Addressing Medium and Light Armor utility

[Elfvyra]

I would respond to a lot more of this post, but it's almost 5pm on a Friday here.

A 14th level fighter with +5 full plate and +6 STR bracers will have 13 AC from his armor, a maximum of 1 from his DEX without enhancements, and will need to spend a body slot for the armor, a second item slot for a deathblock item, and a third slot for the bracers. So ignoring all other items and assuming a human with a DEX bonus of 1, that fighter has 24 AC and 3 item slots used. A set of +5 deathblock armor is ML 16, and can only spawn as a race-restricted item on 14th level quests on elite during a +1 loot weekend (and to my knowledge, nobody has ever actually pulled one).

A 14th level rogue (as per your example) receives +11 AC from DEX and 6 from the bracers....the deathblock uses up the body slot. If we ignore all other items and assume human, the rogue has 27 AC and uses 3 item slots...one for the robe, one for the bracers, and one for the DEX item (because 32 DEX cannot currently be reached without one).

So let's review...the rogue in this scenario gets 3 more AC, plus rogue skills, plus stealth, plus backstabbing, plus evasion, plus extra skill points. Now granted, he won't do the same damage as the fighter with +6 STR, but with a DEX that high, he can take finesse and hit just as often (for even more damage if he can hit the mob without drawing aggro)...and in an era where paralyzers are common, DPS isn't necessarily the most important aspect of melee.

I'm sorry but I disagree. You just gave me an example where (all other things being equal) a rogue in a robe is better suited for melee than a fighter in full plate.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

You stopped waaay too soon for the fighter. Give your Fighter 3 more AC, because he's got Armor Mastery III. And some DR, because the Plate is Adamantine. Then the Fighter slips on his +5 Mithral Tower Shield. Now compare ACs. You can have the Rogue equip a shield as well, if he's proficient in their use. Is your rogue still 'better suited for melee'? Ask a Cleric and see which they would rather see in the front line....

[Shamguard]

You also left out Hit points. A level 14 rogue will have as a minimum 56 less hit points. (without including Extra Fighter Feats and Enhanments) Granted he can sneak attack but that still takes some special player skills to keep up, not everyone can manage agro. (ya just ask any cleric who PuGs alot)

Like I said, when you do game balancing you have to look at everything each class gets, you taken on benefit that Rogues get and called it unbalanced without concidering what they have to give up to get it. You Listed some of the other Rogue benefits but you failed to mention that Fighters get better base attack, an extra feat every other level, and more hit points all of which can make up for having to wear heavy armor instead of robes.

All I guess I really trying to say is look at the big picture before you suggest nerfing something. I think you'll find it's not as unbalanced as you might think.

[Dark_Vengeance]

Except that he said assume all other items to be equal. Plus, you're also assuming that all fighters have FAM3. Quite a few do not.

As for HP, that only makes an impact AFTER AC has been penetrated. Besides, a toughness feat or 2, a +CON item, and an item of Greater False Life are all great ways to improve HP. Not to mention Virtue, Bear's Endurance, and False Life buffs.

And don't give me any nonsense about different skilled players making the difference...for any kind of fair comparison, it has to be assumed we're dealing with an equally experienced player that knows how to play their class.

We compared as close as we could in an apples-to-apples comparison that Shamguard came up with. But he made some bad assumptions, and it backfired on him a bit....so obviously now we want to change the comparison.

So let me make it nice and neat for you. A tank in full plate is designed to be a front-line melee fighter. A rogue (especially without armor) is not designed to be a front line combatant. Yet there are a lot of scenarios in which high DEX characters in robes can meet or even exceed the AC of a fighter in heavy armor.

Seeing as how AC makes a big determination in how often damage is taken, my expectation is that most clerics would appreciate someone with a high AC. After all, 25 HP of damage is 25 HP of damage, regardless of who it affects.

In fact, looking at 36 DEX, you could add a +6 bracer to that (even though rr +7s exist). Plus if it's a halfling you can get 1 for size, 1 for dodge, and a toggle for 5 more if you grabbed combat expertise. A shield mastery with a +5 HMS of stability would get an additional 9 for a true neutral rogue. So that's already 45...protection +5, and now you're talking 50 unbuffed. And if you want, you can go for the Seal of Earth, or Chattering Ring to take it up even further. Not to mention that if someone buffs you, your AC climbs even higher.

