Addressing Medium and Light Armor utility

[Dark_Vengeance]

A conversation about the white dragonscale robes in General Discussion got me to thinking again about something that's been bugging me for a while now.

My halfling Rogue recently hit level 9, and now has exceeded the Max Dex bonus on his +5 Mithral Chain Shirt. He has a +5 Studded Leather and +5 Leather in the bank, but loses AC if he equips either of those as alternatives to the MCS. Once your DEX hits 24 (for us lowly non-dwarves), leather and studded leathers become obsolete in favor of mithral armors.

As he continues to level and acquire treasure, he will get access to better +DEX items, better +Armor items, DEX enhancements, DEX tomes, and additional stat points. By my math, a race with a natural +2 to DEX can start with as much as 20, and increase to about 36-38 by level 14. That's a modifier of +13 or +14, but since 38 would require finding a race restricted +7 DEX item and a +3 DEX tome, let's call it 36. That's still +13 to AC...the equivalent of a 10 DEX human equipping +5 fullplate.

Now by 14, he can also equip +7 race-restricted armored bracers, and can use a +5 mithral heavy shield of stability, and a protection +5 item. With all of the other items I can tack on, he can easily reach into the 40s on his AC.

Unless he wears armor. Someone mind explaining that one to me?

Now I realize this is a PnP staple, been around for quite some time. You don't get your full dex bonus in plate, because it's bulky. Fine. Put a high-dex dwarven fighter with the right enhancements into some MFP, and he can reduce that to the equivalent of padded armor. Silly for a race of stout miners with stubby legs, but whatever.

Since non-metal armors don't get any kind of equivalent to mithral, and can't deliver the AC of metal armors, they are worthless. Other than roleplaying reasons (and we don't even have druids yet), why would someone use hide armor over say mithral chainmail?

And moreover, why are armors like padded considered so restrictive? Why don't dex-based classes like rangers and rogues and bards have equivalent enhancements for more fluid movement in light armors (especially non-metal ones)?? For that matter, why don't classes like barbarians have similar enhancements for medium armors (especially hide)?

And how exactly is it that bulky flowing ankle-length wizard robes have no max dex bonus? Watch a robe-clad person sneak sometime and tell me that a real person wouldn't be stepping on those robes, or have other people stepping on them. Certainly there is no way that padded armor is so much more restrictive than robes to impose a penalty greater than that of the difference between leather and full plate (and I say greater because as the level cap increases the gap between max dex 8 and unlimited max dex will widen).

Now I'm not saying to nerf robes with a max dex bonus (although maybe I should), but can you at least toss a bone to us light and medium armor proficient classes that currently have to choose between gimping our AC or wearing dresses?

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[KristovK]

Get used to wearing dresses would be my suggestion, since we don't have plain clothing you can wear like in PnP that has no max dex bonus on it.

[Laith]

with monks, we'll hopefully get some "plain clothing"

padded armor though is just that: ARMOR. 10lbs of thick, juicy, protective, slightly-movement-restricting goodness.

[Dark_Vengeance]

with monks, we'll hopefully get some "plain clothing"

padded armor though is just that: ARMOR. 10lbs of thick, juicy, protective, slightly-movement-restricting goodness.

Compare full plate to leather. Is the difference between padded armor and plain clothing that great?

It shouldn't be. Padded armor is only 2 AC, and would be about the equivalent of wearing a heavy coat.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[Teufel_Hunden]

Wholeheartedly. I even started a post in the Development (here, i guess) about that. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=111736

even named it for them.

[Mercules]

Now I'm not saying to nerf robes with a max dex bonus (although maybe I should), but can you at least toss a bone to us light and medium armor proficient classes that currently have to choose between gimping our AC or wearing dresses?

I have a solution... Strip all the +stat items, +stat enhancments, and other Monty-Haul style equipment and enhancements from the game and suddenly that +4-+5 Studded Leather is looking pretty good.

