Quest by level summary; lack of high-end content

[Gimpster]

DDO has a problem of insufficient new quest content for high level characters, and it is frustrating to see low and mid-level quests added without addressing the more important shortcomings. In some threads, people have denied the existence of this problem, so I shall demonstrate it numerically below.

DDO has had 11 updates since release (counting the 4.2 update which is only on Risia so far, and the 3.3 update which had a new enhancement system but no quests). Let's define "Something to do" as "Quests at or above your level". Thus, for characters at the level cap, things to do include those quests at or above the level cap- of course they technically can do other stuff, but there generally won't be much challenge or reward.

The level cap was 10 at release, and increased to 12 with module 3 and 14 with module 4.

Here is a list of the number of quests at or above the level cap at the time of each update:
Release: 7
Module1: 9
Module2: 14
Update2.1: 14
Update2.2: 16
Module3: 7
Update3.1: 7
Update3.2: 7
Update3.3: 7
Module4: 5
Update4.1: 5
Update4.2: 5

The trend is obvious: as time went on, there were fewer and fewer quests at (or above) level cap. At first, there was a good pattern, where new high-level quests were added at several updates. But with module 3 that stopped, and from then on only modules themselves had quests at level-cap.

[Gimpster]

self-ninja!

[Gimpster]

Here is a list of the number of quests of each level introduced in each update. This includes timed raids, but excludes non-quest exploration areas and 3 solo-only level 1 quests.

Quests in the updates
Release: 11x1, 19x2, 13x3, 10x4, 11x5, 16x6, 9x7, 6x8, 5x9, 7x10
Module1: 1x6, 2x7, 5x8, 4x9, 2x10
Module2: 3x10, 1x11, 1x12
Update2.1: 4x5, 1x6
Update2.2: 2x7, 1x8, 2x12
Module3: 1x10, 6x11, 4x12
Update3.1: 1x9, 6x11
Update3.2: 4x8, 1x9
Update3.3:
Module4: 6x13, 5x14
Update4.1: 2x10
Update4.2: 1x4

(The above is off by 1 in a few places, but you get the point)

Names of the updates
1.0: Vault of the Dragon
2.0: Twilight Forge
2.1: Litany of the Dead
2.2: Stormreach Under Siege
3.0: Demon Sands
3.1: Evil Resurgent
3.2: Litany of the Dead II
3.3: Academy Training
4.0: Reaver's Bane
4.1: Mark of the Dragon
4.2: Searing Heights

Total quests of each level
1: 14
2: 19
3: 13
4: 11
5: 15
6: 18
7: 13
8: 16
9: 11
10: 15
11: 13
12: 7
13: 6
14: 5

Notice that level 12-14 quests are the least numerous, and the higher the level, the rarer the quest. Level 12-14 quests have around 30-50% the number as the other levels. If there was going to be an inequity in this regard, it should be reversed and biased so that the high level quests are over-represented, because it is the level-capped characters who will be stuck playing the quests in one level and be unable to advance to higher ones.

[Turial]

A good summary of what some of the player base has noticed. The smaller number of high level releases is a little disconcerting as there are a number of players that only play one or two capped characters. Such a population maybe in the minority, compared to those in the mid to lower levels, but that would depend largely on server population.

I wonder if the Devs would comment on the relative level that content in the next couple of mods will be. We know at this point that mod 5 will be roughly 8-10 for quest level unless the cap for the necropolis is going to be of much higher level the the rest of it. If things follow along the current trend there won't be much to do on a capped character except raid and loot. (Don't get me wrong I like raiding and looting but questing is my main goal.)

[Gimpster]

We know at this point that mod 5 will be roughly 8-10 for quest level unless the cap for the necropolis is going to be of much higher level the the rest of it.

We know pretty strongly that Litany of the Dead III will be at least level 14, or even prehaps 15-16. It is a "real" module, and it will follow the pattern of module raids being at or above the level cap. (If that wasn't going to happen, I think we'd have been warned)

But you are correct, the high-level end piece will be out of alignment with the level 4 starting sequence. To fix this, they should just boost up the CR on LOTD1 and LOTD2 so they fit neatly in the sequence. Say level 12-16 total, with monsters, traps, and chests all boosted in power.