That's dwarven fighter territory. A finesse rogue with that kind of AC isn't going to have problems making contact in melee, and should be just dandy in ranged combat as well. And that's IN ADDITION to all of the other things a rogue can do.

The fact that it's even debatable is a joke.

The classes with light armor proficiencies are all very dependent on DEX. Barbarians and their medium armor proficiencies can still equip Mithril versions of Heavy Armors up to and including full plate.

Light and Medium armors are virtually useless in DDO. To the point that you could delete several types, and not really get complaints...because removing them would get them out of the loot tables.

Frankly, I'd like to have a reason for a character to equip some type of armor other than Robes or Full Plate. Because otherwise it all leads to the same place...a few cookie cutter builds and stagnation.

I don't want to see robes nerfed. I want to see something that makes light and medium armors a viable option again. But the longer it goes on, the more momentum it gets, the more likely that Turbine will come in and nerf the unlimited Max Dex bonus on Robes as a balance issue.

Bring the noise.
Cheers...........

[KristovK]

Ok...judging by what you are posting Dark, I'm guessing you don't play PnP and never have and so have 0 experience in how it works.

Str based builds give up higher ACs for sheer damage, NOT for a better AB, but for sheer damage.

Dex based builds give up sheer damage for higher ACs.

Averaged out, they both work well enough..unless you run into something like..oh...a dragon. Sure, the Dex build can hit the dragon well enough, but they just can't do much, if any, damage to that dragon. 1d6 weapons have a hard time getting through the DR of a dragon..or any high CR mob in PnP for that matter. They hope for crits and start swinging. The Str build on the other hand is wailing away just as well and actually taking big chunks out of that dragon's hide..and internal organs...and killing it.

Now, keep in mind that in PnP you really don't see the kind of gear we see in DDO, no one runs around with 10 different weapons, much less the 20-30 we see COMMONLY in DDO. Can't carry them, don't get them, just ain't an issue, so being able to kick out 30-60 points of damage a hit is more then just a little perk for giving up the higher AC that the Dex build gets while kicking out 10-20 points of damage a hit, if that much.

Dex builds give up a lot for the higher ACs they can attain, Str builds gain a lot for the lower ACs they get, it balances out in the big picture of game balance. You are trying to create an inbalance where one doesn't exist, no idea why, but that's what you are doing. What next...greataxes do too much damage in the hands of a raging barbarian, so don't let them use anything except handaxes?

[Gimpster]

Ok...judging by what you are posting Dark, I'm guessing you don't play PnP and never have and so have 0 experience in how it works.
Str based builds give up higher ACs for sheer damage, NOT for a better AB, but for sheer damage.
Dex based builds give up sheer damage for higher ACs.

Evidently you don't have PnP experience either.

A higher AC is not an advantage typically enjoyed by a high-dex warrior.

[Dark_Vengeance]

Ok...judging by what you are posting Dark, I'm guessing you don't play PnP and never have and so have 0 experience in how it works.

I've played a bit of PnP, just never in the Eberron setting. Apparently neither have you though. We have characters with as much as 36-38 dexterity at level 14. In their own campiagn setting of Eberron they would be literally be capable of fighting gods.

Str based builds give up higher ACs for sheer damage, NOT for a better AB, but for sheer damage.

Dex based builds give up sheer damage for higher ACs.

Actually, dating back to the 70s, fighter classes started out very strong but didnt gain all that much in ability, while the weaker non-melee classes were much more vulnerable but became powerful over time, in their given role. Thieves did this through stealth and ingenuity, not by having a high Armor Class. In fact, the typical archetype for a fighter is one who has lots of skill and ability in melee, but is weak against magical attacks (which persists to this day).

Classes like the thief/rogue were given light armors so that they could perform duties like sneaking without metal clanking around to alert people to their presence.

Averaged out, they both work well enough..unless you run into something like..oh...a dragon. Sure, the Dex build can hit the dragon well enough, but they just can't do much, if any, damage to that dragon. 1d6 weapons have a hard time getting through the DR of a dragon..or any high CR mob in PnP for that matter. They hope for crits and start swinging. The Str build on the other hand is wailing away just as well and actually taking big chunks out of that dragon's hide..and internal organs...and killing it.

