PvP???

[Raithe]

So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other?

You are aware that competition between players, whether to the death or simply to see who can jump the farthest, is all PvP. Yes, you have to have competition between players in an MMO. Without it, the world stagnates, there are no player storylines, and there's never anyone around who's been there for more than a few years.

Can you have events like the "Stormreach Olympics" without enabling people to environmentally interact with each other? Sure you can. With the incredible 3D engine that we use in the game it can even be interesting. It's not why I picked a fantasy role-playing game, however. You could have "the Sims Online Olympics" or any other variation and the contest would be nearly identical.

I find it hard to believe that I have to actually explain everything that they've removed from the true D&D game by PvP-proofing it. It really doesn't have much to do with killing:

1) There is never any uncertainty about who is friend and who is foe. Subterfuge and deception aren't part of the game. Rogues could actually have a place in the game if they were.

2) As mentioned before, all wizard AoE damage spells become much less tricky to wield. While many people probably think this is a good thing, I think that strategy and tactics in gameplay took a serious kick to the groin.

3) Alignments and affiliations don't mean anything. A paladin and an assassin perform the same daily duties.

4) Most importantly, every enemy is a stupid one that doesn't play by the same rules you do.

And your counter argument is wrong, they have stated that what we see for PvP is what we'll see for PvP in the future, nothing more will be done with it, it's a non-entity on the dev's to-do lists. The game was actually touted as NOT having PvP, read the interviews again, they were pretty clear that it wasn't going to be in the game and wasn't a factor to be considered. Many of us were disappointed by the addition of PvP to shut up the vocal minority who whined, cried and screamed until it was added. Please note that almost a year after PvP was added, NOTHING has been done with it, not a **** thing. Devs said they wouldn't do anything more with PvP and so far, they've kept their word and that makes most of the player base very happy.

Please provide the developer quote link so that I can avoid wasting my time further.

[Gimpster]

Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.

Wrong. The idea that David Eckleberry was somehow the driving force behind adding PvP is ludicrous.

[Ken_Dorak]

So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other? Am I getting that correct? Are you on meds or something we should be aware of? Violent interaction between people supposedly working TOGETHER isn't the norm, are you aware of this? This isn't Quake or Unreal or whatever, this is DDO, a game based on cooperative play, not shiving your teammates at the most opportune moment.

This made me laugh. Ah, good times.

Anyway ...


I could go into another complex dissection of what has been said since my last points were made from previous posters and ramble on and on about game mechanics, the developer's game plan, why PvP wasn't included to begin with, why it was added later, why the game isn't exactly on par with pen & paper D&D ... or, I could simply state the obvious. Again.

If you like DDO, play DDO. If you like PvP and don't care for DDO's version, suck up what you paid for the product since your interpretation of "player interaction" was off from what the next guy's interpretation of it was and go find a game where you can r0xx0r your s0x off by killing other people the old fashioned way - unmonitored and grief-tastic!

In other words, get over this whole PvP debate.

[OKCRandy1]

I'm okay with any thread discussing improvements for any part of the game, including those I have no interest. I don't want to be stabbed in the back as I go through the Marketplace, but if someone enjoys the tavern brawls and it needs a little love to be a better feature, then I suppose it makes sense to have some constructive suggestions for the devs.

I haven't seen a good case made for PvP in DDO at all, doesn't make sense to me for instanced questing to have much more than the taverns.

[Raithe]

I don't want to be stabbed in the back as I go through the Marketplace, ...

But you are perfectly fine getting ganked by an orc shaman? I would say you have pretty big issues separating your game persona from who you are in real life.

I see little reason for this thread to have been resurrected, except somebody's ego needed to be maintained.

I think it's pretty clear that that is also the main issue to be overcome when any discussion of PvP is introduced.

[Lebrac]

To all u people out there hateing on PVP... pls stop it is a VERY fun part of this game and gives people something to do in while waiting for groups. NOw with this said. the ranting is going to start

All the people that HATE pvp are ppl who can't think outside of the box they have it in there heads of the only way the game can be played inside doungens and can not adapt to PVP. PVP is 100% different style of gameplay then killing mobs in quest and for this people who do not have the talent to get good at 2 things HATE it.

Now it's story tiem. When PVP 1st came out i HATED it 100% because it was DIFFERENT then questing but as time went on and i took a step back and looked at how i could do it better. NOw i have a TON of fun trying to learn other peoples way to kill me and counter it. NOW this also makes me run quests much better because when people see things as a strugle i see them as how do i get action a done without getting hit or killed by action B.

LAst thing if u dont' like pvp that is fine it's not a WORLD wide thing it's only is area's of the game and it has been put in the game and should be looked at. The CTF and the other arena's need a TON of love since i have not been even able to go into one in ages.

For those of us that ENJOY the pvp time we put in i would like to say again it would be spectaculare if there was a way to make a PVP zone that could be entered by all servers so that we could get some new blood and learn even more new tactics for the game.

[Ziggy]

TO all those that hate the haters.

PvP was an after thought. The best thing you can probably ask for is for them to fix the deathmatch and capture the flag issues. THe idea that you cant choose your own teams or setup the match the way you want it.

