Raid Quest Survey from a Raid Guild.

[HorridForm]

I remember when module 1 went live. It took the majority precent of the player base the whole rest of the month to complete von 1-4 let alone brave 5. I dont recall when Velah was killed game wide, but I do know that the countless hours spent altering the Dragon Raid was time taken away from module 2.

In 16 months of development we got 5 raids. When I began playing DDO I looked to the future of the game and thought by this point we would be looking at 8 raids and possibly disucssions on what the epic levels might look like. Its sad to know how much time has been waisted on nerfing the content.

We should just move along to bigger and better things. I would like to see 24man raids that require so much team synergy that soloing is impossible. At this point the raids are so easy that they can all be 3 manned by experienced players.

Now if we had 8 raids available and the timers were set to 1 week then we could still raid a different dungeon each day. This would slow down our ability to master the raids so quickly.

On top of that all of the raids should've required a minimum of 6 players to complete and if you fail the raid then you should still be set on the timer. This would prevent players from attempting short man raids that they are more likely to fail. The distribution of raid items would be slower and more rewarding for those in possession of the items.

Examples of faults on the Reaver Raid. The reaver's ability to alter gravity was devestating. Combined with the Air Elementals disrupting your party it can be a lethal combination, but lets face it! The Air Elementals are easily crowd control and killed. Now if the reaver used other abilities to disrupt the players then they couldn't manage the 45+ elementals with a single sorc. A fine example would be a mass solid fog effect that blinds players. Now this ability can be prevented with Freedom obviously, but that would be 1 more aspect that the players would have to include in thier strategy. The reavers thunderclap could also deafen casters inflicting a 20% spell failure. Now the players are forced to communicate more or they will lose vital crowd control. Tornado like winds could push the players out of a position where all of the CC is set up! To further emphasize the Reavers ability to control weather he could induce heat waves that fatigue and exhaust players slowing movement down.


The spiked ceiling that we navigate through while flying should be randomized to avoid players from becoming to familiar with the exact path to take. The levers should be gaurded by a mob and or a trap!

The puzzle room defenses are way to easy to overcome. A single mob type that cannot be CCed or DMed would add enough disruption to prevent single casters from dominating the enviroment.

Dont get me wrong I love this game! The raid concepts are genius, but flawed. I just wish that more thought went into making the raids difficult enough to require larger groups, but not overbearing for less experienced players. Hope the next raid hit home on this.

[Ekental]

So... sidestepping the ****ing contests here..

I like the idea of Universal Flagging:
That is to say, doing one raid, or quest, enables you to from then on, skip the prep for another... perhaps lower lvl raid.
I.e. Completing the reaver lets you bypass the raid reqs for VoN, with the caveat that you must have already have completed VoN normally at least once.

As for ease of raids, as it is now, even the casual players find it somewhat boring to run a raid such as.. VoN, since the gear that everyone has now at lvl 14 as a "casual" player exceeds or at least matches the best lvl 10's when VoN was released. Lets not also forget to factor in the higher stats/spells/etc. that you get for being 14.

Randomness:
Maybe the newer raids need a more.. interactive element? It's been mentioned the mastermind puzzle is possibly the most entertaining aspect in the reaver raid now, or perhaps getting fly from the reaver.

Either way, why not bump that to the next step and throw in something such as.. .a ball... that will roll around the map, and force the players to catch it as part of the raid? You can throw in whatever gauntlet of distractions etc. to make the process more exciting.
So, before people start listing out what they dislike (balls being one of them), this is just an example of an element to add to future raids that may make them more sustainable.

Side Note: Velah
Yeah.. it took the player base a little more than a week? to beat Velah, compared to the 1.5 days for the Reaver. While I understand where this view is coming from, I don't think it's valid in these two cases. Velah was first beaten with some dubious tactics, such as MM behind a conveniently safe rock... while the Stormreaver, despite being beaten faster, was actually completed.. "correctly"

[Tavok]

Merlask didn't name TA anything.

Merlask decided (i don't know why) that Aundair was the most raid-focused of all servers.

Riott is pointing out that TA's primary focus is raiding.

Then it was self-proclaiming. He didn't say that your primary focus was raiding, which I don't doubt that fact. He said, of all the guilds on Aundair, we are the ones that raid the most, which must mean we are the most prolific raiding guild out there because Aundair is the most prolific raiding server. Blatantly untrue.

And Merlask, I don't mean to dis your survey, a lot of good ideas and observations where made from it. But you said yourself, that you can't find this stuff all over DDO? Why then claim server's as "such and such" if any server has a given amount of anything?