Against dragons in PnP, everyone is in a tough spot. exteremely powerful and extremely intelligent creatures with a variety of attacks and spellcasting capability? Yeah, nobody is really suited to fighting dragons.

Now, keep in mind that in PnP you really don't see the kind of gear we see in DDO, no one runs around with 10 different weapons, much less the 20-30 we see COMMONLY in DDO. Can't carry them, don't get them, just ain't an issue, so being able to kick out 30-60 points of damage a hit is more then just a little perk for giving up the higher AC that the Dex build gets while kicking out 10-20 points of damage a hit, if that much.

Understatement of the year. DDO characters can increase their primary attribute by as much as 18 points by level 14. A character with a stat of over 30 is considered laughable in all but the most Monty Haul versions of PnP play.

Dex builds give up a lot for the higher ACs they can attain, Str builds gain a lot for the lower ACs they get, it balances out in the big picture of game balance. You are trying to create an inbalance where one doesn't exist, no idea why, but that's what you are doing. What next...greataxes do too much damage in the hands of a raging barbarian, so don't let them use anything except handaxes?

No, the problem is that high dex builds have got spoiled on the fact that they can use enchanted robes and armored bracers to achieve higher ACs than are capable with the actual armors they are designed to use. Robes, which are primarily intended for arcane casters (which do not have ANY armor proficiency) offer greater benefits at lower levels because they are supposed to make up for the PENALTY of having no armor. Well, the armored bracers fly directly in the face of that concept....+7 armored bracers give the equivalent protection of half-plate, but with no max dex bonus. Heaven forbid that it change, and that you might be better off in +5 padded armor!!!

Now I may be totally off-base, but I don't recall seeing many wizards in PnP that ran with 30+ DEX. And it is only really above that point that this becomes an issue.

Barbarians OTOH are designed as medium AC high DPS melee types. I'd object just the same if fighters were typically doing more damage than barbs, or if barbs had a significantly higher AC than fighters. In terms of damage output, barbs are designed to be better adept with 2-handers...directly in line with their role as a more offensively-minded front line combatant.

People in this thread have consistently approached my suggestion like I am calling for a nerf of robes. I am not. I am opposed to nerfing robes, or implementing a max dex bonus on them.

Let me say that again. I am opposed to nerfing robes, or implementing a max dex bonus on them.

I will say it again so you understand me with crystalline clarity. I am opposed to nerfing robes, or implementing a max dex bonus on them.

And one more time. I am opposed to nerfing robes, or implementing a max dex bonus on them.

I do however, note that very few, if any, mid- or high-level players in DDO are using armors such as: padded, leather, studded leather, hide, chainmail, scalemail, banded mail, or half-plate. Chain shirts and breastplates are used to a lesser degree, and primarily only in mithril form. This means the rest of the players are using Full Plate or Robes.

Now you tell me....if balance exists among armors, why is it that out of a dozen different armor types, the vast majority of players are using only 2 of them?

Bring the noise.
Cheers...........

[Shamguard]

I do however, note that very few, if any, mid- or high-level players in DDO are using armors such as: padded, leather, studded leather, hide, chainmail, scalemail, banded mail, or half-plate. Chain shirts and breastplates are used to a lesser degree, and primarily only in mithril form. This means the rest of the players are using Full Plate or Robes.

Now you tell me....if balance exists among armors, why is it that out of a dozen different armor types, the vast majority of players are using only 2 of them?

Bring the noise.
Cheers...........

Never claimed that there is or was any balance between armors. There doesn't need to be because armor is a tool to be used or rejected by a character to meet his needs. It seems your problem is with robes being worn by everyone and not just casters. The only reason for this is that robes are, at this time, the only alternitive to armor. A charcter will equip what helps him perform his class(es) functions.

If a charcter out grows his need for armor what is the problem with him not using it?
Monks (when/if they get introduced to DDO) take penalties for wearing any armor. Their entire AC is Dexterity bonus, class abilities, and non-armor equipment.

I still think your making an issue out of something that is not a problem. So what if nobody wears some of the armor types? If they are not useful then they don't get used.

