Raid Loot & Morale

[QuantumFX]

This brings up an interesting point. Since people can still duo DQ on a regular basis why not revisit the original "Dragon Scale" idea when VoN was the only warded chest raid.

In that case it was collect 12 scales and you go get to choose a bound item from the warded chest drops. (ala Invaders tokens) Everyone would have a reason to run the quest multiple times and everyone gets a reward eventually.

Advantages:
- It discourages soloing/douing for anything other than bragging rights.
- It gives casual/unlucky players a more positive outlook on the quest.
- It encourages repetition.
- It encourages people to make larger groups and possibly PuG a raid.

[Gimpster]

Advantages:
- It discourages soloing/douing for anything other than bragging rights.
- It gives casual/unlucky players a more positive outlook on the quest.
- It encourages repetition.
- It encourages people to make larger groups and possibly PuG a raid.

Those are either incorrect, or disadvantages.

It does not encourage repetition any more than the existing system. Casual players may actually get LESS loot than under the existing system, because today it's typical for a casual player to run a raid once and get both items (the other players don't roll for them, because they often already have them).

And encouraging larger raid groups just so you can get more pulls at the chest, and not because the raid is hard and you need help to complete it is just bad. The big reason to bring characters into a quest should be to win the quest, not to multiply the loot output of the quest.

[QuantumFX]

And encouraging larger raid groups just so you can get more pulls at the chest, and not because the raid is hard and you need help to complete it is just bad.

Dammit I thought something would be inspecific about this...

OK, lets see if I can clarify. Lets use Velah as an example. Rather than a warded chest we have 2 standard chests. You loot normally. As soon as you recall and turn in your quest (thereby resetting the timer) you get a bound item (Dragon Scale, Kundarak Seal, whatever).

As soon as you get 12 of these items you go visit someone in House K who rewards you in a similar manner as the invaders guy in the harbor. The rewards from this should be a random collection of stuff that would have normally been in the warded chest.

This adjusts the risk/reward ratio to favor having a larger party. Right now soloing/duoing some quests has a much higher reward factor for specific classes than is needed in this game. It transitions the focus from: Why bother bringing 10 other people when we can loot the warded chest and only have to worry about **** loot? It now becomes: Lets get a big party together so we can get this raid knocked out.

[Cowdenicus]

The only raid loot that is worth "farming" a raid for are:

Sword of Shadows
Delving Suit
----------
Battle Coin
Centurion Armor
Chattering Ring
Insulated Armor
Jungle Cloak
Seven Fingered Gloves
Titanic Docent
----------
Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble Casters
Lion-Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
----------
Head of Good Fortune
Madstone Boots
Madstone Shield
Ventilated Bracers

and even some of those items... are horrible.

why are those good raid items? cuz they have abilties on them that you can NOT get from any other items/abilities/spells in the game. they are unique in their own little way. and before you say "oh, that's a pretty big laundry list of good items" think to yourself.. can any character use all or even most of those items??

Until raids drop Resistance +5 and Protection +5 items, and items with 2 +6 stat bumps on it... there really is no need to "grind" raid loot.

I would argue Gauntlets of Eternity should be on this list for clerics.

[Rokurgepta]

So you suggest everyone gets what they want the 1st run through? And to think many people think we have too much loot as it is. LOL.

No i never said that nor think that, please stop assuming you understand me since you dont.

[Gimpster]

This adjusts the risk/reward ratio to favor having a larger party. Right now soloing/duoing some quests has a much higher reward factor for specific classes than is needed in this game. It transitions the focus from: Why bother bringing 10 other people when we can loot the warded chest and only have to worry about **** loot? It now becomes: Lets get a big party together so we can get this raid knocked out.

Yes, that's what it does. And that is bad.

The concept of "lets invite 10 more people so the chest will output six times more loot" is not a good way to encourage bigger groups.

