sorcerer spells

[Daddy]

think known spells will ever catch up to pnp for sorcerers?

at lvl 14 a sorcerer in pnp would like like this.

1st 6
2nd 6
3rd 6
4th 6
5th 6
6th 5
7th 3

i'm sure the cap at 4 spells per lvl is for a reason...i just cant think of a reason why it is.


i can't be the only person that's noticed this.

[Gimpster]

at lvl 14 a sorcerer in pnp would like like this.
1st 6
2nd 6
3rd 6
4th 6
5th 6
6th 5
7th 3

Wrong. A PnP sorceror at level 14 has
1st 5
2nd 5
3rd 4
4th 4
5th 3
6th 2
7th 1
The numbers you gave are his spell slots (aka mana), not his spells known.

i'm sure the cap at 4 spells per lvl is for a reason...i just cant think of a reason why it is.

Yes. It's because the DDO game has a more limited possible set of environments and encounter types than can occur in the original D&D. This means a spellcaster does not need to deal with as many different situations, so he doesn't need as many different spells. The sorceror class is supposed to have a meaningful restriction to power based on his limited list of spells, but DDO has fewer spells which are actually useful.

Thus, a reduced number of spells per level.

Look at the 3rd level spells, for example. In PnP, there are super-useful spells like Fly, GMW, Blink, Major Image, Gaseous Form, Clairvoyance, Phantom Steed, and even Tongues. A PnP wizard can memorize those spells when needed, but a sorc would be hard pressed to fit some of those into just 4 slots. But in DDO you're basically all set if you have Haste, Fireball, and Displacement. Having a bigger list of spells known would not be as beneficial.

[Shade]

Yea but wizards get 5 slotsin ddo?
Why can't sorcerers?
I mean basicly 5 spells for a wizard is enough to get everyone u need every quest.. Sorcerer u still gota chose good all around ones, just get 1 more to play with.

Not a big deal to me, i think sorcs/wiz are fairly well balanced. But i dont think a couple more low lvl spells will unbalance anything. It would just give more sorcs like tumble and maybe blur or knock, situational spells thats wont make or break anyone.

Because even with that, wizards would still have way more spells (all of them vs some), and more spell slots (i think 5 more vs 7 more atm), and ofcourse other wizard perks like more feats.

[pcgammerm]

Because even with that, wizards would still have way more spells (all of them vs some), and more spell slots (i think 5 more vs 7 more atm), and ofcourse other wizard perks like more feats.

thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

[Missing_Minds]

thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

Now there is a load of absolute cr@p right there. I could spout off the entire comparison AGAIN, but I really don't feel like it. If sorcs were actually given their fifth 1st and 2nd lvl spells, It would be all good. Are you saying that giving sorcs the correct number of spells would be over powering them? A 1st and 2nd lvl spell? *snicker*

[Sokar6000]

thats the point, wizards are short changed already with sorcs getting a lot more sp. so why not give them all the extra stuff (not that i use all the spells my wiz has, most just aren't worth spitting at)

Please do not tell lies, that is how rumors get started. Anyone with half a brain knows that Wizards in DDO are completely overpowered compared to sorcerers.

I think the least Turbine could do is give us the rest of our spells.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Please do not tell lies, that is how rumors get started. Anyone with half a brain knows that Wizards in DDO are completely overpowered compared to sorcerers.

I think the least Turbine could do is give us the rest of our spells.

WOW, dude you are so totally off base. Its cannot be a LIE as its an OPINION. People need to chill the f out. You dont think sorcs are over powered he does GET OVER IT.


I see WHY sorcs get less per lvl. Some people dont agree with the reason.

IE, if they can cast more TIMES per day and if can have more SPELL SLOTS than a wiz added on top of the more casts, then why would anyone ever play a wiz... EVER.


Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.

edit: and before you bring up, "well thats the way it is in PNP!!!!! OMG!!!!!" please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER, so there is a valid reason for being a wiz other than the meta feats.