[MysticTheurge]

Couldn't there be a slight counter argument to your data that suggests that the problem isn't that they're releasing content too slowly, but that they're increasing the level cap too quickly.

Even if it's not "too quickly" for us, it may simply be "too quickly" for them to keep up with. If the level cap were still 10 wouldn't there be about 22+ "things to do" for level capped characters nowadays?

I'm not suggesting that that would be ideal, I'm just suggesting that there are two ways to look at this data.

On another note, you tend to like pointing out that XP is worthless to capped characters, which means the whole "at or above your level" parameter really only matters if you're looking for (the maximal opportunities for) loot. If you just want to do quests and have fun, then you've got a much wider array of "things to do" available. If it's a question of challenge, at that point, there are pretty simple ways to manage that too. 2 or 3 man level 10 quests and you'll probably find yourself as challenged (if not more) than you are in a full group running Gianthold Elite quests.

Which I think is why some people have issue with your analysis Gimpster (and the conclusions you draw). It pretty much shows that you're only interested in maximizing your highest-possible-level chest to time ratio. The flaw isn't in your numbers, which are, as you point out, irrefutable. The flaw is in your presupposition, the assumption that "things to do" needs to be limited to quests at or above one's level.

[Gimpster]

If you just want to do quests and have fun, then you've got a much wider array of "things to do" available.

The proposition that content such as level 10 Atraxia's Haven quests or level 4 Searing Height exploration can entertain level 14 characters as anything but a brief sightseeing tour is too weak to bear refuting.

If it's a question of challenge, at that point, there are pretty simple ways to manage that too.

That would be game design: creating a new, more challenging game on top of DDO by imposing additional limitations on the player. For example, permadeath players are engaging in game design by inventing their own more-restrictive rules.

For general players, however, there is supposed to be paid professionals doing the game design- it should not be up to the players to say "Hey, lets run the new lowbie quests with no weapons or armor, so we can pretend they're higher-level adventures".

2 or 3 man level 10 quests and you'll probably find yourself as challenged (if not more) than you are in a full group running Gianthold Elite quests.

Actually no. Soloing them isn't too challenging. In fact, I soloed the Atraxia's Haven quests with my level 8 barbarian (which was pretty difficult).

It pretty much shows that you're only interested in maximizing your highest-possible-level chest to time ratio.

It certainly doesn't. What I want is to see the range of possible quests with a high chest/effort ratio to expand beyond only one.

The problem with loot runs is not that they exist, but that they are distinct from other quests. Quests with an inordinately high loot/minute level concentrate attention on the small part of the game that is rewarding to the characters. A better game design would minimize the difference between "Let's get loot!" and "Hey, let's run a few quests".

Ideally, "looting" and "questing" should be roughly synonymous.

[Gimpster]

Couldn't there be a slight counter argument to your data that suggests that the problem isn't that they're releasing content too slowly, but that they're increasing the level cap too quickly.

The fact that the level cap is increasing is a given. Because of customer pressure they had no real option to raise the cap slower than they have been, so rate of cap increase isn't really a variable under consideration.

Even if it's not "too quickly" for us, it may simply be "too quickly" for them to keep up with. If the level cap were still 10 wouldn't there be about 22+ "things to do" for level capped characters nowadays?

In a way it would, but "things to do" decays over time regardless of the level cap going up. It's true that level X quests are obseleted when the cap goes to X+2, but even without a cap raise the same-old things become worn out by time.

Yes, maybe it is too fast for them to keep up with. But if they have insufficient dev resources to produce a stream of quests at or above level cap, then they could have skipped some of the low-level quests which are unpopular anyhow.

[Lillitheris]

We know pretty strongly that Litany of the Dead III will be at least level 14, or even prehaps 15-16. It is a "real" module, and it will follow the pattern of module raids being at or above the level cap. (If that wasn't going to happen, I think we'd have been warned)

According to the story there are 3 vampires, each scribing a tome to aid their lich-lord ascent to godhood. So we still have to do LotD3 before we can get our hands on the big bad guy.

Mod5 will probably include the following:
LotD3 (the last vampire): between levels 12-13, which would be perfectly in tune with the earlier parts (#1 4-5, #2 8-9).
AND
LotD4 (the lich), at the new level cap 15-16, with a high likelyhood of a grande finale raid.