It'll still mean 2 people basically do the raid, and the other 10 try not to get in the way and screw it up. That could approximately happen in many raids, but it is already exactly what happens in VON6 some times: one fighter pulls the monsters, one cleric heals him, and the other 10 players are warned not to move at all or they might pull aggro and mess it up.

That's not fun.

[QuantumFX]

Yes, that's what it does. And that is bad.

The concept of "lets invite 10 more people so the chest will output six times more loot" is not a good way to encourage bigger groups.

It'll still mean 2 people basically do the raid, and the other 10 try not to get in the way and screw it up. That could approximately happen in many raids, but it is already exactly what happens in VON6 some times: one fighter pulls the monsters, one cleric heals him, and the other 10 players are warned not to move at all or they might pull aggro and mess it up.

That's not fun.

Gimpster let me ask you this: Is your issue with the current difficulty of the raids or the Risk/reward ratio?

If it's the difficulty then I'm with you 100%. But that's a completely different subject.

The main issue that I believe the OP is touching upon is the fact that the risk/reward ratio of at least VoN6/DQ/TF quest series is ********. Doing a quest for months and not getting anything to show for it is even less fun than watching someone run the bases. Quests shouldn't have to depend on external guild merit systems to keep the loot fair. It discourages playing with others on your server and subtracts from one of this game's strengths - community.

The idea I presented has nothing to do with how much gets pulled from the small chests. No one does raids for the small chests. The ultimate goal is to make raiding worth the trouble. It can take a well specced ranger 7-10 minutes to solo/duo the DQ for a 90% chance at getting an item. If you had a group of 12 it would take 2 minutes but only give you about a 10% chance. If you're not an outsider and if you haven't pulled anything else recently and if it's loot anyone is actually looking for. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.

As for the running of the bases in VoN6 that tactic only allows 1 single player to be a superstar *cough*punchingbag*cough* for the first part of the quest. Last I heard it's still better to have 12 people lynching Velah rather than 3.

[Vinos]

No i never said that nor think that, please stop assuming you understand me since you dont.

Well then provide a solution. You don't like the current raid loot system and you don't like a token system. If you're going to complain provide an idea to fix it.

[Gimpster]

Gimpster let me ask you this: Is your issue with the current difficulty of the raids or the Risk/reward ratio?

False dichotomy. My "issue" is with suggestions that would make the game worse.

[QuantumFX]

False dichotomy. My "issue" is with suggestions that would make the game worse.

Why do you assume that I think there are only 2 options here? I was asking for some clarification of what you think the issue is.

You keep assuming that "it increases the loot output" when in practice it doesn't. Currently, in 12 successful dragon runs 24 pieces or raid loot drops. Whether 12 participants in each run or any other combination you will always have 24 pieces of raid loot drop. In the proposed system only 12 pieces of raid loot would drop but each participant would have their own pull from the collection and have a selection.

[Rog]

90% of the raid i run i dont roll on loot why i cant use it or dont need it but thats not the point here how can we make the raid system better. 1.the first thing we can do without to much trouble would be have the loot that drops keyed to the class that are in the raid. no wf no docents drop I have been in many raids without wf and what drops 2 docents 2 hours wasted.really how hard would it be to key the loot to fit the party you still have to grind but big chest would hold something the party could use.2. the loot reward is outdated why run a raid when u can get same loot from a normal quest run update the loot system introduce new items into the mix to bring up raid run interest so more poeple would want to do all the prequest to get raid ready. 3. the spine is a great starter raid but we need more general raids when the spine was a top top raid it brought many toons togther and tought us how to work in raid groups also let us meet other poeple on the server that might not leave there click to run a pug group opens a lot of channels on servers between players a happy pug group is one that you dont need to do anything specail to get into.
just 3 ideas
lunarsong
from the mysterious realms of khyber

[Ikken]

I really think the existing system is about perfect for the raid size. In other MMO's, it is not uncommon to have 50+ people in a raid, and still only have 2-3 items drop.

