Suggestion: Alignment changes

[bigal4458]

I'd be for this, if implemented correctly. Even just so that I could use my Chaosblade that I looted on my lawful good twf.

[Uska]

So you claim that only powergamers, roleplayers and liars want this change? And this somehow is only 1% of the base?

Your logic still is elluding me.

I really don't understand why wanting to mix monk in with established characters is a bad thing for you. FYI, not everyone has to play the same way or for the same reasons.

Personally anything where powergamers AND roleplayers both want would seem to be a good thing to me, especially if it put things more in line with PnP.

Hmm smart people planned on monks from the start and I am going to be putting in monk in a character already started I knew he had to be lawful and monks arent going to be the be all end all. I have mainly said wasting time on quests that would give you a chance to change alignment is a waste of dev time as most people proably dont want or need a change in alignment.

[Inkblack]

Noone ever has proven that their alignment changed other then the back button bug that has since been fixed. screen shot has been asked for dozens of times would be nice if you were a neutral bard and were now lg and could be a paladin.

I've heard this argument a million times, just like you've heard my side a million times. I don't have a screenshot. I do concretely remember holding on to a stability item while waiting to level up to 4. I remember equipping it when I got to level 4. I remember looking at my character sheet before and after equipping the item and saying wow, that +2 bonus to AC really helped out. Then I remember when I got to 6th level, I equipped the next level of item and noticed that the bonus had gone away. Did I take a screenshot? No. Because I didn't know that it might be an issue. I bet if you polled all of the players of DDO, a very tiny percentage actually has a screenshot of their character sheet with their alignment on it. Because it shouldn't be an issue.

Bottom line, I know what I saw, and am well aware that no one has a screenshot to prove it. It really bothers me that some people assume I (and quite a few others) are lying. I'm sure the back button was part of the problem. I'm also sure it wasn't all of the problem.

I still want the option to change my alignment.

Ink

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

That wouldnt' be allowed. They have 2 choices if they were to code this:

1) The easy way -not allow incompatible alignments (ie - if you are a pali you can't change your alignment, if you are a barb you can't select a lawful alignment on respec)
2) The correct under D&D rules but harder to code way - if you change to an incompatible alignment you lose linked class abilities. So for example the lawful Barb can no longer rage.

Wouldnt be allowed just like when we take a non pal lvl after taking our first pal lvl, we cannot advance in pal anymore??? Oh wait nm :P

They already changed the alignment rules and decisions they made doing it make it **** near impossible to allow char align changes to be effectivly implemented.

From SRD:
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

[Braddock_Tharmwell]

Wouldnt be allowed just like when we take a non pal lvl after taking our first pal lvl, we cannot advance in pal anymore??? Oh wait nm :P

They already changed the alignment rules and decisions they made doing it make it **** near impossible to allow char align changes to be effectivly implemented.

Ummm. What does Multi-Classing Paladins have to do with Racial Alignment restrictions exactly??

They changed the rule that a Pally could get more levels after a multi. That doesn't seem to have changed the fact that a Paladin can still only be Lawful/Good.

[moonprophet]

Why is it that every time someone makes any suggestions at all, there is someone on these forums that feels it is there duty to step up and spout negativity? If the developers make something available and you don't want to take advantage of it.....DON'T. My suggetsion to everyone else is this: when having a meaningfull and intelligent discussion it is best to try and simply ignore those who would disrupt the discussion simply for the sake of being a negative voice. Now, in all seriousness, I don;t see why allowing others to have a mechanism to change allignment would be a bad thing at all. I might not decide to take advantage of the opportunity, but others doing so has absolutely nothing to do with me. I say it sounds like a great idea. Hopefully the devs give it serious consideration.

[Ziggy]

Why is it that every time someone makes any suggestions at all, there is someone on these forums that feels it is there duty to step up and spout negativity?

strange i thought the OP wanted our oppinions?

What do you guys think about this?

oh wait he did. I think its a bad idea myself, but only because 80% of the people that "Need" to change alignment are doing so because they want to use a pure good weapon.

But thats my oppinion.

[KristovK]

As pointed out already, in PnP alignment change is a long process usually, and not always something the player/character WANT to have happen. Personally had an assassin build who hooked up with some good guys as part of a long term spy mission. Being around all those good people had an adverse(to an assassin) effect on my character, he started developing morals! Wasn't sudden, didn't even realize it myself, but the DM did and he informed me after a while that my alignment wasn't NE anymore but TN and sliding towards NG(when I went to level up as Assassin again). I didn't like that, was NOT part of my character build plan..but it WAS how the character was progressing and acting, so...I simply sat back and let the character play it out with the other characters. Screwed up a perfectly deadly assassin build, but became a great character to play due to the RP possibilities. That's how it's typically done in PnP, long drawn out process that the player usually isn't trying to accomplish.

