Endgame is creeping into Vorpal-mania

[Tanka]

Add me to the "Vorpals are overrated" group.

I'll use my paralyzer or SoS before I use my vorpal, save for against, say, the PotP Vampire. Otherwise those are just about the only two weapons I use.

[Tanka]

My point is a tank...good tank has to be able to switch out gear and can't always depend on 1 good weapon. (But its so pretty to watch them turn blue and die)

Which is precisely why I say:

"A melee build is 1/4 build, 1/4 items, and 1/2 player."

You can have "the best" build, with "the best" gear, and still be a bad player.

I will take a good player with non-optimal (but still good) equipment and build over a mediocre player with the best equipment available.

[Shecky]

Which is precisely why I say:

"A melee build is 1/4 build, 1/4 items, and 1/2 player."

You can have "the best" build, with "the best" gear, and still be a bad player.

I will take a good player with non-optimal (but still good) equipment and build over a mediocre player with the best equipment available.

At the same time, gear does cover a multitude of sins - if someone with the "top weapons in the game" DOESN'T mow 'em down, that player is pretty much sure to be awful. I mean, with the weapons cray was talking about, even a modicum of talent and a minimum of barely common sense would make it easy. Unfortunately, there are too many out there who don't have those minima or for whom the unearned ego counteracts any real ability. Got a small but respectable DNG list for just those sorts.

[Alcamez]

I had a vorpal just after the Titan raid release. It was a +1 vorpal greatsword....RR Dwarf Diff 16.... It was truly one of the best swords I had on my umd drow pally..... with impr two hand wep feat. I was able to vorp multiple targets and toss that in with all the smites I had. Now I rarely use it. And for some reason my cleric always pulls em. Since I respect my pally, the +5 Anarchic kopesh of pure good with a smite is way better, or the +4holy burst heavy pick with a held mob. Vorp is useless when questing with a group but use it with an off hand finesse paralyser with your greater heroism clicky to get back you + to hit and pull the mobs in one by one when soloing and see its true effectiveness... <serious run-on sorry to all you English majors :P

[iconiclastic]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

Oh whatever!You dont always roll a 20.You might as well say that using a symbol of fear in the crucible is too powerful and you would be just as ******** saying so.It seems that it is only a problem for you until you whine about it and they nerf or change things again!Why should a fighter be penalizied for maximizing his chances of survivability?It seems that anyone with the ability to solve a difficult quest gets stomped by the gm's for their creativity while those lacking grey matter between their ears complain about it.Here is a tip for you Baaah stay with the flock!

[Geonis]

On the other hand, what are the chances that a full time vorpal wielder will be able to roll a 20 in that 3-4 seconds?

Given a full TWF attack sequence takes ~2-2.5 secs, about 1 in 2. When you throw in haste and attack speed boost it gets better.

If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future.

Good to know, since I myself make notes as to who is elitist garbage and add them to my DNG list. We'll do each other a favor and not group.

Khopesh TWF'ers can use a vorpal as their main weapon and still rack up nearly as much damage as SoS monsters like me. Obviously the real problem here is that khopeshes need nerfing.

Hey hey hey!!!!!! Step away from the khopesh buddy!

My point is a tank...good tank has to be able to switch out gear and can't always depend on 1 good weapon. (But its so pretty to watch them turn blue and die)


Cray

Now this I can agree with.

Vorp is useless when questing with a group

Uh, okay. Just send any vorpals you pull my way.

I'llEven on trash mobs, I'll take my Seeker +10 khopesh, thank you. 90+ damage with power attack on and 50+ AC, every 25% of the time? 220+ on Smite Evil crits? Yes please.

I think I'll take my Vorpal khopesh with Bloodstone and power attack doing real close to the same damage with a chance to instakill (on average once every 3 attack sequences).

So to the folks that are bashing vorpals in this thread and dont have one, I wish you luck in your rolls....

For the ones that Have em and still bash em... Is the game fun for ya still?

Hell yeah!!!!


And for those saying you have to have DPS, I do just by switching weapons and can keep up with just about anyone. And the "DPS is faster" is a load of ****.

[Grenfell]

Three points:

1. What makes some of you say "vorpal is not DPS"?

One doesn't have to use some crappy +1 vorpal longsword in lieu of a +5 holy scimtar of PG.... The base weapon counts after all.

For what it's worth, I favor vorpal greataxes for this reason. The difference between a +3 vorpal greataxe and a +5 holy GA of PG is not actually that large. The extra 3d6 of damage (and +2 to hit/damage) is more than compensated for by the times you roll a 20.

2. As the game progresses, I suspect that either vorpals will become far more valuable as mob HP goes completely berserk, or they will become worthless as every mob will have some sort of anti-vorpal protection.

3. As the game progresses, vorpals themselves may drop in "higher quality" variants. If we start getting +5 Vorpal Greataxe of Righteousness, I'd like to see the DPS weapon that compares to that in killing power.

/gren

[Kethir]

Well, like you said Gren, vorpal dps depends on the vorpal.

And people who say vorpal is not dps are thinking +1 longsword vorpals. Of course, as you stated in your own thread on the subject, 1 handed fighting is seriously out of style as it is seriously underpowered vis a vis 2 handed fighting.