To expect them to add an instance where you can fight cross server is silly expectation.

not an attack on any poster specifically. just the way i view things

[Lebrac]

ziggy the area from all servers it's not something i expect... i would just say it would be a very cool thing to learn how other servers PVP and be able to adept and improve the skill lvl even more. not expected at all


Fixing the CTF and arean's should be expected since it's already in the game...

[Roguewiz]

PvP Combat has no place in DDO. I'm not saying PvP is bad, I'm just saying it isn't good for DDO. It was poorly implemented, particularly because I don't feel enough testing went into it. Balance was not taken into consideration. With DPS, HP, and AC being heavily inflated anyways due to enhancements...PvP heavily favors those people. Skill, in all honesty, isn't really needed either. With good equipment, you can pretty much end any fight quickly (or slowly with the following Example)

14 Barbarian three shots a 14 ranger (40str raging, with power attack and a great axe)

14 Rogue with two paralyzers, jumps said barbarian, and keeps her permalyzed (new word =p ), goes afk for a drink while the barbarian can't do a **** thing.

If it wasn't for the two paralyzers, I would have died. But because barbarians have low will saves anyways (coupled with the fact that I was hasted, and I have imp two weapon fighting), she could not get un-paralyzed. She died about a minute later (freaking DR and hp)


I miss the days of true skill, where you could use Stealth tactics in games like Shadowbane, to slowly dwindle down a raiding group at a Resource Mine. (mainly because they were too dumb to not chase you)

[KristovK]

Raithe, the Search function doesn't show posts from before April, much less from last year, so finding the actual posts involved isn't possible. Try searching Google or Yahoo, the interviews and intitial adverts for DDO can be found on them.

Sorry you didn't pay attention to the subject when it was a new one and the devs made their position clear on it, but not my problem.

PvP is what it is, deal with it if it's something that you MUST have, most of the playerbase don't care for it at all. This isn't WoW or EQ or UO or any of the other MMOs out there, that should be pretty obvious pretty quickly. There are NO player altered world events, NO player storylines outside of RP...the players have 0 effect on the world or storyline(there ARE multiple storylines going on in case you haven't noticed).

Friendly fire being off..well..I didn't like that at first, but I quickly realized it's a good thing. Online games tend to have more then enough people who try to disrupt gameplay and ruin other people's time, no reason to LET them have the ability to purposely kill an entire party and just say 'oops' over voice chat while you hear them giggling. We get enough people trying this sort of **** as it is with specific measures in place to prevent it. I can see it now...finish the Reaver..wiz sees something he wants in the warded chest, so he grabs the stones and nukes the party...'oops' as he takes the warded items.

Personally, I would suggest you go back to whatever MMO allowed you the ability to alter the world directly, directly alter the storylines AND have the ability to accidently nuke your entire party in the process. I can't actually think of any MMO out that does all that, but I admit to not being very well versed in most of them, so perhaps there's one that fits these criteria, and you can enjoy that one.

[Dariun]

The best thing you can probably ask for is for them to fix the deathmatch and capture the flag issues. THe idea that you cant choose your own teams or setup the match the way you want it.

I'm neither for nor against PVP, but I do hate seeing things done badly.

Not letting players manually set up the teams for the team-oriented PVP (party v. party) has always seemed really really dumb to me. I'm not really into it, but I can sure see how it would be a lot of fun for a group of friends to put together parties to face off against each other.

[Gimpster]

Not letting players manually set up the teams for the team-oriented PVP (party v. party) has always seemed really really dumb to me.

You can... somewhat... in an implicit way that might not always work. Basically, form two parties and have everyone sign up for the same CTF game, and your two selected parties will be sucked into the PVP world intact.

[Ken_Dorak]

*yawn*

We're still going on about this? I didn't realize this was going to turn in to a congressional debate. The first person who starts a fillibuster will get shot.

PvP combat is good in some games. Not all, but some. It has nothing to do with the implementation of PvP in most games (although it is a factor is some), it is how the game was designed that makes the difference.

Quake (and its' sequels) was designed for PvP. Guild Wars was designed for PvP. Hell - even Ultima Online was designed for PvP.

DDO was not designed for PvP. That, is obvious. Just participating in a PvP match in DDO is grating due to the fact that the game mechanics make it incredibly poor and advantaged to whomever has the more uber weapon/spell. There are no tactics, no strategy, it is luck of the draw. If I paralyze/smite/vorpal you first - I win. And it works the other way too. Big deal.

The game mechanics work great for the dungeon crawl, but not for PvP. I agree, they should fix what is already there so it functions properly but that is it. PvP is not broken, because it was never intended to be in DDO. By massive whining from players and game reviewers being "disappointed" that DDO didn't have PvP - they added the ability to kill one another in certain areas. It's not really PvP combat, but it's as close as it will get. No rewards, no xp, no nothing.

They'll get around to fixing the leaderboards and CTF, but other than that let us all move on.

Thank you, have a nice day.