Come to think of it, I'm fairly sure I've seen a Dev refer to Mod5 as LotD3&4.

[The_Cataclysm]

According to the story there are 3 vampires, each scribing a tome to aid their lich-lord ascent to godhood. So we still have to do LotD3 before we can get our hands on the big bad guy.

Mod5 will probably include the following:
LotD3 (the last vampire): between levels 12-13, which would be perfectly in tune with the earlier parts (#1 4-5, #2 8-9).
AND
LotD4 (the lich), at the new level cap 15-16, with a high likelyhood of a grande finale raid.

Come to think of it, I'm fairly sure I've seen a Dev refer to Mod5 as LotD3&4.

Pretty sure it is listed as LotD3&4 in the newsletter. Of course, they have also said that Mod 5 will not include a level cap increase.

[Thrudh]

DDO has a problem of insufficient new quest content for high level characters, and it is frustrating to see low and mid-level quests added without addressing the more important shortcomings. In some threads, people have denied the existence of this problem, so I shall demonstrate it numerically below.

DDO has had 11 updates since release (counting the 4.2 update which is only on Risia so far, and the 3.3 update which had a new enhancement system but no quests). Let's define "Something to do" as "Quests at or above your level". Thus, for characters at the level cap, things to do include those quests at or above the level cap- of course they technically can do other stuff, but there generally won't be much challenge or reward.

The level cap was 10 at release, and increased to 12 with module 3 and 14 with module 4.

Here is a list of the number of quests at or above the level cap at the time of each update:
Release: 7
Module1: 9
Module2: 14
Update2.1: 14
Update2.2: 16
Module3: 7
Update3.1: 7
Update3.2: 7
Update3.3: 7
Module4: 5
Update4.1: 5
Update4.2: 5

The trend is obvious: as time went on, there were fewer and fewer quests at (or above) level cap. At first, there was a good pattern, where new high-level quests were added at several updates. But with module 3 that stopped, and from then on only modules themselves had quests at level-cap.

These are BS numbers since you don't include level 13 quests (and I'm assuming level 11 and level 9 quests)...

Module 4 did not give us 5 quests for capped players to play, instead it gave us 11 quests... which is a lot... And they are all very different quests... very well done...

They DO need to match up exp/treasure with risk... PoP should give less exp and less treasure than the Crucible and Madstone for instance. I kinda like the idea of the the dynamic exp/loot based on how many times an instance is run... not sure how/if that should be implemented.

The problem is simple... You play too much.

You'll never be happy... Stop playing so much...

I went into that Mine quest in the Haven with 6 level 9s and 10s... it was hard... We nearly wiped at least once... I'm glad you could solo it with your 8th level twinked out barbarian...

You are a victim of your own success... Your builds and/or your equipment are so freaking awesome that nothing is fun for you anymore...

I'm all for more high-end content... The fact that you ignored the 6 very well done 13th level quests in Gianthold tells me you're dishonest...

I'm sorry the game isn't progressing fast enough for ya... maybe you should get a second hobby....

[Gimpster]

These are BS numbers since you don't include level 13 quests (and I'm assuming level 11 and level 9 quests)...

You're saying quests at cap-1 should count as content appropriate for capped characters? In reality, they're better for characters who are still on their way to being capped (especially since the level 13 Gianthold quests have turned out to be popular with level 10 characters on normal mode). Fine, I'll recount for that condition.

Here is a list of the number of quests at or above the level cap minus one at the time of each update:
Release: 12
Module1: 18
Module2: 23
Update2.1: 23
Update2.2: 25
Module3: 14
Update3.1: 20
Update3.2: 20
Update3.3: 20
Module4: 11
Update4.1: 11
Update4.2: 11

Any way you slice it, there is less variety in content for capped characters. The number of quests at cap is now around 50% of what it was for most of the previous game lifespan. From this perspective, there has never been as few choices for capped characters as there is now.

[MysticTheurge]

Any way you slice it, there is less variety in content for capped characters. The number of quests at cap is now around 50% of what it was for most of the previous game lifespan. From this perspective, there has never been as few choices for capped characters as there is now.

Which means this is just another complaint that they haven't released high level content in the last two updates. And while I agree, it doesn't really say anything, except they should get on the ball and release some more high-level content.

