant spells" seems to merely be one of whether the creature in question is "real" and tangible or not. To me, it seems like more a question of semantics than anything else. Why isn't a "Being of god-like power who's worshipped, 'grants' spells and so forth" a "god"?

(And this is, of course, barring application of the D&D rules on Divine Rank and such which readily clarify the question of what's a "god" and what isn't.)

That said, it also seems pretty clear that, at 14-16th level, there's just no way the Black Abbot could possibly be achieving Godhood or even "God-like Power" in this quest. At that point, it becomes a story element and need no more be explained by actual rules than any other doomsday device. "Can you really open a portal to Fernia that would then engulf all of Eberron in lava and flames?" It doesn't really matter whether the planes and gates work that way or not, it's good for your story for it to be possible and so the PCs have to prevent it from happening.

[Drider]

I'm sure it's basically coming down to stopping him before he reaches his ultimate power. The raid would probably involve stopping him from completing some ritual.

[KristovK]

I'm sure it's basically coming down to stopping him before he reaches his ultimate power. The raid would probably involve stopping him from completing some ritual.

Which sounds oddly familiar...deja vu? Oh..no..it IS familair! Reaver's Fate anyone? Have to stop the Stormreaver from destroying the entire land of Xen'drik, remember?

So we get to stop some deranged dead bad guy in his attempt to transcend mortality totally and become a god or something...good storyline, and it's something that's been in the works for some time according to the storyline of the quests so far...or did people miss that? If we fail in the raid, will he actually BECOME a god and destroy us all? Of course not, we'll just die and have to restart the raid, same as we do in Reaver's Fate.

Seriously...some of you take the game a little TOO seriously at times...bugging Mr Baker about this? Come on man...take a break...you need it.

[Vinos]

God or not we'll be farming him for loot in less than a week.

[MysticTheurge]

Seriously...some of you take the game a little TOO seriously at times...bugging Mr Baker about this? Come on man...take a break...you need it.

Uh. He posted a valid (and interesting) question on the WotC boards. Keith Baker chose to respond (which he does a lot, which is pretty cool of him). I don't see how there was anything "too serious" or even any "bugging" involved.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Uh. He posted a valid (and interesting) question on the WotC boards. Keith Baker chose to respond (which he does a lot, which is pretty cool of him). I don't see how there was anything "too serious" or even any "bugging" involved.

Yep. I did not solicit Keith Baker in any way, other than mentioning his name in the post. It did cross my mind to PM him, but I decided that he probably gets bugged too much and it wasn't worth it at all.
Thanks for the replies, though. I guess we'll find out what's really happening when we get to play it,

[Sobriquet]

God or not we'll be farming him for loot in less than a week.

QFT/QFE

So true, so sadly true.

[KristovK]

Uh. He posted a valid (and interesting) question on the WotC boards. Keith Baker chose to respond (which he does a lot, which is pretty cool of him). I don't see how there was anything "too serious" or even any "bugging" involved.

I guess my issue with the OP and his post on WoTC was the entire questioning about godhood and implying Turbine was breaking the rules somehow. Since I've not seen anyone bringing similiar questions and accusations on the WoTC boards about the OTHER raids, it annoyed me. Especially given that this is for a storyline that's been ingame since last summer and hasn't been changed, we've known since the beginning that attaining godhood was the Black Abbot's goal. Now, suddenly, since the OP has seen the splashscreen on Risia, he wonders about this subject? What..it wasn't 'real' before that? What...he's never DONE the quest line or actually bothered to READ the storyline for it?

No one has asked about this storyline SINCE THIS LINE WAS ADDED LAST SUMMER. You say it was a valid and interesting question MT, but you never posed it, here or on the WoTC forums...no one did.

And yes MT, the post on the WoTC forums is rather serious in nature, implying that Turbine is breaking rules, ignoring WotC and the established canon and so on. And he did specifically ask if Hellcow has any say in DDO..silly question since it's been established that Mr Baker has nothing to do with DDO and never did outside of some short fiction written for promotional reasons, but definately implying that Turbine is doing things 'wrong'.

Again...been almost a year since this storyline was introduced and it's not been changed in that time. Why don't I see any posts by the OP concerning the Stormreaver trying to destroy the entire land of Xen'drik? Or did he miss that splashscreen..oh...wait..there wasn't a splashscreen for that! I begin to see...the OP doesn't actually KNOW the quest line, he doesn't know the storyline, he only knows what he's seen on a splashscreen! Interesting...should probably get off Risia and onto an active live server and play the game sometime, you'd be amazed at all the things going on on Xen'drik, probably have pages of questions for the folks at WoTC.

[Ziggy]

Well according to the release notes for LoTD part 1.

The abbot serving as the leader of this group had great aspirations and sought to usurp Vol's place and become a godlike being himself.

So hes not trying ot become a "NEW" god. Hes trying to unsurp an "OLD" god.

so it fits what keith baker said.

Also explains why it took Several Centuries

[Gimpster]

So hes not trying ot become a "NEW" god. Hes trying to unsurp an "OLD" god.

Vol is not a god either.

Both the Black Abbot and Erandis Vol are ancient liches, which means their personal power levels could be quite similar (of course, one could have a much higher caster level than the other, but there's no way for us to know that)

[Ziggy]

Vol is not a god either.

Both the Black Abbot and Erandis Vol are ancient liches, which means their personal power levels could be quite similar (of course, one could have a much higher caster level than the other, but there's no way for us to know that)

Ah well i didnt know that.

Ok so technically then... maybe its a "typo"

Thanks for the correction gimpster.