There's also the sudden drastic change of alignment that can be done, but that's kind of costly, usually costs you a level or more.

DDO doesn't have the RP to change alignment over time, so that's not really an option. A series of quests just to change your alignment...no, sorry, that's really not the way to do it, people would be changing alignment every week to take advantage of whatever weapon/class was the new flavor of the month.

Now, a drastic change that costs you 1 level per grade...that would be a good thing. Want to go from LG with your Paladin to NG...fine, costs you a level. And so on. That lets all the people who've 'had a bug' that changed their alignment(sorry, the devs have stated many times, there were NO alignment changes after character creation ever confirmed in the databases EVER) be able to pick the alignment they meant to have but didn't actually pick. It also allows people to change alignment to use weapons they normally can't or pick classes they normally can't. Just costs them a level or two to do so. For low level characters, no big deal, for capped characters it's a bit costly, so it'll keep people from abusing it...too much. Also put in the restrictions that are supposed to apply to alignment specific classes who change alignments, like Paladins and Barbarians, change alignment and lose abilities tied to the class. That will definately keep people from bouncing around the alignments to build Paly/Barbs, but we'd definately see some Paly/Bards...but you can see them in PnP so that's fine.

[Aesop]

I've got nothing against a way to change alignment. It should only be one step per change (and only one axis at a time also) So a Neutral Good Bard could change alignments to Chaotic or Lawful (though he wouldn't be able to advance as a bard anymore ... would he) or he could change to a Neutral from the Good axis.

This would open up more character options. For example a person could go Bard 6 (NG) then decide they wanted their character to move towards a more Lawful direction and eventually become a Pally... or Monk. This would work for some very interesting concepts and characters... and would tie in to using some of the Feats available in the various books that allow certain power combinations.... specifically in this instance I could see the implementation of Devoted Performer from the Complete Adventurer...


I would be neat and I like neat


Aesop

[Vorn]

I think the only way I could go for this is not by dragonshard but by actual quest choices making a change in a characters alignment. This is probably impossible in an MMO which plays much more like Disneyland with a variety of areas and rides than an rpg in which constraints and restraints of alignment actually matter.

Beyond that most of the Pallys I know are CN

Cheers!
V

[skraus1]

strange i thought the OP wanted our oppinions?

Yes, I wanted opinions. I believe by lamenting the "negativity," he was referring to people saying or implying that there was something "wrong" with the people on the opposing side. I don't think he was critizing people for disagreeing for some reason or another, such as thinking more quests are needed or that some options are too time consuming.

[Aeneas]

Why? doesnt fit to me. Just have to be some kind of lawful to be a monk you just want to add some monk to an old character because its new? Sorry not trying to be rude but dont need this just so some people can add the new flavor of the month to themselves. I planed for a mutli-class monk from the start plus saved a slot for one so should everyone else that wants a monk besides most of the time Lawful good is proably your best choice in ddo for an alignment. you can be a ranger or rogue/monk no problem just be lawful good or lawful netural

If you don't like the idea of someone deciding suddenly that partway through a character's lifetime they choose to be a monk, you're missing the point of dungeons and dragons. At its heart the game is about immersing yourself in the world of another character and guiding his choices based on your desires. Preventing someone from doing something, especially on a whim, is very anti-DnD.

[Aesop]

Beyond that most of the Pallys I know are CN

CN? Chuck Norris... you know Chuck Norris.

You know what they say

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.


Aesop

[skraus1]

CN? Chuck Norris... you know Chuck Norris.

You know what they say

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.


Aesop

LOL I can see all the monk/pally hordes massing now.

[blah77]

HUGE HUGE waste of dev time we have enough people complaining about not enough content and you would have them waste dev time on this Yeah right. The main people crying out for alignment changes are.

And I suppose you're an expert programmer that actually has an idea how long this would take? As far as I'm concerned, this *is* adding content to the game. On top of that, it is adding depth to a game that is sorely lacking in that department. D&D is all about character customization and making choices for your characters. This only adds to that, not take away from it.

1. Power gamers wanting to try flavor of the month

False, the power gamers already know that lawful good is the best alignment so this would barely benefit them except for maybe their very first character (if it hasn't been re-rolled already). With that said, this implementation will allow the people who had no idea how alignment would affect their character equipment as they get higher level to rectify that initial mis-step, one they had no control over. That isn't a theory, it's a fact. That is of course you care to argue that people who rolled their first character a week after DDO came out already knew from the start that the devs had put in chaosgarde or the deleras bracers which are alignment restricted.

2. People who wont admit their alignment changed do to back button bug and they finally noticed now(should pay more attention but maybe something could be done down the road)

With the amount of bugs that exist in DDO (many of which still unfixed), I think I'll give these players the benefit of the doubt thanks.