This is the thing some of us have been talking about when mentioning gear and enhancements being over powered. D&D was designed around a certain range of numbers. DDO gave stacking boosts to those numbers that didn't take into account the less obvious limits on them. In PnP you don't often see a Dex over 24, at least not 24/7 at 14th level. You might see someone buff up to a Dex of 28-30, but normally it stays below 26 Dex, +8 Dex bonus to armor and that means Padded is still usable.

Turbine didn't take that into account when they decided people want to see BIG numbers.

[Gimpster]

Now I realize this is a PnP staple, been around for quite some time. You don't get your full dex bonus in plate, because it's bulky. Fine.

The numbers are fundamentally off from PnP because of enhancements. The racial and class enhancements give you a total of +5 dex above what a PnP character could get. Additionally, the lower need for intelligence to get skillpoints lets you pour even more of your ability points into physical scores.

Another factor is that in PnP, sometimes a character would benefit from wearing light armor even without enough dex to fill it out. The +50% running speed boost can be well worth some lost AC. But in DDO, no armor type has a speed benefit over another.

[Shamguard]

What the game needs is to either slow down the power level of items, or bring in plain clothing that can be enchanted, both are often used in PnP to resolve the armor issue.

[Laith]

Compare full plate to leather. Is the difference between padded armor and plain clothing that great?

It shouldn't be. Padded armor is only 2 AC, and would be about the equivalent of wearing a heavy coat.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

it's not a heavy coat. it may be the same weight, but it's distributed completely differently, of a different material, and with special chemical treating that limits flexability (but improves durability).

if your heavy coat has a 10% potential to deflect any lethal blow though, the comparison holds.

[Mercules]

Another factor is that in PnP, sometimes a character would benefit from wearing light armor even without enough dex to fill it out. The +50% running speed boost can be well worth some lost AC. But in DDO, no armor type has a speed benefit over another.

Another good point. I've seen characters choose Medium armor over Heavy in PnP because while combat movement among them is the same, running in Heavy only gives you a x3, not a x4. Always fun when the Orc horde can catch up to you.

[EinarMal]

Jeez this is too easy instead of mithral "cloth" type armors need the kevlar modifier.

Problem solved....

[skraus1]

There are 3 robes that don't look like dresses and give you armor bonuses ranging from 4-6. Without any buffs whatso ever, in a robe, my ranger can pull off a 45, 50 with his own bark.

[Dark_Vengeance]

it's not a heavy coat. it may be the same weight, but it's distributed completely differently, of a different material, and with special chemical treating that limits flexability (but improves durability).

if your heavy coat has a 10% potential to deflect any lethal blow though, the comparison holds.

Yeah, it's distributed differently...it's distributed evenly across the body. That's why it's supposed to be easier to fight in padded armor compared to a heavy coat.

Regardless, the difference between padded armor and robes should not be greater than the difference between leather and full plate. Which it currently is.

And we can talk about removing high stat items and movement rates all day. That probably won't happen. My guess is that we will get one of the following, if anything:

1) Some type of benefit for light-armor proficient and medium armor proficient classes to use those respective armors. Some examples:

a) Perhaps allowing for class specific enhancements to get the equivalent of Armor Mastery on armors typical of their class.

or

b) Perhaps allow +Armor items to stack 100% with non-metal armors, +50% (rounded down) with light metal armors, and +33% (rounded down) with medium armors. These items would still not stack with heavy armors.

or

c) Adjusting the Max Dex bonuses upwards on light and medium armors to make them more appealing.

2) A max dex bonus on robes (basically nerfing robes). A max of +10 would seem likely, because it is in perfect line with the AC-to-MaxDex relationship found on other armors.

3) Both.

I'm just trying to come up with something workable that can get us something from #1, and not #2 or #3.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Shamguard]

Yeah, it's distributed differently...it's distributed evenly across the body. That's why it's supposed to be easier to fight in padded armor compared to a heavy coat.

Regardless, the difference between padded armor and robes should not be greater than the difference between leather and full plate. Which it currently is.