[Vox]

Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry!

Seriously... we got it. Other guilds raid a lot. cool. moving on.

Merlask's census was intended to give people an idea of where they might find an environment more suited to their tastes. If you're unhappy that your raidiness wasn't fairly represented in said census, next time there's a census, speak up on the subject. In the meantime... move on, or make a post proclaiming your raidiness to the DDO metaverse... preferably in the general discussion forum.. and not in a thread intended to try and improve raids in general.

Sheesh...

Vox

[Riggs]

Signed on the reflagging.

Raid loot mechanic is brutal for anyone who doesnt raid 20 times a week.(which is quite a lot of people).

That a 12 person raid drops 2 items - 75% of which are utter **** - makes almost anyone who does the raid annoyed and ticked off that they went through the whole long process and got nothing but some level 4 crud from chests - even the end chest sitting beside the glyph chest in a level 10 raids drops level 4 items.

Right now, you just have to read the hundreds of posts about people trying to do raids with as few people as possible to realize; that in a game that is supposed to be cooperative, and social - raids only cause groups to exclude as many people as possible - so that you have a better chance of getting items. This is not good for the game.

Raid loot needs to be seriously re-examined. At least half of the items in each raid are completely and utterly useless. Putting useless items as part of the mix means that it is possible to do something dozens of times and never see the one item you actually want. Some guilds, and some servers, have the population to raid and give items to people who are 'in line for the next item'. But being on a lower pop server, many 'guild raids' turn into pug raids, because even getting 6 people can be a chore sometimes. So if you allow pugs to roll then it is possible to run something many times and never get the item you want.

This is very far from fun, very, very far. The fact that you have to run pre-quests every time makes it like a trip to the dentist.

The other thing that would be a nice change was NOT having more puzzles, but instead having more combat. Make the fights hard. But sitting around for 20 min messing with a laser to shoot the Titan, just to melee him after for like 10 seconds is really...boring, unfun, a letdown...pick a phrase - but its certainly not enjoyable.

Also, giving raid monsters MORE overrun/trip with dcs so high that you automatically fail is also really unfun. Doing a raid for the first time where you spend 90% of the time on your back, in between dying, makes a lot of people say "Hey this was really annoying, I think I wont come back because most of the end rewards stink anyway, and chances are I wont roll to beat the other people...so why bother"

People who raid a lot have got things down smooth. But I have seen some horrific pugs raids, and being in one can make you really want to quit the game for a while. If the main end content is that annoying....

Trip/overrun are way overused, and way too powerful. The most recent two raids both use this extensively.

Raids where you fight things would be a lot more fun than lying on your back, or standing around for an hour waiting for someone in another room to do a puzzle.

So yeah, make all raid prequests one time for flagging, then you can run the one pre-quest and the raid instead of 3-4 more prequests each and every time.

[Rog]

4 man the dragon on elite then i might be impressed run 20 raids a week on normal man really despert for some outdate loot there are a few but most raids i run are pugs and when we run guild raids we figue that we have solid players so we run it on elite and hope for the best which goes u have been hit for a 160 points of fire dam by breath weopon and so on nope quess we aint that uber yet cant 4 man dragon on elite. as for titan probable could and the demon queen which is your best chance at loot becouse u can 2 man her not that we are uber uber server like some but i know she can be solo becouse i know peeps that solo her.
lunarsong
from the mysterous realms of khyber

[sieg33]

Raiding would be much better in this game if they were like everquest. The endless flagging from that game is not necessary but some actual raid progression and raid flags would be very good.

[Riot]

A coupel of things...

If you are stuck on me saying we are the most prolific raiding guild...

GET OVER IT.... if you raid more than us.. grats, YOU are the most prolific raiding guild. I have no desire for the ****ing match.
I care more about the game than your ego being bruised.

To answer questions asked.
There's 50+ unique individuals in TA.
20 raids a week is a LOW average. We sometimes have over 30, but I estimated for weeks with holidays. and btw every single raid we have is logged as well, so we keep very good records.(due to our PLS system)

Those records DO NOT INCLUDE TEMPEST SPINE... which would jack up the raid average a bit....

If you raid more than that.. Congrats, Please survey your own people and pitch in to the discussion... I care not for the ****ing match.

I only stressed our frequency to establish that we are prolific, and we do raid alot. It goes to the heart of credibility.

Now lets get back to providing customer feedback please, thanks.

[Tavok]

Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry!