[GeneralDiomedes]

It's not about keeping Sorcerers from being 'overpowered' it's about having reasons to play a Wizard.

[Sokar6000]

please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER...

Wow. Now is an even more perfect time for the line about lies. :P Thanks for that.

Please check the rules, then come back and argue with me. I'll be waiting.

[Missing_Minds]

Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.

edit: and before you bring up, "well thats the way it is in PNP!!!!! OMG!!!!!" please remember that in PNP sorcs cannot switch AT ALL EVER, so there is a valid reason for being a wiz other than the meta feats.

Wow.. someone needs to read PnP rules again. So make it back to where sorcs can switch every even level starting at caster lvl 4. I'd be fine with that. That IS by the rules.

And when that happens, I also want wizards STRIPPED completely of all EXTRA spells they were given for a half baked over powering option of school specialization. (that means the max number of spells they can know of any level is 4.)

As for the answer about there not being enough spells, that was stated several months ago. Go count the number of 1st and 2nd lvl spells now. Trying to use that answer now is a complete cop out stating "we are to lazy to make changes to balance characters.". Heck, for that matter, if there were not enough spells back then, why give wizards five spell slots any way?

[Gimpster]

As for the answer about there not being enough spells, that was stated several months ago. Go count the number of 1st and 2nd lvl spells now.

Exactly the same.

There has not been ANY new 1st or 2nd level spell in those many months. Next week, there may be one new 1st level spell...

[Aspenor]

Faster casting times and almost 1.5 times the mana more than makes up for a couple spell slots.

If they were to give sorcerors a 5th slot at first level, the corresponding balance would be to give wizards a 6th. Do you see where I'm coming from??

Wizards are built for versatility, with more options available. Sorcerors are not meant to be versatile, they are meant to be powerhouses. They do what they do and they do it great. Wizards can tailor their spells to fit the occasion.

Complaining you dont have as many spell slots as PnP is pointless. By taking away spells/day and making mana, spell slots had to be rebalanced.

[Missing_Minds]

*sighs* Asp, do you have any casters? Because it is sounding like you don't and you just jumped on the bandwagon with a lot of other people.

Gimp, go count the spells as listed in the compendium. I have.
22 1st lvl spells.
28 2nd lvl spells.

And the excuse is "there isn't enough spells." Obviously, there isn't enough plat in the market either.

[Aspenor]

*sighs* Asp, do you have any casters? Because it is sounding like you don't and you just jumped on the bandwagon with a lot of other people.

Gimp, go count the spells as listed in the compendium. I have.
22 1st lvl spells.
28 2nd lvl spells.

And the excuse is "there isn't enough spells." The obviously, there isn't enough plat in the market either.

You make me laugh. I have 3 spell casters, and I have played 4

Do you even play a wizard?

What you are asking for is basically just "WAHH I WANT ANOTHER SLOT!! GIME GIMME GIMME!! MORE MORE MORE!!"

It's not gonna happen.

[Aspenor]

Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

[Missing_Minds]

Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

I only grease with my bard, as at least I can also toss out freedom of movement to keep from getting lynched. I just wish the NPCs were slowed down by it as well. I will fully agree that there are not a lot of useful first lvl spells out there, but there are a lot of useful 2nd level spells. Also, usefulness was never in contention in the dev statement. The original dev statement was all about number.

And in answer to your question, I've got 14th lvl Wiz, 10 lvl sorc (muled because I was playing her via PnP rules and not DDO rules), and a 5th lvl sorc. (not counting my 14th lvl bard.)

And yes, I am going gimmie. But gimmie only because I should have been given it already. I did go back to find an old "who wins the battle" text file I made because of this back and forth debate. I just now added to it. As you have your own casters, I see no need to bore you with the details, but I'll include only the last paragraph of it for you.