And we can talk about removing high stat items and movement rates all day. That probably won't happen. My guess is that we will get one of the following, if anything:

1) Some type of benefit for light-armor proficient and medium armor proficient classes to use those respective armors. Some examples:

a) Perhaps allowing for class specific enhancements to get the equivalent of Armor Mastery on armors typical of their class.

or

b) Perhaps allow +Armor items to stack 100% with non-metal armors, +50% (rounded down) with light metal armors, and +33% (rounded down) with medium armors. These items would still not stack with heavy armors.

or

c) Adjusting the Max Dex bonuses upwards on light and medium armors to make them more appealing.

2) A max dex bonus on robes (basically nerfing robes). A max of +10 would seem likely, because it is in perfect line with the AC-to-MaxDex relationship found on other armors.

3) Both.

I'm just trying to come up with something workable that can get us something from #1, and not #2 or #3.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

I think the real issue is they have put armor buffs on robes, because this is the only non-armor clothing they currently have in the game.

My problem is if they nerf robes by giving them a Dex AC limit it will nerf any high Dex Built character. Unless they give us replacement clothing that doesn't have Dex limits.

Personaly I think your making an issue about something that really doesn't affect game play and are trying to fix it by making it a game play issue.

If you get a better AC by not wearing armor then don't wear armor. If robes are a problem for you then don't wear robes. Just make sure your character is a Drow female, I really don't want to see your Dwarf without anything on.

[Dark_Vengeance]

I think the real issue is they have put armor buffs on robes, because this is the only non-armor clothing they currently have in the game.

My problem is if they nerf robes by giving them a Dex AC limit it will nerf any high Dex Built character. Unless they give us replacement clothing that doesn't have Dex limits.

Personaly I think your making an issue about something that really doesn't affect game play and are trying to fix it by making it a game play issue.

If you get a better AC by not wearing armor then don't wear armor. If robes are a problem for you then don't wear robes. Just make sure your character is a Drow female, I really don't want to see your Dwarf without anything on.

The problem is that robes are imbalanced. They give resists, deathblock, heavy fort, and many other benefits at a lower ML than any armor. They have no max dex bonus (since when does an arcane caster need a +14 ac from their dex?). And moreover, they don't require any armor proficiencies.

And people in this thread are saying "that's fine, do whatever with robes, but give us normal clothes". As long as those normal clothes aren't magical, that's fine. I can respect someone not wanting to walk around in underwear, but when you have several classes eschewing armor completely because they can get a better overall AC without it, that's a problem.

A starting DEX of 18, combined with a +6 DEX item and 2 APs worth of DEX enhancement is enough to exceed the max Dex Bonus on Leather...and that's if you didn't use any tomes, take anymore enhancements, or spend any stat points on DEX. If your character is DEX-based, it's a virtual lock that eventually you will be better off in robes.

Bring the noise.
Cheers...........

[Mercules]

Yeah, it's distributed differently...it's distributed evenly across the body. That's why it's supposed to be easier to fight in padded armor compared to a heavy coat.

Regardless, the difference between padded armor and robes should not be greater than the difference between leather and full plate. Which it currently is.

And we can talk about removing high stat items and movement rates all day. That probably won't happen. My guess is that we will get one of the following, if anything:

1) Some type of benefit for light-armor proficient and medium armor proficient classes to use those respective armors. Some examples:

a) Perhaps allowing for class specific enhancements to get the equivalent of Armor Mastery on armors typical of their class.

or

b) Perhaps allow +Armor items to stack 100% with non-metal armors, +50% (rounded down) with light metal armors, and +33% (rounded down) with medium armors. These items would still not stack with heavy armors.

or

c) Adjusting the Max Dex bonuses upwards on light and medium armors to make them more appealing.

2) A max dex bonus on robes (basically nerfing robes). A max of +10 would seem likely, because it is in perfect line with the AC-to-MaxDex relationship found on other armors.

3) Both.

I'm just trying to come up with something workable that can get us something from #1, and not #2 or #3.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

"Nuke it from orbit..." glance at Ripley and grin, "It's the only way to be sure."

