sorcerer spells

[Alavatar]

I vote for implementing bonus spell slots for wizards based upon INT with base spell slots as set forth in the SRD.

I vote for sorcerers having the correct number of Known Spells per the SRD.

[SneakThief]

As I already explained, what sorcs "rightfully" get is a limited selection from a very long and useful wiz/sorc spell list.

Since DDO does not have a long, useful spell list with many things that are valuable both in and out of combat, replicating the effect of the sorc versatility limitation means reducing their spells known.

Thats a ridiculous argument for known spells. You could make the same argument for SP, but no one is, and if someone tried, everyone else would scream bloody murder. There 1st and 2nd level list are more than long enough to justify allowing all of 5 known spells for sorcs.

There is no reason whatsoever that a sorceror should have more more memorized first level spells than a wizard.

The swapping itself is not the balance. If it were, then the two classes would be HORRIBLY imbalanced.

As it is right now there is no reason to play a wizard.

No reason whatsoever other than the RULES that Turbine claims to strive towards. The fact is, without bonus spells, it should be:

Known spells @ 20 -
Wizards = Unlimited
Sorcs = 5,5,4,4,4,3,3,3,3

Casts per day @ 20 -
Wizards = 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Sorcs = 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

Bonus feats @ 20 -
Wizards = 5
Sorcs = Zero

Even without bonus spells, Wizards should still get 2 more spell choices per day total then Sorcs. In DDO, Wizards get MANY more ... And no one here has said to change the Wizard count.

Wizards can know an unlimited number of spells. They can swap them out as often as they like. They get 5 bonus feats.
Additionally in DDO they get more base spells then they should have, and they dont have to carry around a spell book ... etc etc etc ...

Sorcs get more SP (which they should have).
Additionally in DDO they get less low level spells than they should and a faster casting time.

There is no good reason not to give sorcs thier 5th 1st and 2nd level spells.

[Treerat]

Sigh, do we need to do brain-transplants for you people to get the point?

Bonus spell slots for wizards ARE POINTLESS! We could memorize EVERY spell we have and still be behind sorcerers because they are the yardstick to which Turbine allots shrines to quest. Put in simple terms; because Turbine neutered the number of actually effective spells in the game down to a handful at each spell level, the ability to memorize extra spells (and to shuffle spell selection) is NOT as valuable as being able to cast faster and more often. All giving wizards more spell slots would do is let wizards have 5 or so useful spells, and the rest sitting around unused outside of one or two rarely-visited instances in the game. Now if those extra spell slots were translated into extra spell points that WASN'T available to sorcerers then an extra spell slot wouldn't matter as much. But you can safely bet that as wizards started closing the SP-gap with sorcerers, the sorcerers would be screaming bloody murder about how groups wouldn't take a sorcerer over a wizard.

For those whining (complaining is too dignified a term - it implies some validity to their argument) about not having room for resist energy; welcome to the trade off for almost being able to hit 2000 sp and casting faster. My bard has to make the same decision about which spells to take, but you don't see bards demanding more spell slots. Apparently they understand that not having to pay to learn spells comes with a price, part of which is not being able to change spells at will. Maybe you should realize that you have to pick your spells with some care instead of taking what is the current flavor of the month selection for PvP or one raid then expecting it to be as effective in completely different content.

Putting this as simply as possible; if you want to be taken seriously come up with an idea that addresses the SP & cast time advantage sorcerers have over wizards if you want more versatility. Right now all you're doing is trying to throw up a smoke screen and hope wizards won't see that they gain nothing versus a sorcerer. Newsflash people - if most of us can see through the gimmicks Turbine has been throwing at us, you're amateurish attempts aren't even going to make us blink.

[FlyinS]

So Treerat, 5 free Metamagic feats at level 20 is nothing?

No mention of that makes your post look utterly...



lol

[Aspenor]

Check the rules if you don't believe me.

Those rules do not matter. This is DDO not PnP, Turbine must balance the game around their designs. They have done so. DDO characters have access to things that PnP characters can't even dream of.

You honestly don't think Turbine looked at those rules, considered the implications, and then decided on their own system? They are the DM, they may alter the rules as they see fit. Their house, their rules.

[SneakThief]

I vote for implementing bonus spell slots for wizards based upon INT with base spell slots as set forth in the SRD.

I vote for sorcerers having the correct number of Known Spells per the SRD.

I complete agree!