[Lebrac]

*yawn*

DDO was not designed for PvP. That, is obvious. Just participating in a PvP match in DDO is grating due to the fact that the game mechanics make it incredibly poor and advantaged to whomever has the more uber weapon/spell. There are no tactics, no strategy, it is luck of the draw. If I paralyze/smite/vorpal you first - I win. And it works the other way too. Big deal.


Thank you, have a nice day.

..... THis quote from u PROVES to me that u are unwilling to learn or grow in your gameplay that is why u think the way u do about PVP... u have no idea how much strategy goes into a well though out PVP in the pit. this can be proven by the builds some ppl have came up with just for pvp. can also be proven by the gameplay of the people that PVP more in quests by how they more quickly react to things going against the plans of the group.

[Ken_Dorak]

Sure. And you are obviously the God of Player vs. Player combat. Congrats, I praise thee oh mighty one.

You tell me it takes strategy, I saw it doesn't. You say this, I say that. Big deal. You're right - I have absolutely no interest in PvP. Does that mean I don't understand it? You're wrong there. The difference is that I don't care.

PvP is not what DDO is about. Get over it.

[gelgoog]

as much as i don't like pvp it would benefit the ddo game if it was good and fair.

guild wars, bf 2142, halos and other pvp, pvp team mmo games that have a good battle system for that go into the mainstream for tornaments. with sponsers and such. i know fps are the main but guildwars works and yeah it's point and click but its a sound combat system. ddo can have that as well if not better.

maybe make it turned based instead for pvp in ddo.
hmmm that could work. since it's just quick fights.
also vorpals, para and uber weapons would be nullified upon entering would be good.

but yeah ddos pvp needs a big rework even though i don't like it too much it really would help the game get more people playing it if it was a known good team mmo pvp.

turned based pvp could work really well for ddo the more i think about it.
hmmmmm.

/shrug

[Raithe]

Sure. And you are obviously the God of Player vs. Player combat. Congrats, I praise thee oh mighty one.

You tell me it takes strategy, I saw it doesn't. You say this, I say that. Big deal. You're right - I have absolutely no interest in PvP. Does that mean I don't understand it? You're wrong there. The difference is that I don't care.

PvP is not what DDO is about. Get over it.

One of the best ways to have a thread and posters "get over it" is to stop posting, which brings it to the top of the page.

Especially when it had been killed 2 days ago.

[Akiira69]

There you go, making the silly statement, even after you just emphasized that it was an online gaming term.

Apparently you can not read i did not say DDO i said AD&D as in the Pen and Paper version. I suggest you learn to read english before you put your foot in your mouth.

You are aware that competition between players, whether to the death or simply to see who can jump the farthest, is all PvP. Yes, you have to have competition between players in an MMO. Without it, the world stagnates, there are no player storylines, and there's never anyone around who's been there for more than a few years.

Do you even know what PvP stands for? It means Player vs Player or Player Killer. It is to the death there is no other meaning so unless youve been hiding under a rock or behind a bunch of carebears for the past 10 years. you would know that by now. please do us all a favor and not comment on things you have shown you have absoluely no knowledge about.

[Belfalcon]

thare is no point to PvP i hope thay dont waste any time on PvP.
if you like PvP and would like to see cross server PvP go to world of warcraft. then. you can pvp it up with all the kids

I would LOVE to someday see cross server PVP... because PVPing the same people all the time does get a little old at times. and it would be great fun to have to adapt to a new style of PVP from others since most people on the server i play on PVP alot alike.

A tourny to take the top say 5 or 10 people from Melle type classes and caster type classes from each server and 100% copy there char's to risia then have the finals played there would be a great way to do this.

[Ziggy]

*cougheckleberrycough*

That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.

Wrong. The idea that David Eckleberry was somehow the driving force behind adding PvP is ludicrous.

Apparently Gimpster is correct. It appears Ken troop had a hand in the pot back in aug 2005
http://ddo.stratics.com/content/hoclogs/hoc_0805.php

Brannoc - *Sinteres* PvP elements, any at all? If so, will there be any meaning (profit, territory) to battle, or will it be for personal pride?
KenTroop - We're not doing PvP in DDO for launch...PvP is not an essential element of the D&D experience, and that's ultimately what are lodestone is -- recapturing that tabletop experience and bringing it to life in a MMP.
KenTroop - Eckelberry's answer nails it -- we're not like other MMPs, because we're not trying to be...we want to be the quintessential D&D experience that you can play with your friends.
KenTroop - It's why we instance our dungeons -- private playgrounds for you and your friends without interference, it's why we don't have grinding -- D&D is not about standing in one spot and killing the same monster over and over again, it's why we don't run everywhere -- D&D is about fun adventure, not travelling for 10 minutes to get to the fun.
EckelberryDDO - Moreover, i can tell you that the D&D game system doesn't really embrace the idea of PvP. Beyond the fact that D&D is all about teamplay and teamwork, even the base spells of D&D like hold person make it very troubling to make a PvP game. After all, we dont care when you cast hold person on a goblin and ruin its gameplay experience. But if you cast it on a fighter and he can do nothing but fail a save and die... well, that
EckelberryDDO - ... well, thats not very fun.