The problem people have is the (as I see it) correctly created loot tables. The computer generates them just as randomly as the d100 roll does in PnP. So yeah, the odds are NOT in your favor if you're looking for one specific item on the loot table. But that's D&D - the dragon just doesn't always happen to have that really great item you've always wanted.

But no matter what, you still have at least a 1/12 chance at winning some raid loot.

I like those odds.

-Ike

[AEschyl]

I would argue Gauntlets of Eternity should be on this list for clerics.

i looked at those when i made that list, they are nothing more than a space saver (other than the undead guard.. which is lame anyways)

[Cowdenicus]

i looked at those when i made that list, they are nothing more than a space saver (other than the undead guard.. which is lame anyways)

I dunno, I really like that on my cleric I am now able to equip one more item and have a repair +13 (that I never would have considered wasting a slot for).

Also I dunno about you, but I would not really consider Superior healing lore a waste for any cleric.

P.S. It is Eternal Faith, not undead Guard.

[DaveyCrockett]

The only raid loot that is worth "farming" a raid for are:

Sword of Shadows
Delving Suit
----------
Battle Coin
Centurion Armor
Chattering Ring
Insulated Armor
Jungle Cloak
Seven Fingered Gloves
Titanic Docent
----------
Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Bramble Casters
Lion-Headed Belt Buckle
Pouch of Jerky
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
----------
Head of Good Fortune
Madstone Boots
Madstone Shield
Ventilated Bracers

and even some of those items... are horrible.

why are those good raid items? cuz they have abilties on them that you can NOT get from any other items/abilities/spells in the game. they are unique in their own little way. and before you say "oh, that's a pretty big laundry list of good items" think to yourself.. can any character use all or even most of those items??

Until raids drop Resistance +5 and Protection +5 items, and items with 2 +6 stat bumps on it... there really is no need to "grind" raid loot.

Seal of the Earth not on that list? Boy, you just lost some credibility with me.

[Auran82]

The goggles from the Queen seem pretty good too, Blindness Immunity + Permanant True Seeing? Sign me up.

[Vorn]

One possible solution would be to at the next favor level, whatever that is, to allow the selection of one piece of raid gear from a raid of the character's choosing or a +3 tome.
Cheers,
V

[Jack_No.7]

your telling me the von6 kundarak delving boots are useless because there not on ur list? ummm freedom of movement permanent anyone?

[llevenbaxx]

Have to agree. I really dislike the raids because of the loot system.

The raids are fun and challenging the first several times you run them but the loot system means you have to run them over and over and over... just playing the odds and hoping for some cool piece of raid loot to finally drop for the guy you're running at the moment so you can roll on it and watch it go to the lucky guy who came along on the raid for his first time but happens to roll one point better than you on the die.

Add to this the fact that if you just wait a couple of mods, those cool items you finally got from all that raid-pounding a little while ago are now dropping in non-raid chests as un-bound items or as rewards for token-collecting.

Agree, I might actually start doing the raids again but for that junk mechanic. I just dont understand what these MMO players get out of having to run these UBER raids again and again and again to actually get a useful item. Seems... well dumb to me.

I get sick of running the same stuff with the same character again and agin and again. Most unattractive thing about this game for me.

I really like your last idea, but the uber equiped grinders would be all up in arms Im sure. "I had to run that raid 52 times to get that item!". LOL No thanks. Though it would be a very casual player friendly thing, I dont think that is a Turbine's really targetting that crowd anymore.

[Cowdenicus]

Agree, I might actually start doing the raids again but for that junk mechanic. I just dont understand what these MMO players get out of having to run these UBER raids again and again and again to actually get a useful item. Seems... well dumb to me.

I get sick of running the same stuff with the same character again and agin and again. Most unattractive thing about this game for me.

I really like your last idea, but the uber equiped grinders would be all up in arms Im sure. "I had to run that raid 52 times to get that item!". LOL No thanks. Though it would be a very casual player friendly thing, I dont think that is a Turbine's really targetting that crowd anymore.

Based on population numbers, it would seem Turbine isn't really targetting anybody, with great success.