BTW, vorpal greatsword is better than a greataxe, if you're not a dwarf. A 17-19 will do x2 damage, whereas on a greataxe, only a 19 will do x3 damage. A vorpal falchion is even better.

I opine vorpals will become much more valuable, but not until after the next mod, as you can't vorpal non-vampire undead. I don't believe we'll see every mob with deathblock (like reaver preraid) - that would be un-d&d like.

The quest where vorpals really rock is madstone. I haven't done madstone elite on my ranger, but I expect that quest to be ridiculous as a dual wielder. Mobs in there can't be instakilled easily, and they have tons of hp.

But yes, a simple +1 longsword is not the ideal vorpal for a dps build. Any one hander isn't ideal for a dps build. A +1 longsword, however, is just fine for a twf str based ranger/fighter/rogue, or a cleric, or bard.

I don't know who designed gianthold, but when you compare the monster saves and difficulty on elite for gianthold vs any other part of the game, there is something seriously different going on in gianthold. I've been doing alot of non-gianthold recently on elite for favor, and its like a different game outside gianthold.

[geoffhanna]

Vorpals may not be good main weapons, but for the vamp in PoP nothing can beat a vorpal or a disruptor, and certainly your puncturers are going to do zilch against him.

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

[Hvymetal]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

I've wittnessed him being disrupted a few times, it does happen he just saves a whole bunch I think.

[Gimpster]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it?

Me, and many many other players. Conventional wisdom is that disruption works better than vorpal on him, because what with the -4 attack penalty from chasing him around you could have trouble confirming the crit.

Mathmatically though, it should be either identical, or a win for the vorpal if you have any kind of Critical Accuracy boost.
For Vorpal, you need to roll a natural 20 and then hit his AC to confirm.
For Disruption, you need to hit his AC and then he must roll a natural 1 to fail the save.
Either way, a 5% per-hit chance of victory.

[craythegray]

[QUOTE=Kethir;1253253]Well, like you said Gren, vorpal dps depends on the vorpal.

BTW, vorpal greatsword is better than a greataxe, if you're not a dwarf. A 17-19 will do x2 damage, whereas on a greataxe, only a 19 will do x3 damage. A vorpal falchion is even better.

QUOTE]

Have to disagree with you Kethir. (At least for surtain builds)


(you said this point just explaining why) Dwarfs get action points that can give the +2/+2 to axs. So a plus 1 vorpal great ax becomes a plus 3 vorpal great ax. A plus 3 vorpal great ax becomes a plus 5 vorpal great ax.....ect ect.


I have found great axs (with a 32 str) crit double of what the exact same great sword does. (again on a dwarf)

Great swords have a slower swing.....and falchions are the slowest of the three.


Hands down IMO great ax is better.


Just my two cents...forgive the spelling.


Cray

[Boldrin]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

I always use disruption on the vamp on my fighter, and on My TWF rogue I use a vorpal/disruptor combo. Disruption + cursespewing is even better. If you think of it, vorpal, you need to roll a 20 AND confirm it, disruption, you hit pretty much every time, all he has to do is roll a 1 to save and he's done, usually on my pop runs, the vamp gets disrupted.

[Tanka]

I always use disruption on the vamp on my fighter, and on My TWF rogue I use a vorpal/disruptor combo. Disruption + cursespewing is even better. If you think of it, vorpal, you need to roll a 20 AND confirm it, disruption, you hit pretty much every time, all he has to do is roll a 1 to save and he's done, usually on my pop runs, the vamp gets disrupted.

He usually gets Vorpal'd on my runs.

Granted, I tend to trip him as soon as possible, so that lends to everyone swinging their vorpals at him for that 20.

[MtnLion]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

Apparently you are, since I have disrupted him four times, to date, and seen others do likewise. On the other hand, when I dual wield disrupter and vorpal offhand, the vorpal has hit first, so far.

[PsyloSatan]

I dunno about all the melee vorpal stuff. There are some places where its useful more than anything else but if you dont know where those places are you are taking a gamble with low(ish) damage while you are getting pounded on. I dont have a problem with someone wanting to go melee vorpal through a whole dungeon as long as they dont whine at me for not healing them fast enough.

I recently looted a +1 vorpal returning axe of righteousness tho and I gotta say that is a force to be reckoned with in the hands of my ranger in any dungeon and almost any situation. Granted I have gotten myself smashed a few times here and there going vorpal through an entire dungeon like pop or something like that so even for a ranger its a bit of a gamble if you pick the wrong battle. But if you see a ton of these returning weapons with vorpal on them start dropping like candy then there will be a problem. How hard is it for a 6 man crew to roll a few 20s? I might actually have to break down and pick up Tensers Transformation on my sorcs lol.

For now all the vorpal and smiting and whatever should be expected. We are level 14 now and those of us that know how to play need big boy toys. Switching DPS weapons is what we did back in the day when we were doing loot runs in C06 or earlier. I highly doubt the devs are "giving" all the mobs freedom of movement and deathward and such just to save them from our insta death weapons. The mobs are getting these abilities because they are CR 20(ish) and there is no reason they shouldnt be using spells and abilities that reflect that level. By comaprrison it wouldnt make much sence for us to be running around with the same spells we had at lvl 10 or earlier and only adding a higher DC. So dont hate the game, hate the player and tell them to Learn2Power5