That said, I can understand, to a degree, that they're working on getting the wilderness area quest thing rolled out and retrofitted. It might've been smarter to retrofit two old areas and release a couple high-level quests instead of retrofitting two old areas and release some mid- and low-level stuff, but it's just plain too late for that to change.

[GeneralDiomedes]

When Mod 5 is released the balance will be restored and then some IMO. Releasing a couple of level 14 quests now would keep people's attention for about an hour or two. There is just no point. Let the bored capped players take a month or two off.

The fact of the matter is DDO has so much room to grow in terms of subscription numbers that devoting all of their development resources to capped players that only want to play their capped players probably isn't their best ROI.

And I like the idea of a server wide ransack .. except I think it should be in the risk side as well as the reward side. If more people run the quests, they get harder.

[ahpook]

Which means this is just another complaint that they haven't released high level content in the last two updates. And while I agree, it doesn't really say anything, except they should get on the ball and release some more high-level content.

Well that was the whole point of this thread according to the OP. Gimpster was merely trying to provide data to back up this claim since posters in other threads did not agree with that view point.

[Kawiki]

Let me get this straight, some of you are actually proposing that the loot quality of a quest should be based on how many times that quest has been run globally? That may be the most ignorant idea I have ever heard on these forums.

To fundamentally change the process in this way would be on of the worst things you can do to get people to stop running PoP.

Ummm... why wouldn't Turbine just rebalance the quest in question?

or let time solve the problem, once the level CAP goes up people are not going to be running PoP anyway. When was the last time you saw an LFM for Giant Caves??

To even suggest something that is so game changing because one quest currently is not balanced and over run is ludicrous.

[Berjik]

I agree that they should implement more higher level quests, my reasoning is that at level 11-14 I am utterly bored with Gianthold quests as myself and most here have run them into the ground. I haven't been playing much lately because I feel like I am running on auto-pilot through these quests (as I am sure others are), I'm a huge challenge junkie and auto-pilot is not challenging.

It would be nice to see more questing options for people who like to be challenged. Going with this is that since Level 14 Gianthold quests have such hot XP rewards(loot and end rewards), 99%(yeh yeh it was made up but you get my point) of groups 11-14 will run these quests for exp and loot.

Even though adding more high level quests = more looting options = more Monty haul while I think this is a valid argument against adding higher level quests at the same time I think it isn't (sorry if this doesn't make sense I'll try to explain).

It's all about time invested. Whether you running potp 10 times to ransack in 4 hours or a new high level quest 10 times to ransack in 4 hours, it's still an equal time investment, which is what MMO's are all about, time-investment = more sub money.

From experience most players have more then one high level character and will run and ransack those, which is more time invested, so really what's the difference in the 2 scenarios above? None, at least I think there isn't.

Wouldn't it be nice that there was enough content that when you logged in you could see:

LFM
11-14 - Gianthold Quests
11-14 - New high level content
11-14 - Antaraxia Haven Q's
11-14 - More new High Level Content
11-14 - Wiz King(even though it's rare to see this run nowadays)

Rather then groups competing for the few players lfg all trying to do Potp or some other gianthold quest? Why not give the LFG a choice...hmmm do I want to do X or Y today.. or maybe Z. Choices aren't a bad thing!

Which brings up another point/siderant.

TURBINE your QUESTS ARE TOO EASY!!!!!

Scale Elite Mobs level by 2 additional levels and Hard(is a joke cuz it ain't hard) into the current Elite difficulty, Leave normal as is.

Norm- As is
Hard Level +2
Elite Level +4

When I play in a guild group there is almost no challenge to this game. I don't mind party wipes because it inspires tactics (remember when invaders first came out..OMFG)

I am so bored running the same content at high level over and over that I have canceled my subscription(end aug.4) and have gone back to playing NWN2 pw's for now, this isn't permanent and chances are I'll be back sometime. It's not because I hate this game or have problems with gameplay or getting into groups or anything like that, it's just plain ol' boring now with the high elvel content available.

I want to add that I don't fault Turbine for this, 100% likely is that they don't have the money or man/woman power to do this which is such a pity for the Best MMO I've ever played.

So to sum it up.....

/signed

Berj.

****...this turne out a lot longer then I planned.