PvP???

[Uska]

UMM who cares never wanted it or saw a need for it anyways done pvp in a game designed for it had fun didnt want to see it here never really saw dnd as a pnp game in my 30+ years of playing I could proably count on one hand the number of times I was involved in pvp and still have fingers left over. We played heros as thats how we saw the game and how E.G.G. intended it.

[Uska]

Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

Umm your wrong and accidently miscalculating a fireball isnt pvp nor is accidently shooting a party member with an arrow while they are in the middle of melee.

[TechNoFear]

Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

DM's are the PnP equivilent of the Environment.

Player/s v DM == PvE
Player/s v DM != PvP

I think if there was the actual in game demand for PvP it would get more attention.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

I am sorry but I think you just made a sillier statement.....

[Ken_Dorak]

Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

Bah.

Point is, DDO is not a PvP game. While it has it's little niche area for meatheads to poke eachother with a stick, it's not in the fundamentals of how they built the game and honestly - it was just added to shut people up in the first place.

"No PvP!!!?!?!?!!111oneone Thez g4m3 iz teh suXX0r!!!!111oneone"

[Zuran]

if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

[Braddock_Tharmwell]

if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

"Holy large can of Worms there!"

And how would you propose that said Rewards for the 2 seperate areas be determined? How much XP would the loser get exactly?

[Ken_Dorak]

if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

Why, that's ingenious.

Let's take a game that is based upon questing and cooperative play and delve out experience points and loot to guys who want to defeat the purpose of the game (and in a sense, Dungeons & Dragons all together) and make them happy for the sake of happiness.

Seriously, this game was NOT designed for PvP. The current PvP sucks and for a good reason - the way the game is designed is for player characters to join up in groups and kill mobs of bad guys. We have low hit points, high attack and damage weapons (and spells) and they work well in one area - questing. There is absolutely no realistic way to make Player vs. Player combat a realistic system in DDO. With real-time combat and the lack of an initiative roll, there is no way for two equally matched characters to have an honest dual. Two level 14 fighters dual wielding a paralyzer and a vorpal that are the exact same uber build with the exact same amount of hit points, identical armor, etc. would still be unbalanced no matter what "l33t c00ln3ss" they added for PvP. Whoever got the first critical hit would either paralyze their opponent and then vorpal him, or vorpal him immediately. It's a "whoever by chance hits whom first" kind of thing.

I'm not debunking PvP, because it has it's roll in some games. Frankly, I'm saying that DDO doesn't need PvP and if you want PvP in DDO, you should be thankful for what you have. The game was designed to NOT have PvP to begin with, but due to public outcry (from both players and critics) it was added and nobody has been happy with it since. No (not happy word for "poo poo")? PvP in DDO isn't what you hoped for? It shouldn't be. Again, the game's mechanics were never designed for PvP.

To change PvP to be on equal grounds for both players would either break the current game (yeah, that's worth it) or you'd be forced to build an entirely seperate mechanic to determine how to balance PvP for those contests. Either way, it's a big time sink for so few people who would actually use it.

There are enough people on these forums who gripe about people wanting stuff added like the ability to see their cloaks and boots on their character, and call it fluff and not worthy of developer time. I say then, that adding xp rewards and "neat-a-riffic" items specially for PvP players falls under the same category, if not a lower and more worthless one.

Why?

Probably half the population would keep their showcloak and showboots on. Adding more junk to a broke system that people won't even use is truly, honestly wasting developer time and Turbine's money.


In summary, let me state this again:

If you like PvP, go play a PvP game. If you like DDO, then play DDO.

It really is that simple.

Sheesh.

[Raithe]

DM's are the PnP equivilent of the Environment.

Yes they are. They are also the PnP equivalent of an opposing player. The problem with D&D is that there really is no difference between PvE and PvP - you simply can't make the distinction the same way you can in a MUD, MMO, or other computer game.

So saying that D&D is not about "PvP" becomes even sillier, because not only is it untrue if you logically apply the term, there is really no reason to even try to apply the term.

The bottom line is that D&D is all about player interaction, something that simple logic programming just can't replicate. If you want a D&D MMO to succeed, player interaction should be emphasized, not relegated to cooperative combat maneuvering, healing, buffing, and griefing.

[Newtons_Apple]

It's absolutely worthless to even bother putting PvP into a game like DDO.