Wizard 34 INT @ level 20

Base: 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Bonus:3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,1
Total: 7,7,7,7,6,6,6,6,5

I dont know if 7 will fit on the window, but if not, just make it wider Better make it 8 (since thats the max) just in case.

[Aspenor]

btw despite the fact my arguments may point to the contrary, I am taking a practical perspective. Turbine has to made managerial decisions on what content is most important, and how that content must be balanced.

I would fully support the changes proposed above, IE sorcerors spell slots, wizards additional spell slots, spell books, etc.

However I understand the complexity and time consuming nature of such a project, and I feel that Turbine would be better off continuing on their planned route and coming out with questing content.

[Drider]

At this point, there is no point in having a Wiz. A Sorc at end game is superior due to faster casting times and more spell points.

Yes wizards get the ability to swap spells whenever they please, but the amount of spells that are worth using are not as abundant in DDO as the are in PnP. At this point in the game, what else do you really need besides a handfull of spells? On my sorc I can go through most dungeons using just three spells, PK, FoD, and Fire Wall.

As for metamagics, you really don't need more then 3. Maximize or Empower, Heighten, and in some cases Extend. Enlarge is nice and all but nowhere near a must have. Quicken spell and Eschew materials are a joke.

Maybe with the Metamagic changes coming in Mod 5 that will change.. but I don't see it being so drastic that it will make Wizards even compable to what sorcs are at this point.

They would need to increase the spell list by about 50% with useful spells before I feel my wiz will be as useful as my sorc. This pains me as I personally like the wizard better then the sorc overall. They are just not able to hang at this point.

[Alavatar]

I complete agree!

Wizard 34 INT @ level 20

Base: 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
Bonus:3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,1
Total: 7,7,7,7,6,6,6,6,5

I dont know if 7 will fit on the window, but if not, just make it wider Better make it 8 (since thats the max) just in case.

That alone would make me favor my fledgling wizard over my capped sorcerer. Being able to have Acid Fog, Dance Sphere, Ball Lighting, Chain Lightning, and a host of other spells prepared instead of the limited spells my sorcerer has I think would greatly account for the sorcerer advantage of 1.5x spell points and faster cooldown times.

Once again, I vote for bonus spell slots for wizards based on INT (per SRD) with base spell slots per SRD and spells known for sorcerers per SRD.

[Missing_Minds]

Once again, I vote for bonus spell slots for wizards based on INT (per SRD) with base spell slots per SRD and spells known for sorcerers per SRD.

I should add to this. If they do add in bonus spells for wizards, they should also add in the extra spell feat so sorcs could get more spells known as well.


And Asp, I agree 100%, this is DDO not PnP. But like any game that has a DM (in this case, Turbine) players have always argued, debated, whined, cried, bribed, asked, etc. to get rules changed in their favor. And good DMs will accept such if the arguments are valid and even better, make sense.

Sorcs have a bases and valid reason that DDO is based on PnP so why not give them the correct number of spells known. We have not been given any answer to this AFTER they have added in more spells.
Why do wizards have 1 more than the base amount of spells known? We have infered and extrapolated guesses but no direct answer.

What can I say.. I miss the seemingly by gone days when devs posted back on topics.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Every sorc has seen a posting "must have XXXX spell" for a group. Yes this is stupid. Yes every quest can be completed without a particular spell. But it does get sorc turned away.

So yes, the ability to change spells is a very powerful tool in this game.

Also the 5 meta magic feats are very powerful. They can contribute not just to raw spellcasting power but flexibilty. Anyone who doesn't see the value of 5 extra spell slots is too into cookie cutter builds and understand the value of the various feats. (And just wait, if they introduce all the feats that they could, such as energy admixture people will be saying "why play a sorc")

Randomly saying "give me more spells" is something that I disagree with. I wish my sorc had another L7 slot, and another L6, and another L5... but you know what, that's the deal for a sorc. This game however claims to be "real D&D" so it would be nice if they followed the rule book unless there was a specific reason that it was unworkable in the online version. Two missing spell slots is just arbitrary and pointless.

[Alavatar]

I should add to this. If they do add in bonus spells for wizards, they should also add in the extra spell feat so sorcs could get more spells known as well.

Good point. I agree.

[Sokar6000]

At this point, there is no point in having a Sorc. A Wiz at end game is superior due to having a larger number of high level spells prepared.

Fixed, Quoted for Truth.