BUT something this is a waste of time and 99% of base proably has no need or interest in it. So maybe 2 or 3 years down the road would be good

Well, I might be simplifying things a little bit but here is how I see the development process of these types of quests will play out.

1. The writers come up with a script for the npc which involves several diverging trees that will in the end determine what the character's new alignment be. The dialogue would pose moral dilemmas and choice making or something along the lines of that. Frankly, this is something that even a college undergrad majoring in psychology/philosophy can conjure up in a week's time.

2. The programmers come up with specific scripts that will examine your character's class(es) and determine which alignment choices should be allowed and eliminate the dialogue trees of the other alignments. Basically it'll be a similiar script as the one that is used when you first select your charcters class in the creation screen. Not exactly a revolutionary and intensive coding job.

3. Recycle existing textures and 3D models as these quests will be dialogue driven for the most part thus minimizing the need for new "purty" eye candy graphics.

There, that's my take on what a huge "time sink" this chain of quests will be. Heck, the way I see it, this can even be a one size fits all quest chain which is far less combat intensive thus it should require far less time to put together than your average DDO quest chain such as co6, deleras or threnal.

[KristovK]

Something people asking for alignment change keep overlooking or simply are not aware of...you can NOT simply tell the DM your character's alignment is now X instead of Y, doesn't work like that at all.

You create your character and pick the alignment, or have it decided by your class choice in some cases. You now have to play that character within the general guidelines for that alignment, unless you are a Paladin(there's other classes with strict guidelines, but not in DDO yet like Monk), in which case you have VERY strict guidelines based on alignment AND religon/church you must abide by. These aren't optional, these aren't pick and chose, these are what you must follow. Failure to do so has defined changes that take place, depending on the alignment/class combos. And YOU don't decide this, the DM does based on your RP and your direct actions..or inactions in many cases. The DM usually won't alert you to the fact that your alignment is changing, how a character progresses IS up to the player, not the DM, but they'll let you know eventually...like when you go to use that Pure Good item your NG rogue has and find you can't use it cause you are now NE, greed does that ya know. Paladin's do NOT get to just up and decide to be evil or not lawful, doesn't work that way. Doing so results in the loss of ALL Paladin abilities and the inability to take Paladin levels again. Yes it is possible to make a deal with a demon or evil deity and become a Blackguard, but getting Paladin abilities back isn't done that way for a Blackguard, it's a special case where a Paladin has been slowly and unknowingly subverted. Yes the DM and the player are usually in collusion on this, yes the player decided up front to make a Blackguard, but it is STILL played out and takes time...and the character will spend levels as a straight up Fighter after losing their Paladinhood and before gaining Blackguard status.

No active DMs in DDO, so the entire RP aspect of alignments is missing. So we're left with the most basic use of alignments..class and item restrictions. Let people just start jumping around with their alignments and we have no reason for alignments in the game at all. Giving the ability to change alignments within 1 axis at a time at the cost of 1 level per change..that's something I can deal with, since it makes up for the lack of a RP ability to change alignments OR to have them changed without your choice because of your actions or inactions. As someone pointed out, most Paladins in DDO are NOT LG...most are CG at best, usually CN...sure would **** off a LOT of people if their actual playing resulted in alignment changes like it does in PnP.

And, again, there is no bug that alters alignment after you've created a character and played it, the devs made that very clear. They searched and searched and searched for ANYONE that had that happen and it never did. EVERY single time, the alignment the character had was the one given it upon creation, the database was very clear on that, NO ONE had their alignment change after character creation. There was an issue with alignment being reset to LG if you hit the back button at all during character creation, but that was the ONLY issue involved, and that's been fixed. Anyone else claiming that they suddenly found themselves NG or CN or whatever...well...I won't say they are liars...but they should perhaps eat more fish because it would seem that their memory is rather faulty. After all, going from 4th to 6th level and only suddenly realizing that you aren't actually TN but are instead NG...well...that's one hells of a memory lapse.

[Shade]

Id like it because I and other players got screwed over by the great shifts in alignment balance.

From what i learned in beta, true neutral was the best alignment. Wasn't a ton better then the other but a bit so i went with it.

Netted me the use of anarchic, axomatic weps and stability items. The weps are good and all, but the negative of being the wrong alignment is fairly small so its not crucial.. Stability is good for low lvls, beyond lvl6 or so its useless because its far too easy to aquire far superior effects which dont stack.

Then later they come out with bracers that grant lawful and chaotic higher AC then neutral.. Ok the ac bonus is totally lost from stability before, now its corpse is stabbed a few more times.

Next they bring in retribution and unbalance the mid lvl game with crazy paladins going nuts with there all too easy to get sword.