Note, at this point in the game right now, I do believe that sorcs and wizards are almost balanced.
--------------------
Because they gave wizards 1 extra spell across the board for FREE, with no costs associated, but they rip away 1 first level spell and 2 second level spell away from the sorcs. Yeah, completely un fair here. This is truly the ONLY contention that I have.

I want sorcs to actually be given the correct number of known spells. I don't want wizards to be stripped of the extra spells, nor pay the price of losing the opposing school of magic. I only want what sorcs were supposed to at start. Is this so wrong?

[Alavatar]

Honestly if I have room in my sorceror's spell slots for GREASE with 4 slots, you can make due.

Yes, a greasing sorceror.

If they implemented the spell system correctly wizards would be able to memorize more then a fixed number of spells, even in the Spell Point varient rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

"Preparing Spells
With this variant, spellcasters still prepare spells as normal (assuming they normally prepare spells). In effect, casters who prepare spells are setting their list of “spells known” for the day. They need not prepare multiple copies of the same spell, since they can cast any combination of their prepared spells each day (up to the limit of their spell points).

For example, Boredflak the 4th-level wizard has an Intelligence score of 16. When using the spell point system, he would prepare four 0-level spells, four 1st-level spells (three plus his bonus spell for high Int), and three 2nd-level spells (two plus his bonus spell for high Int). These spells make up his entire list of spells that he can cast during the day, though he can cast any combination of them, as long as he has sufficient spell points. "

So, an L14 wizard with a 30 INT would get 7 L1 spells (4 base + 3 from high INT) to memorize. On top of that they would get bonus spell points.

A sorcerer would not gain more spell slots (i.e. 5 base), just more spell points. In fact, they would get the same amount of bonus spell points as a wizard with an equivalent casting attribute value.

I believe that the SP system needs to be overhauled to match the PnP Spell Point Varient Rules; potentially multiplying total value by 2 to account for the increased number of encounters per rest.

[Katianara]

There's no "correctly". It's a variant. This is turbine's variant. The differences between PnP and online are so large that you'd be bored to tears playing a tabletop game online.

I CAST MAGIC MISSILE.

OK

I LOG OFF AND COME BACK TOMORROW

[Furgulder]

You make me laugh. I have 3 spell casters, and I have played 4

Do you even play a wizard?

What you are asking for is basically just "WAHH I WANT ANOTHER SLOT!! GIME GIMME GIMME!! MORE MORE MORE!!"

It's not gonna happen.

LOL um, you have a lvl 1 sorcerer in your "3 spell casters" and you have a MC sorcerer that I wouldnt classify as a main caster by the look of it (sor/pal/rog)

IE, if they can cast more TIMES per day and if can have more SPELL SLOTS than a wiz added on top of the more casts, then why would anyone ever play a wiz... EVER.

Sorcs are a focused class. Wizzes can do anything, just not as well as a focused sorc, sort of like fighters vs pals.

You answered your own question right there.

Its already been proven that a properly equipped and built wizard only falls a couple hundred sp behind the same equipped/similarly built sorcerer.

Yes sorcerers cast faster. They also have the option of changing 1 spell per 3 days for a fee. Wizards can swap spells for free at a shrine, and that is their main draw over sorcerers.

Both classes are powerful in their own way, and both get lousy end reward.

[Alavatar]

There's no "correctly". It's a variant. This is turbine's variant. The differences between PnP and online are so large that you'd be bored to tears playing a tabletop game online.

I CAST MAGIC MISSILE.

OK

I LOG OFF AND COME BACK TOMORROW

And Turbine's variant does not adequately compensate for the differences between PnP and CRPG MMO. By making spells prepared for wizards and clerics not variable depending on the primary casting attribute (i.e. STATIC) they have essentially turned those classes into half-baked mockeries of sorcerers.

Sorcerers should have their 5th first and second level spells, and wizards and clerics should have their spell preperation capabilities dependant on their primary casting attribute.