Endgame is creeping into Vorpal-mania

[Plynx]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

[scorn_the_infallible]

vorpals do not work on red - purple so dps is still important .... sometimes ..... but not like it used to be.

[blah77]

Vorpal is over-rated as a full time weapon, period. Whenever I see someone using vorpal for everything in a quest, I just shake my head. A good DPS build will still out-kill a full time vorpal wielder in most high level quests, normal or elite. This is especially true if you play with a regular partner in which both of you are DPS builds. One such example would be a strength based DPS TWF fighter with focuses on stunning/trip and a strength based DPS rogue with all the sneak attack bonuses. The majority of elite mobs in the game right now will go down within 3-4 seconds with this duo (except those immune to sneak attacks of course) if not faster. On the other hand, what are the chances that a full time vorpal wielder will be able to roll a 20 in that 3-4 seconds?

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Vorpal ain't all that. It is definitely over-rated. It's great for... well, the vampire and the marilith in PoP (and even against the marilith it's just a convenience).

Any other time you're better off with consistent big dps weapons.

Besides which, as anyone who plays D&D knows, the end-game is ALL ABOUT instant-death effects.

It's just usually a spellcaster doing it. Most spells from 5th level on up are designed to kill the opponent on a single failed saving throw.

Levels 1-10, all about the melee, with spellcasters for support.
Levels 11-20, all about the spellcasters, with melee for support.

That's just the way it is.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Vorpal ain't all that. It is definitely over-rated. It's great for... well, the vampire and the marilith in PoP (and even against the marilith it's just a convenience).

Any other time you're better off with consistent big dps weapons.

Besides which, as anyone who plays D&D knows, the end-game is ALL ABOUT instant-death effects. <snip> That's just the way it is.

I will add one small note that finessable Vorpals turns the high DEX TWF into a killing machine that draws no aggro. Vorpal is the new Wounding. (But, good luck finding a Vorpal Sickle, Handaxe, Kukri, or Kama.)

[Elleron]

I have to agree with wulf, at higher levels the dps goes to the mages. Inst-killing is an art form. In so much that are guild is talking about sorcerer raiding parties.

I run a sorcerer and plenty of other things, so if they kill them as I get there no big deal to me, because I didn't take any damage either. Kill counts dont really matter except for "trash talking", if the quest is a success then I don't care if I had 100 kills or 1. Though I would be upset with 0.

Inst-killn helps out the whole group, 25-35 sp for one death, much better than the cleric running out of sp, because he is constantly healing the dps melee machine and the mage who ran in too close.

[Shade]

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

To think its the most efficient way to do a high level quest is very sad indeed. You really need to find some good melee to group with. If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future. Even extreme hp mobs like the vampire i can kill with DPS faster then 3 other melee can manage to vorpal it. Its just too sad when I get 5x the kills of the so called uber fighter with max attack bonus and a bloodstone trying to vorpal stuff when i consistantly kill the highest hp mobs in no time at all.
I carry a vorpal.. I think i tried swining it once when i got it and got frustrated when i killed so slowly.. It hasn't taken a single point of durability dmg, thats how often I used it since i got it months ago.

The endgame needs DPS builds, proper ones. Otherwise you can cheese your way thru them slowly with vorpal, but your really wasting your time. Youd be better off rerolling.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

<snip>

but your really wasting your time. You'd be better off rerolling.

It's ok Shade; don't hold back. Tell us what you really think!

[moorewr]

Well, like the poster above said - you really want one vorpal (and a disrupter) for POP. It's also nice to have one paralyzer in the group, and one curse-spewing. The rest is DPS burst weapons and insta-kill spells.

Most high-level content doesn't give you the breathing room that POP gives you. Madstone for instance - buff like crazy at the entrance, CC spells, DPs, go! I love that first fight, because CC always falls apart and there's enough mobs that everyone has a random initial aggro chasing them around. I have a habit of dying there.

The question is whether the primary melees should be using those weapons. I say give the rogues and casters the special low-damage weapons. I often find my cleric swinging a curse-spewer at red names and hoping I wont get noticed. I also carry a banisher and a paralyzer. The weapon I use the least is my shock holy burst, which is my DPS. After all, I wont hit very often no matter what I'm swinging.

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

To think its the most efficient way to do a high level quest is very sad indeed. You really need to find some good melee to group with. If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future. Even extreme hp mobs like the vampire i can kill with DPS faster then 3 other melee can manage to vorpal it. Its just too sad when I get 5x the kills of the so called uber fighter with max attack bonus and a bloodstone trying to vorpal stuff when i consistantly kill the highest hp mobs in no time at all.
I carry a vorpal.. I think i tried swining it once when i got it and got frustrated when i killed so slowly.. It hasn't taken a single point of durability dmg, thats how often I used it since i got it months ago.

The endgame needs DPS builds, proper ones. Otherwise you can cheese your way thru them slowly with vorpal, but your really wasting your time. Youd be better off rerolling.

[OKCRandy1]

I've been wanting a vorpal since they came out, I've looted all but one loot weekend and I still don't have a vorpal. I'd like to make the argument that perhaps there isn't as much escalation as you think.