The reasoning behind it, is that in this game you have PCs with very powerful "to hit" weapons and low hit point counts. This is due to high hit point counts on monsters to increase quest difficulty.

Every PvP match I've seen looks like this:

__________________________

PC #1 and PC #2 enter the PvP pit.

One of them hits the other with a paralyzer or whatever, to stop them dead in their tracks.

Two hits later, a ghost is running back to the tavern to rez.

__________________________


PvP isn't broken in DDO. It's simply pointless as the rest of the game is designed for other purposes and implementing the ability for PCs to dual is pointless and will always be unmatched. To change PvP, you'd have to change the entire mechanic of the game and that - my friends - will never happen.

You like PvP? Play something else. DDO is for cooperative play. It was created that way and will always be built around that theory. Period.

Well said my well saying friend.

[Hendrik]

That the multiple glaringly obvious shortcomings present since it's release have no been fixed.

I mean, have you tried to get into a simple 1v1 duel with another character? How hard is that?

Yea, I have. Pretty easy to accomplish as well.

[Hendrik]

if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place. if they were doing it to 'just stop people from complaining' well then they have failed. i am not suggesting that they revamp the game and make PvP worldwide. i am merely saying that they should fix the system they have already placed in game, and add some rewards to playing it; as opposed to simply ignoring it. this way those who hate PvP could play the game never having to deal w/ it, and those who love it can enjoy it and gain some reward from it. why not toss some xp to the victors of each round, and some items to the top players?? PvP'ers could gain nice items from the arena, and dungeon crawlers would continue to pull their phat lewts from chests... and i am sure the majority would enjoy a bit of both.

Never going to happen in DDO.

[sigtrent]

I just want a better match making system, one that spans all the taverns and lets you assign teams manualy etc..

The PvP system itself is fine. It isn't balanced but so long as you check your ego at the door, its pretty fun. Anyone can be killed with the right attack and there are all kinds of different strategies to use.

I like the tavern fighting for the occasional ruckus, but the arenas are near useless due to the matching system. The fiew times we got it to work it was fun, but it was difficult and unintuitive and you pretty much have to bring your own crew to make it work.

Personaly I most enjoy my bard and my wizard for PvP. Although with my bard I alway make it my goal to stay alive more than to kill others.

[Akiira69]

Threads like this are so frustrating.

Dungeons and Dragons(tm) has never been anything BUT player versus player. Whether it's two roleplaying player characters bickering with each other, or the dungeon master controlling a giant snake against a group of adventurers, it is all human player versus human player. It is the core, essential ingredient of D&D that has been dramatically muffled by DDO.

Even when a wizard in PnP targets a fireball spell and miscalculates the area of effect somewhat, it causes damage to everyone within its blast radius, regardless if friend or foe.

Saying that D&D is not about PvP is about as silly a statement as anyone can make.

If AD&D is nothing but PvP then please tell me the title of the rule book so that i might understand it better. I have read rule books as far back as 2.0e rule set and never once did i see any rules governing PvP. PvP as we know it today is an ONLINE GAMING TERM. It never has been and imo never should be a part of AD&D. It promotes childish gameplay and drives away people who just want to play and meet new people. they cant do that when a lvl 14 is ganking a lvl 3 just because he can.

[MysticTheurge]

if DDO is not a PvP game then why did they put add it in the first place.

*cougheckleberrycough*

[Raithe]

If AD&D is nothing but PvP then please tell me the title of the rule book so that i might understand it better. I have read rule books as far back as 2.0e rule set and never once did i see any rules governing PvP.

There doesn't need to be any rules governing it because it's exactly the same as the rest of the game. The only distinction you could really make is in one case the dungeon master makes the decisions in combat and in the opposite case one of the "players" makes the decision.

In DDO, we don't really have a dungeon master. We just have environment. Which is why everyone needs to become each other's DM. Imagine if the game masters randomly took control of characters and monsters throughout the game... would they really be any different than just another subscriber?

No, they wouldn't.

PvP as we know it today is an ONLINE GAMING TERM.

This sentence I agree with. But...

It never has been and imo never should be a part of AD&D.

There you go, making the silly statement, even after you just emphasized that it was an online gaming term.

It promotes childish gameplay and drives away people who just want to play and meet new people. they cant do that when a lvl 14 is ganking a lvl 3 just because he can.