Seriously... we got it. Other guilds raid a lot. cool. moving on.

Merlask's census was intended to give people an idea of where they might find an environment more suited to their tastes. If you're unhappy that your raidiness wasn't fairly represented in said census, next time there's a census, speak up on the subject. In the meantime... move on, or make a post proclaiming your raidiness to the DDO metaverse... preferably in the general discussion forum.. and not in a thread intended to try and improve raids in general.

Sheesh...

Vox

Thats fine, if you insist I will stop proving my point and saying whats on my mind on these forums, which I suppose is what they are intended for. But I would like to point out that I talked to Merlask herself when she visited Mabar, and I talked about how much raiding we do, which was a lot. So, yes, in fact, I did speak up. Its not an issue of my raidiness or whatever, its the fact that you guys really aren't the center of the raid universe which is what Riot's thread seemed to show to ME. (Notice: me, myself, not you.)

[Riot]

Its not an issue of my raidiness or whatever, its the fact that you guys really aren't the center of the raid universe which is what Riot's thread seemed to show to ME.

Fine.. we aren't.. YOU are... that make it better?
If you want the title.. take it.. it's all yours.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

The devs have said that they learnt from player feedback about having to do pre-quests over and over (DQ and VONs in particular) and they made Stormreaver different. I think they went too far - someone's idea of a pre-raid would have been nice. Titan is the right balance of pre-raid/raid IMHO.

I also like someone's idea of alternate routes to raid readiness - you could have 12 quests and you need to do 3 to get ready each time?

Raid progression would be nice too - but never played a game with it but it sounds like a good idea.

Raids too easy? Try naked raids to make them more interesting! Naked POP is fun too

Garth

p.s. Simple idea to make raids 12 man - put 12 switches in that all have to be pulled at the same time?

[etelan]

Thanks for the post Riot. I agreed 100% on the summarized statements except for difficulty changes.

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
I don't want to see more difficulty. Some of the raids took us several failed attempts before completion and we don't want to block off pugs and more casual playstyles from completing raids. I say the difficult is great, but we should have insentive to play on hard and elite. Hard and elite should be significantly tougher, but also give better rewards (perhaps 3 loot items for hard and 4 for elite).

We are fine with reset timers and the Glyph system of loot.
Agreed. Like I said above I would like to see more gylphs for harder difficulties. If the system is changed over to an item collection that is a good idea as well. Players will no longer get absolutely nothing towards their loot on a successful run. However, collection items should be handed out on every run and like ore collection should not be based on the number of group members to encourage players who can win while understaffed.

Hand of the Black Tower - Aundair

[Riorik]

To answer questions asked.
There's 50+ unique individuals in TA.
20 raids a week is a LOW average. We sometimes have over 30, but I estimated for weeks with holidays. and btw every single raid we have is logged as well, so we keep very good records.(due to our PLS system)

Those records DO NOT INCLUDE TEMPEST SPINE... which would jack up the raid average a bit....

That answers my question - these days we're actually a bit behind this average - I think it's all the time we're spending collecting (I mean looting) relics & scales. That and "loot weekends" tend to put serious crimps in our raiding schedule.

What I'd say is, our numbers seem to be comparable. I'd actually guess that a smaller guild might have an advantage. I'm not sure how much it really matters if one group does X and another does X+1. I'm not real certain I'm in it for the items so much as doing it with friends.

Our records only recorded the "real raids" - TS never hit the radar.

[Frodo_Lives]

We like more difficulty in the form of tougher fights, and puzzles under duress.
I don't want to see more difficulty. Some of the raids took us several failed attempts before completion and we don't want to block off pugs and more casual playstyles from completing raids. I say the difficult is great, but we should have insentive to play on hard and elite. Hard and elite should be significantly tougher, but also give better rewards (perhaps 3 loot items for hard and 4 for elite).

I don't see how this would solve anything, if you get more raid loot for hard or elite then I don't think anyone would run anything but elite, and it does nothing but reduce the 2 maning to 4 people raids. And if you are running a raid on elite with still less then 12 then you want to run with players you know and trust. I think that this would exagerate the problem with casual raiding vs. hardcore raiders instead of the other way around.

I think that getting better non raid loot on hard and elite would be a better way to go. On raids the end chests (not the warded ones) should have loot +2 for hard and loot +3 for elite. This gives at least a little incentive to run it at a harder level but still does not eliminate the benifits from running a raid on normal.

What really needs to happen is to find a way to make raids more friendly to 12 manning instead of less people, which right now means better shot at raid loot.