[AEschyl]

i'd like to see a vorpal-wielder out kill my double-shocking-burst-rapiers-of-puncturing combination...

and yes, at end game... D&D is all about save or die, save or die, save or die

have fun with your ac/hitpoint builds while they last

[Hendrik]

Vorpal is a tool. Just like any tool, when properly used can be a great asset to the project at hand.

[Bombalo]

Well if the hold 6man is any indication of what is to come vorpals will soon be useless as is since it seems that the devs are compensating by giving lots of mobs deathward/block which stops the vorpal and disruption effects.

[EightyFour]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

QFT tell I get my vorpal. I would at least like to get one before someone decides to consider you're opinion something to consider at all.

[linaewen]

vorpal is nice for a melee bard or a rogue, a real tank should go DPS 90% of the time and switch to vorpal for situational fights.

that s what I do and it works great.

[Boulderun]

Khopesh TWF'ers can use a vorpal as their main weapon and still rack up nearly as much damage as SoS monsters like me. Obviously the real problem here is that khopeshes need nerfing.

[Jaywade]

vorps are overrated, also the fact that so many people have one is clearly way off base, are there more out there sure, but I know lots of players that have a multi capped toon's that don't have one..... I finnaly got one (just recently) I only use it in the 2 rooms in pop like everyone else....

[Kethir]

Agree with OP. When you have 2-3 vorpal wielders of 4 melees, then dps really is just acting as an aggro holder while the vorpals kill.

My comment is don't rely on kill counts so much, and come to grips with high level questing. At high levels, the fighters grab and hold the monster while the casters kill them. That is the way its supposed to be (in D&D), if the fighter is needed at all.

But you're right. Its annoying when the other fighters aren't playing by the same rules, and you're left holding the bag - which while a necessary job, not any of the same old glory as pre mod 4

[Plynx]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their observations that vorpals are currently a situational weapon and overrated as a full-time weapon.

The point I am trying to make is that vorpals and their ilk are a superior weapon choice for some of the endgame mobs who fit the description "difficult to kill with damage". I am worried that this is part of a progression in the game that will ultimately make the game a lot less fun to play.

Some are talking about the relative prevalence of vorpals--trying to assure me that there aren't as many out there as I think. I didn't comment on how many people have them--it makes no difference. I can say that if vorpals become an increasingly effective weapon choice, then the fewer there are, the more of a problem there is.

Some of you bring casters and instakill spells into it--but I missed the parallel you were trying to make.

"x level D&D is all about y": I do hear a lot about what D&D is "supposed to be about" at different levels from lots of different people--I'm a long time D&D player, and I've never found these simplistic statements to have merit. But I won't argue the point, everyone has their own take on the spirit of D&D. I will say: spellcasters in DDO are radically different starting with spell points (so the same PnP checks on balanced spell usage aren't there) and Turbine is obviously still tinkering with it.

Those of you on about your own builds and strategies being better than an unspecified build with vorpals--sure. But this is just a simple question of where the game is going. At least one of you recognizes the power of builds centered around such weapons--and I would hate to see the game skew in that direction as it progresses.

Thanks for your comment, Bombalo--if that's what Turbine's plan is, then I feel better already. I generally have faith in the developers' ability to keep the game enjoyable!

[Neferi]

One problem with vorpals is exactly what Kethir wrote. Vorpals don't contribute much in the way of dps, and so the ranger dual-wielding them isn't going to have to do anything but concentrate on the perfect build for vorpal swinging, while the other people are forced to tank, whether they're melee, casters, or healers. It's frustrating to be a damage dealer and find that you're just about to kill the mob that's been really hurting you and sucking up the cleric's heals, when someone's vorpal goes off. Then you feel like you wasted all the damage you put out, plus the cleric's spell points, and really accomplished nothing because all you really did was tank, and ultimately, why not pull out a shield and just stand there uselessly while the vorpal guy tries to get a lucky roll?

The issue here isn't always the people using vorpals. I can totally understand the need to have one because some of the encounters are pretty tedious without it. The vampire in pop with his ridiculous regeneration and his running around the room constantly make it an annoying fight if all you have is dps. I'm all for pulling out a vorpal or disruptor on him. It's fine that vorpals have their place, but there shouldn't be a lot of situations where a vorpal is clearly the best thing, because then you end up feeling like why not make a build entirely around dual wielding vorpals and just be the vorpal carrier? I like the weapon switching aspects of being a fighter, I love to carry many weapons to pull out the one best suited to an encounter, but if it's always going to be a vorpal, why bother with being a fighter at all? Why not make my build specifically to dual-wield vorpals at high speed? Why doesn't everyone?

As for what groups should and shouldn't do in high level encounters, there are a lot of theories floating around, but what I've *observed* is that in a good group, everyone supports each other. The casters make it easy for the melee to do their job, and the melee in turn do the same for the casters. The same should be true for vorpals. In some places where it's useful to have one, it's worked into the strategy, and seen as just another useful tool, not pulled out against every single mob. Unfortunately, it's become more than just a weapon choice, it's starting to feel like a requirement against more and more mobs.

The way things are now, vorpals are clearly better in some fights. People are always asking "who has a vorpal?" when we do elite content, because having a vorpal is more important there than what build you are and what you can do. This kind of gameplay isn't fun, and I hope it gets addressed soon.