No, what is already driving people away is the lack of interaction in the game. People who have been playing for a year and 4 months have exhausted their ability to make fun out of "PvE." For me, it wouldn't matter if the developers released 700 new dungeons this month, I've already been through enough of their designs. Every single one of those 700 dungeons would feel like the same old same old, just as Gianthold did and most of the Desert did before that.

I'm never going to promise that enabling player interaction isn't going to draw a bunch of immature behavior into the game. (I happen to think a lot of that behavior is already in the game, and isn't any better than getting "ganked.") Dealing with several immature combatants is preferable to me than dealing with no one at all.

[Gimpster]

*cougheckleberrycough*

That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

[Rokurgepta]

That is an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

Insulting to whom? Its most likely the truth, like it or not.

[KristovK]

PvP works as it was advertised...oh...wait..it wasn't advertised because it wasn't part of the original game plan...oops!

Funny, but the devs have stated in the past that PvP is what it is, it'll stay what it is, and that's all it'll be. Reasoning for this...it wasn't part of the game plan, the devs didn't want to add it, and it was only added to placate a very vocal minority who just wouldn't shut up about it.

No rewards for PvP...no xp, no loot, no stats to use for bragging rights, nada, zip, zilch.

Again it's working as advertised...just keep in mind, it was never advertised, so you are getting exactly what you were promised.

[Raithe]

PvP works as it was advertised...oh...wait..it wasn't advertised because it wasn't part of the original game plan...oops!

Funny, but the devs have stated in the past that PvP is what it is, it'll stay what it is, and that's all it'll be. Reasoning for this...it wasn't part of the game plan, the devs didn't want to add it, and it was only added to placate a very vocal minority who just wouldn't shut up about it.

No rewards for PvP...no xp, no loot, no stats to use for bragging rights, nada, zip, zilch.

Again it's working as advertised...just keep in mind, it was never advertised, so you are getting exactly what you were promised.

It was never advertised? That's your counter argument?

Out of all the computer games sitting on the shelf at the end of February in 2006, I picked DDO out because of its Dungeons & Dragons label and I knew enough about MMOs and D&D to make me believe that it would be a sophisticated game that would focus heavily on player interaction. I was pretty close on the sophisticated part and I was incredibly surprised by the graphics quality and attention to atmospheric detail... but the shock that ran through my system the first time I saw a caster throw out an AoE spell and it didn't hurt any friendlies, was enormous. I had to take a few days away from the game I was so annoyed and irritated.

Player interaction was "advertised" simply by association with the D&D label...

and my counter "argument" is that (contrary to your claim) they haven't ever advertised that they won't include additional player on player (team on team) game mechanics.

If they ever did, you can happily expect to never hear from me again on any of these forums.

[KristovK]

It was never advertised? That's your counter argument?

Out of all the computer games sitting on the shelf at the end of February in 2006, I picked DDO out because of its Dungeons & Dragons label and I knew enough about MMOs and D&D to make me believe that it would be a sophisticated game that would focus heavily on player interaction. I was pretty close on the sophisticated part and I was incredibly surprised by the graphics quality and attention to atmospheric detail... but the shock that ran through my system the first time I saw a caster throw out an AoE spell and it didn't hurt any friendlies, was enormous. I had to take a few days away from the game I was so annoyed and irritated.

Player interaction was "advertised" simply by association with the D&D label...

and my counter "argument" is that (contrary to your claim) they haven't ever advertised that they won't include additional player on player (team on team) game mechanics.

If they ever did, you can happily expect to never hear from me again on any of these forums.

So...let me get this straight...your idea of player interaction is PvP? Characters trying to kill each other? Am I getting that correct? Are you on meds or something we should be aware of? Violent interaction between people supposedly working TOGETHER isn't the norm, are you aware of this? This isn't Quake or Unreal or whatever, this is DDO, a game based on cooperative play, not shiving your teammates at the most opportune moment.

And your counter argument is wrong, they have stated that what we see for PvP is what we'll see for PvP in the future, nothing more will be done with it, it's a non-entity on the dev's to-do lists. The game was actually touted as NOT having PvP, read the interviews again, they were pretty clear that it wasn't going to be in the game and wasn't a factor to be considered. Many of us were disappointed by the addition of PvP to shut up the vocal minority who whined, cried and screamed until it was added. Please note that almost a year after PvP was added, NOTHING has been done with it, not a **** thing. Devs said they wouldn't do anything more with PvP and so far, they've kept their word and that makes most of the player base very happy.