[Riggs]

What really needs to happen is to find a way to make raids more friendly to 12 manning instead of less people, which right now means better shot at raid loot.

Until every person who participates gets a raid item, the 2 glyph system means that most guilds will never bring in pugs, and most raids will be with as few people as possible.

Both mean that casual players can enjoy almost never getting a good raid in, or ever getting raid items.

The current system is designed to make players exclude others. Considering the steadily declining populations - really someone might want to change those designs so that people WANT to have others join, and not have it REDUCE the loot they get.

If you have been on 10 dragon raids lets say - and are still trying to get the sword, chances are that most people will be trying to 4 man it just so IF the thing finally drops you actually can get it for once.

Fun system? I would say no.

On other things, every raid should pretty much be like the Titan for setup, just not the buggy parts, puzzles, and the part where most of the party is spending 20 minutes sitting around waiting for someone to shoot a laser at it 6 times just to be allowed to go hit something.

[Krell]

2 ) Difficulty needs to be ramped up. We understand that familiarity lowers the difficulty rating. And leveling likewise does this in straight up fights. More HP, More AC, More attack, higher level gear make a difference.

I agree with most points except this one. Not everyone is fortunate enough to regularly be in groups that know the raid well, are equiped, and prepared for it. I've been in 12 or so Reaver raids. Most were pugs, a few were guild. I would say only two went well with some others that finally succeeded after multiple wipes.

If raids were made more difficult in order to be a challenge to some of the greatest raiding guilds in all of DDO, then the rest of us in average groups would be left behind in a mire of frustration and dissapointment.

[CSFurious]

anyone would get bored if they ran the quests that many times, if you did not get bored, i would classify you as either very boring or clinically insane

Bottom line is raids should not be based around or built for the players or guilds that raid 20 times or 100 times a week.

Most players do not raid that often, do not have access to a group that raids that often, and unless that is what they want to dedicate their DDO time towards that goal it won't happen.

If you are bored with raids cause they are too easy then run them with just your starter equipment then. Find ways to make them harder because if you have run the dragon 200 times then of course it's going to be easy and it won't matter if you are the best player in the world or a lousy one that has gotten good at the raid simply by repitition.

If the raids are made to "challange" those that run it over and over and over again then they will be made down right impossible for those that don't.

I don't mind that the good raid loot is still pretty hard to get, I just hate the human decision making that goes into deciding who gets what. Some guilds are great to run with, others will screw you out of raid loot (or even a shot at raid loot) with a second thought.

[CSFurious]

it is time for a 24-man raid as a previous poster suggested

[Vox]

I agree with most points except this one. Not everyone is fortunate enough to regularly be in groups that know the raid well, are equiped, and prepared for it. I've been in 12 or so Reaver raids. Most were pugs, a few were guild. I would say only two went well with some others that finally succeeded after multiple wipes.

If raids were made more difficult in order to be a challenge to some of the greatest raiding guilds in all of DDO, then the rest of us in average groups would be left behind in a mire of frustration and dissapointment.

I would heartily approve of some sort of content that was designed to challenge the highest end players. The problem currently is that there is insufficient content to allow this seperation of content by skill level. I don't even care about better loot at this point. I would like to see content that is actually /HARD/ for the high end players. I felt like the quests for the previous level caps were fairly difficult. I don't feel that way about gianthold. I definitely don't feel that way about Gianthold Tor, or the Reaver raid.

Vox

[Yaga_Nub]

Guys,

Sorry I haven't piped up since my first post, I've been busy with other stuff but let me apologize for starting the ****ing contest. The problem with the written word is you read into it the sound and intonation that you think the writer is using instead of just reading the words. So again I apologize to Riot for adding drama into his thread. Now on to the good stuff.

I was just thinking about a new flagging mechanism. I'm sure it's been proposed before and if it has then all credit goes to the person that mentioned it first but I haven't been able to find a post about it.

What if all the raids had this flaggin mechanism, to run the raid on normal/hard/elite, you had to run the flagging quests on normal/hard/elite and then you were done flagging for that level. So if I want to run SR raid on normal, I need to complete PoP, Madstone, the Crucible, and the pre-raid on normal, then I can run the SR raid on normal but nothing else. If I want to run the SR raid on hard, I need to complete all those quests on hard and so on. This allows for repetition of quests like Turbine wants but has a finite end to that repetition like the play base wants. I think you would still have to do VON5 and AtDQ each time you run those quests but I would gladly do that if I didn't have to do 4 and 3 flagging quest before hand.

Any thoughts on this?