Maybe thats the difference though, why noone asked about it before. It said "god-like" not "god"?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Well, heck, I never saw anything about him becoming a god before. All I knew was whatever he was doing was serious enough to get the Silver Flame and the Emerald Claw working together. And if he's trying to replace a god, well then that can fit in with what Keith Baker said, more or less.
I had no idea whether or not Mr. Baker had any input at all into DDO, part of the reason why I asked. Now I know.
The splashscreen got me wondering. I went and asked somewhere where I knew there were a lot of people well versed in Eberron, and where the creator himself could have a chance to see and answer, which I thought pretty unlikely I'd get a response from him. Turbine's the DM here, and they can do whatever they want- it's just that the creation of a new god goes against everything I knew about Eberron so far. I had to ask about it. I did ask about it some on these forums, in the thread about the splash screen, but there wasn't much response.

My thoughts seem jumbled now, but I hope that makes sense. And KristovK, I really hope you're not trying to start an argument, because that's the tone I get from your post.
Is there anything wrong with asking questions?


Oh, it'll be over a month til he get to farm him. Give me time to actually get into the reaver first. Hehe.

[MysticTheurge]

You say it was a valid and interesting question MT, but you never posed it, here or on the WoTC forums...no one did.

I posted my take on the whole concept earlier in this thread, a take with which I'm entirely satisfied but it doesn't make the question any less a valid one.

And yes MT, the post on the WoTC forums is rather serious in nature, implying that Turbine is breaking rules, ignoring WotC and the established canon and so on.

If the poster thinks that the storyline is violating established cannon then he can ask. Perhaps he implies that Turbine has gone counter to written materials with this plot, so what? It's an academic debate on the nature of Godhood in Eberron.

I don't see him going "OMFG!!! YOU WONT BELIEVE WHAT TURBINEZ DONE NOWZOR!!!"

And he did specifically ask if Hellcow has any say in DDO..silly question since it's been established that Mr Baker has nothing to do with DDO and never did outside of some short fiction written for promotional reasons, but definately implying that Turbine is doing things 'wrong'.

Jeez. This is remarkable judgmental and snobby even for an online message board.

It's not exactly posted everywhere that Keith Baker has nothing to do with DDO. What the **** is the harm in asking?

Perhaps we should run all our questions by you before we ask them to make sure they're not "silly."

Why don't I see any posts by the OP concerning the Stormreaver trying to destroy the entire land of Xen'drik?

The Stormreaver wasn't, for the record, trying to destroy Xen'drik. The Stormreaver was attempting to return to power, and if he succeeded then it was likely that the Dragons would rain down their wrath upon Xen'drik most certainly wiping out anything remotely like civilization and perhaps even finally and utterly breaking the land itself.

This is all entirely consistent with what's been previously written (except, perhaps, for a little of the Stormreaver's ancient history, which I've wondered about out loud before).

should probably get off Risia and onto an active live server and play the game sometime, you'd be amazed at all the things going on on Xen'drik, probably have pages of questions for the folks at WoTC.

Wow. Just wow.

[Gimpster]

The Stormreaver wasn't, for the record, trying to destroy Xen'drik. The Stormreaver was attempting to return to power

Actually, he assembled and triggered a doomsday device of unknown power, which quite possibly could've been on the magnitude of "destroy Xen'drik" all by itself.

His motivation for doing that is totally unclear, and may range from complete insanity to Quori mindcontrol or a misguided attempt at extortion.

It's a big stretch to claim any knowledge about what he was doing, or trying to do.

[MysticTheurge]

It's a big stretch to claim any knowledge about what he was doing, or trying to do.

Ah yes, perhaps that's more accurate.

There's nothing anywhere to indicate that he was attempting to destroy Xen'drik. The only things that are explicitly stated are his attempt to return to power, raise the dragons from the eggs in his possession and gather legions of followers.

The threat of a destroyed Xen'drik, as mentioned in the lore and in-game descriptions, comes from the Dragons.

[Gimpster]

The threat of a destroyed Xen'drik, as mentioned in the lore and in-game descriptions, comes from the Dragons.

What. Have. I. Done. Time is short. It Must be Disarmed

New objective: [] Disable the Stormreaver's doomsday device. (required)

[KristovK]

Anyone who's done the actual Reaver's Fate can tell you, the Stormreaver is under a mental compulsion of some sort(the Quori) and is about to blow up Xen'drik..not a little piece of it, but the entire continent. You have to beat on him until he regains his mind and then says what Gimp posted, at which point the quest objectives get updated and you have to go solve the puzzle. Do it and you save Xen'drik...fail and everyone dies...course, being this is DDO and nothing in any quest has any effect what-so-ever on the game world per se, only the people inside the raid die. I've done it successfully well over 15 times now and that is indeed what it tells you, Xen'drik is about to go POOF.

As for my comments about the OP and his post on the WoTC forums...well..please review his posts in the Risia section concerning this very subject, made 2 days before his WoTC post. Oddly enough, he does indeed confirm that there ARE gods in the Eberron setting, just that they don't do anything that anyone can confirm. 2 days later he's worried about a new god coming into being, worried that this is somehow against canon and that Turbine is not getting things vetted by WoTC(read his WoTC post again, it's not exactly vague in it's statements). Again, that post annoys me, it's a clear but nicely worded statement that Turbine is going against canon and asking that WoTC step in and do something. As you well know MT, one doesn't need to call a spade a spade in simple language to say it.

We've known since LoTD was on Risia for testing that the Black Abbot is attempting to become a god, been almost a year now, so it's NOT news and no one, as I pointed out, including yourself MT, ever brought up any issues with the storyline...not one single person until a few days ago.

[MysticTheurge]

We've known since LoTD was on Risia for testing that the Black Abbot is attempting to become a god, been almost a year now, so it's NOT news and no one, as I pointed out, including yourself MT, ever brought up any issues with the storyline...not one single person until a few days ago.

And again. I didn't realize there was a statute of limitations on asking questions or discussing things.