If that wasn't eneough, they went ahead and gave every high lvl good melee the *huge* ability to rez with no fail. Other alignments dont get a umd check or a negative lvl like weapons, no there totaly screwed over instead.

That trend continues with a few more good/lawful only items like the belt of sever idea in the gianthold.

So pretty much now i have my maxxed barbarian with countless raid items, but to make him equal to other good aligned melee I have to reroll and run 200 raids over again.

Bloody rez ring. NERF NERF NERF. - end rant.

[Uska]

I've heard this argument a million times, just like you've heard my side a million times. I don't have a screenshot. I do concretely remember holding on to a stability item while waiting to level up to 4. I remember equipping it when I got to level 4. I remember looking at my character sheet before and after equipping the item and saying wow, that +2 bonus to AC really helped out. Then I remember when I got to 6th level, I equipped the next level of item and noticed that the bonus had gone away. Did I take a screenshot? No. Because I didn't know that it might be an issue. I bet if you polled all of the players of DDO, a very tiny percentage actually has a screenshot of their character sheet with their alignment on it. Because it shouldn't be an issue.

Bottom line, I know what I saw, and am well aware that no one has a screenshot to prove it. It really bothers me that some people assume I (and quite a few others) are lying. I'm sure the back button was part of the problem. I'm also sure it wasn't all of the problem.

I still want the option to change my alignment.

Ink

You can get a stability item equiped or you could at least just didnt get the benifit of it and I dont assume people are lying just misremembering or mistaken as I had done the samething with the back button and had to start a character over it was very easy to do and not notice. Its still a waste of time as we need many other things much much much etc......more

[Uska]

And I suppose you're an expert programmer that actually has an idea how long this would take? As far as I'm concerned, this *is* adding content to the game. On top of that, it is adding depth to a game that is sorely lacking in that department. D&D is all about character customization and making choices for your characters. This only adds to that, not take away from it.



False, the power gamers already know that lawful good is the best alignment so this would barely benefit them except for maybe their very first character (if it hasn't been re-rolled already). With that said, this implementation will allow the people who had no idea how alignment would affect their character equipment as they get higher level to rectify that initial mis-step, one they had no control over. That isn't a theory, it's a fact. That is of course you care to argue that people who rolled their first character a week after DDO came out already knew from the start that the devs had put in chaosgarde or the deleras bracers which are alignment restricted.



With the amount of bugs that exist in DDO (many of which still unfixed), I think I'll give these players the benefit of the doubt thanks.



Well, I might be simplifying things a little bit but here is how I see the development process of these types of quests will play out.

1. The writers come up with a script for the npc which involves several diverging trees that will in the end determine what the character's new alignment be. The dialogue would pose moral dilemmas and choice making or something along the lines of that. Frankly, this is something that even a college undergrad majoring in psychology/philosophy can conjure up in a week's time.

2. The programmers come up with specific scripts that will examine your character's class(es) and determine which alignment choices should be allowed and eliminate the dialogue trees of the other alignments. Basically it'll be a similiar script as the one that is used when you first select your charcters class in the creation screen. Not exactly a revolutionary and intensive coding job.

3. Recycle existing textures and 3D models as these quests will be dialogue driven for the most part thus minimizing the need for new "purty" eye candy graphics.

There, that's my take on what a huge "time sink" this chain of quests will be. Heck, the way I see it, this can even be a one size fits all quest chain which is far less combat intensive thus it should require far less time to put together than your average DDO quest chain such as co6, deleras or threnal.

I give just say we can never agree but I dont think it will happen but we will see.

[Uska]

Id like it because I and other players got screwed over by the great shifts in alignment balance.

From what i learned in beta, true neutral was the best alignment. Wasn't a ton better then the other but a bit so i went with it.

Netted me the use of anarchic, axomatic weps and stability items. The weps are good and all, but the negative of being the wrong alignment is fairly small so its not crucial.. Stability is good for low lvls, beyond lvl6 or so its useless because its far too easy to aquire far superior effects which dont stack.

Then later they come out with bracers that grant lawful and chaotic higher AC then neutral.. Ok the ac bonus is totally lost from stability before, now its corpse is stabbed a few more times.

Next they bring in retribution and unbalance the mid lvl game with crazy paladins going nuts with there all too easy to get sword.

If that wasn't eneough, they went ahead and gave every high lvl good melee the *huge* ability to rez with no fail. Other alignments dont get a umd check or a negative lvl like weapons, no there totaly screwed over instead.

That trend continues with a few more good/lawful only items like the belt of sever idea in the gianthold.

So pretty much now i have my maxxed barbarian with countless raid items, but to make him equal to other good aligned melee I have to reroll and run 200 raids over again.

Bloody rez ring. NERF NERF NERF. - end rant.

Nah I figured in beta LG was good and I thought true netrual was 2nd best of course I was late beta earlier it may have been the other way.