[Gimpster]

I do however, note that very few, if any, mid- or high-level players in DDO are using armors such as: padded, leather, studded leather, hide, chainmail, scalemail, banded mail, or half-plate. Chain shirts and breastplates are used to a lesser degree, and primarily only in mithril form. This means the rest of the players are using Full Plate or Robes.

In PnP players past level 3 or so do NOT use padded, leather, hide, chainmail, scalemail, banded mail, or half-plate. Exceptions: Druids use hide, and rogues getting close to level 20 may reach the dex to willingly wear padded or leather.

But for general PnP PCs, you wear either fullplate, breastplate, chainshirt, or robes. And you get it in mithral if at all possible. The other kinds of armor are for lowbies and mooks who can't afford anything better.

[Shamguard]

Sorry saw this after I made my last post. Guess that's what I get for reading bottom up.

We compared as close as we could in an apples-to-apples comparison that Shamguard came up with. But he made some bad assumptions, and it backfired on him a bit....so obviously now we want to change the comparison.

So let me make it nice and neat for you. A tank in full plate is designed to be a front-line melee fighter. A rogue (especially without armor) is not designed to be a front line combatant. Yet there are a lot of scenarios in which high DEX characters in robes can meet or even exceed the AC of a fighter in heavy armor.

Seeing as how AC makes a big determination in how often damage is taken, my expectation is that most clerics would appreciate someone with a high AC. After all, 25 HP of damage is 25 HP of damage, regardless of who it affects.

In fact, looking at 36 DEX, you could add a +6 bracer to that (even though rr +7s exist). Plus if it's a halfling you can get 1 for size, 1 for dodge, and a toggle for 5 more if you grabbed combat expertise. A shield mastery with a +5 HMS of stability would get an additional 9 for a true neutral rogue. So that's already 45...protection +5, and now you're talking 50 unbuffed. And if you want, you can go for the Seal of Earth, or Chattering Ring to take it up even further. Not to mention that if someone buffs you, your AC climbs even higher.

Your right a rogue is not a front line fighter. This character may be hard to hit, but because of lack of hit points (game balance) when he does get hit he's "meat for the grinder" vs the fighter with a similar even less (-2 to -8 AC) who can take many more hits. The fighter will have a Minimum of 48 more hit points plus toughness Feat(s) enhancements,ect. A fighter can have anywhere from 48 to 200(or more) hit points than the rogue. There is also a point when if it takes a 20 to hit a character more AC just doesn't matter. This is also part of game balance. If the mob you are fighting has an attack of +28 any AC over 48 just doesn't matter. I know we can and will fight mobs with higher and higher BAB and higher AC's will matter.

Like I said in my last post, armor is just another piece of equipment with it's own body slot. You seem to want to treat it as something special that it isn't.

[Shamguard]

In PnP players past level 3 or so do NOT use padded, leather, hide, chainmail, scalemail, banded mail, or half-plate. Exceptions: Druids use hide, and rogues getting close to level 20 may reach the dex to willingly wear padded or leather.

But for general PnP PCs, you wear either fullplate, breastplate, chainshirt, or robes. And you get it in mithral if at all possible. The other kinds of armor are for lowbies and mooks who can't afford anything better.

Rich people don't wear pesant armor.
Sucessful adventurers ar rich people.

[KristovK]

Gimp, in PnP, high dex builds gain a definate AC advantage over high str builds, I don't know how you can claim otherwise. I've never had a str based fighter approach the AC of a dex based fighter, or rogue or ranger or monk for that matter, especially once you get over 20th level. I've never gotten a str build to the same high ACs that I can get with a high dex build, just not possible. Unlike DDO, there's no Bulwark of whatever to boost ACs, no Armor Mastery, none of that, never seen a str based fighter hit over 50 AC, much less over 70 AC, in PnP...that's the domain of dex builds.