[jaitee]

right now i think wizzys are just as good as a sorc, just most wizzys dont know hwo to play their class

[Mr._Dna]

Enough with the people shouting: "______ (insert the opposite of whatever class you play) are the only good casters, period."

Any reasonable person can see that the two classes are pretty well balanced at the moment. What I am wondering is, will sorcerers getting an extra 1st and 2nd level spell slot disturb that balance overly much? For that matter, did the developers specifically remove those slots for game balance? (Because they've otherwise followed the PnP progression to the letter for sorcerers- this will be my last mention of PnP, because well, DDO is NOT PnP, so that's not a very good argument for ANYTHING).

We all know the list, but it's worth taking an objective look....

Sorcerers:

Pros: Faster casting
More spell points (most are in the 1700-1800 range)
Don't have to inscribe spells to learn them (this is pretty insignificant,
since scrolls of every spell can be purchased at a vendor.)

Cons: Fewer spells known
Can only swap spells once every 3 days.

Wizards

Pros: Can change spells at tavern/rest shrine
More spells known (access to spells one character level sooner)
Bonus metamagic feats - I think this is being overlooked. At least 3
metamagics are more or less essential for arcanes: Heighten,
Maximize (or Empower), Extend (if only for Haste). Freeing up
those 3 feat choices allows for things Improved Mental
Toughness, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, etc.

Cons: Fewer spell points (most I know are around 1300 or so these days)
Slower casting times


Here's my take on why wizards still have the edge over sorcerors, by way of example:

Level 14 wizard runs "A Cabal for One" - spell selection: FoD, Mass Hold (or SoS). Sorcerer spell selection: FoD.

Same runs "Reaver's Fate" he's gonna take Dancing sphere and Banishment (Mind Fog to back it up). Sorcerer: FoD. Now what happens if you get 3 sorcerers as your only casters in that raid? Are they gonna have to rely on Hypno Pattern, instead of Sphere? Again, hopefully one of them even has Hypno Pattern, considering the log jam for level 2 spells. It's just one example - and let's not get side tracked with discussing the tactics of that particular raid, either. But this kind of thing happens constantly when you play a sorcerer. Unless you're running your own groups, the leaders have a certain way they know how/prefer to do the quests and you just have to hope that your spells match what they like to do, or that you can convince them of another way to do it.

Keep this in mind as well - going forward, we are going to get more spells at ALL levels. For every new spell we get that is worth using EVER, wizards just got a bump in power relative to sorcerers.

Okay, enough rambling...proceed with the unreasoned one-sided responses

[HumanRogue]

Level 14 wizard runs "A Cabal for One" - spell selection: FoD, Mass Hold (or SoS). Sorcerer spell selection: FoD.

Same runs "Reaver's Fate" he's gonna take Dancing sphere and Banishment (Mind Fog to back it up). Sorcerer: FoD. Now what happens if you get 3 sorcerers as your only casters in that raid? Are they gonna have to rely on Hypno Pattern, instead of Sphere? Again, hopefully one of them even has Hypno Pattern, considering the log jam for level 2 spells. It's just one example - and let's not get side tracked with discussing the tactics of that particular raid, either. But this kind of thing happens constantly when you play a sorcerer. Unless you're running your own groups, the leaders have a certain way they know how/prefer to do the quests and you just have to hope that your spells match what they like to do, or that you can convince them of another way to do it.

Keep this in mind as well - going forward, we are going to get more spells at ALL levels. For every new spell we get that is worth using EVER, wizards just got a bump in power relative to sorcerers.

Okay, enough rambling...proceed with the unreasoned one-sided responses

Agreed. Seen it myself with my sorcerer... Don't know how one extra 1st and one extra 2nd lvl spell for a sorcerer is so gamebreaking for a wizard though. They still have all the versatility at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc level spells... (And always will even if they give the correct amount of 1st and 2nd lvl spells to a sorcerer.)

[Mr._Dna]

Agreed. Seen it myself with my sorcerer... Don't know how one extra 1st and one extra 2nd lvl spell for a sorcerer is so gamebreaking for a wizard though. They still have all the versatility at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc level spells... (And always will even if they give the correct amount of 1st and 2nd lvl spells to a sorcerer.)

That's all I'm saying. I don't want ALL the best spells for EVERY situation, just a couple more low level ones for the sake of convenience. I think it's kinda ridiculous that there are people who play wizards thinking that a minor change like this will somehow invalidate their class choice.