Dark, what you state is perfectly true about DDO...but I didn't say DDO, I said PnP. I'm fully aware that no one in PnP should get the bonuses and items that we get in DDO, and I've argued time and again that removing them would be the best thing for the game. Eberron IS a high magic world..but it's no where NEAR the high magic of DDO, so don't blame the setting, blame the devs. The enhancement system, while based on what is used in Eberron, shares nothing with the actual PnP system anymore except the words 'Action Points', which work nothing like what we see in DDO. DDO is a Church of Munchkin approved game, which should say it all. Take the PnP rules, ommit certain words, like 'maximum for level' from the loot tables, and viola, you get DDO's loot! Gimpster himself has pointed out that the loot in DDO is perfectly within the guidelines of the PnP game...he just ommited the 'maximum for level' bit. Because the loot in DDO IS within the PnP rules...it's the maximum possible for the levels, but it IS in the charts for the levels. It IS possible to see players at 14th level with stat scores close to what we see in DDO, minus the enhancements that is, which drops them anywhere from 2 to 5 points. Base 20 for racial, plus 3 from leveling, plus 6 from items, so a 29 is doable in PnP..provided you are in a CoM approved Monty Haul campaign. Make it a +7 for a racial restricted item(we're talking CoM after all, no cutting corners!) and you can hit a 30 stat by 14th level. I've had Mystic Theurge himself point out to me that a 30 Int or Chr isn't uncommon in PnP by 14th level for a Wiz/Sorc, Gimpster backed him up on that, so I guess I must be ******** and not understand PnP because I don't play CoM approved Monty Haul campaigns, which seems, from what I'm seeing on these boards from the PnP purists, to be the norm. So..what can we expect in DDO if this is indeed the norm that WoTC is pushing for the PnP game today?

There is no way, short of removing the loot and enhancements and adding in the actual armor based restrictions from PnP of getting people to use anything but a few types of armor in DDO, there's no REASON to do so, with or without the overblown loot and enhancements, there's just no reason. Heavy armor is heavy armor, whether it's Banded or FP, same movement restriction, only difference is slightly better or worse ACs, lack of a dex bonus allowed, weight(15lbs difference between Scale/Banded and Halfplate/FP), and the cost....which is the real deciding factor in PnP...money. 1500 gp is a fortune for a starting character, not within the powers of one to purchase this..so they'll go with something cheaper like Banded. Outside of that, once a character has the money, they WILL buy the best possible armor they can get, and that will be FP for fighter/paladins, breastplate for Barbs unless they are high dex builds in which case they'll go with a chain shirt or lighter, Rangers will be in the lightest armor with the best dex bonus and so on. So..yeah..even in PnP, except at the starter levels, you won't see a lot of armor types being worn by players once they hit 5th or 6th level, FP on the ones who can wear it, and so on. Difference being, by 14th level, you won't be seeing fighters in +5 FP and everyone else in robes, you would instead see everyone who can wear armor in the best allowed their class/build(fp/breastplate/studded/leather) and only Wiz/Sorcs would be in robes or clothing.

It's not DDO that's the reason we don't see the variations in armor worn..it's actually part of the PnP system, if you can afford it, you wear the best possible for your class/build.

[Gimpster]

Gimp, in PnP, high dex builds gain a definate AC advantage over high str builds, I don't know how you can claim otherwise. I've never had a str based fighter approach the AC of a dex based fighter, or rogue or ranger or monk for that matter, especially once you get over 20th level.

You are completely wrong. The fact that you think levels above 20th are somehow representative of D&D gameplay gives a clue as to why you are wrong.

Gimpster himself has pointed out that the loot in DDO is perfectly within the guidelines of the PnP game...he just ommited the 'maximum for level' bit.

I've had Mystic Theurge himself point out to me that a 30 Int or Chr isn't uncommon in PnP by 14th level for a Wiz/Sorc, Gimpster backed him up on that, so I guess I must be ******** and not understand PnP because I don't play CoM approved Monty Haul campaigns,

Those claims about what I said are incorrect.

[Wightscion]

The problem of making armor useless at higher levels with high dex builds is also in Pen and Paper and about 100 times worse. If you build your character around it, you can get your AC way, way up there, and armor only inhibits it.

Don't believe me? Check this thread out:

crazy AC

'Not saying this isn't Monty Haul or is with the "spirit of DnD" or "true DnD", whatever that means. I am just saying it is out there in Pen and Paper, and people use it. Seems same in DDO, to me.

[MysticTheurge]

I've had Mystic Theurge himself point out to me that a 30 Int or Chr isn't uncommon in PnP by 14th level for a Wiz/Sorc

I believe I was pointing out that a stat that high isn't impossible especially in a "Monty Hall" type game. (And, that it is, in fact, easier to get high bonus stat items in D&D than it is in DDO, especially as a wizard.)