[Shamguard]

The problem is that robes are imbalanced. They give resists, deathblock, heavy fort, and many other benefits at a lower ML than any armor. They have no max dex bonus (since when does an arcane caster need a +14 ac from their dex?). And moreover, they don't require any armor proficiencies.

And people in this thread are saying "that's fine, do whatever with robes, but give us normal clothes". As long as those normal clothes aren't magical, that's fine. I can respect someone not wanting to walk around in underwear, but when you have several classes eschewing armor completely because they can get a better overall AC without it, that's a problem.

A starting DEX of 18, combined with a +6 DEX item and 2 APs worth of DEX enhancement is enough to exceed the max Dex Bonus on Leather...and that's if you didn't use any tomes, take anymore enhancements, or spend any stat points on DEX. If your character is DEX-based, it's a virtual lock that eventually you will be better off in robes.

Bring the noise.
Cheers...........

The problem with nerfing robes is there is nothing you can get on a robe that you cann't get on an item the goes into another body slot, cloak, ring, belt, ect that are avalable to all classes. Nomaly to wear a robe you have to use AC Bracers to get your AC boost and that is the issues I have with your nerf the robes solution. A Dex. based character would have to give up to body slots (Armor and Bracers) to get to use his full Dex AC.

So your solution is to punish the classes that take penalties for wearing anything but light armor and gimp their only means of rasing their AC by boosting their Dex. Yes, if you build a character who's main source of AC is through their Dexerity then eventually you will give up wearing armor. This is by game design. Your solution of punishing them for this by making them give up a magic item body slot is unbalanced. Just remember that Dex AC is suppose to be lost if a character is "unable to react to a blow" (3.5 PHB pg 136). I don't know if this is implemented in DDO but if it is (or isn't), just another balance issue to consider.

Of course robes give some bonuses at lower ML because that is all they give and they take a full body slot. The thing about item balance gomes down to what does it take to get the benefits You want and what does it take for another class to get the same type of benefits.

Just something to think about:
Fighter in +5 Deathblock full plate with +6 STR Bracers.
Rogue (with 32 DEX) in Deathblock robe, and AC +6 Bracers.

Just for the sake of argument all the rest of the equipment is equal. (I know in the RL they won't be but just play along)

Who is better off? (just remember the rogue will also have to use another body slot to get that 32 Dex that the fighter could put a CON or Heavy fort item in.)

I don't think robes are unbalance if you really look at the game as a whole. Game balance is just as much what can other classes do at the same level as it is how much can I twink my level 14 rogue?

Just think about it.

[Gimpster]

And people in this thread are saying "that's fine, do whatever with robes, but give us normal clothes". As long as those normal clothes aren't magical, that's fine. I can respect someone not wanting to walk around in underwear, but when you have several classes eschewing armor completely because they can get a better overall AC without it, that's a problem.

It's only a problem insofar as you believe inflated ability scores are a problem. Elf rangers can get +5 dex over PnP due to enhancements, similar to how human fighters can get +4 str over PnP.

Increasing your ability scores beyond normal limits leads to advantages such as getting more AC without armor. That's the natural and correct consequence of super-high abilities. If you want to say that elf rangers shouldn't enjoy the benefit of their high dex, then you should take away the attack and damge bonuses a human fighter gets from high str.

[Gimpster]

a) Perhaps allowing for class specific enhancements to get the equivalent of Armor Mastery on armors typical of their class.

That would be a good partial fix (and is something I suggested long ago).

Since fighters are allowed to get enhancements to "mithralize" a regular fullplate, rogues and rangers could get enhancements to raise the max dex on armors that look appropriate for the class to wear. In a way, the Elf Dex + Rogue Dex enhancements are what causes the problem, so it's reasonable that even more enhancements could help fix it.

It could be taken further so that enhancements can boost the defense of other kinds of sub-optimal armor, like Barbarbian Hide Mastery and Elf-racial Elven Chainmail Mastery, which at the cost of a few AP would enable players to get a different look for the character and to get use from some otherwise junk items.

[Dark_Vengeance]

Just something to think about:
Fighter in +5 Deathblock full plate with +6 STR Bracers.
Rogue (with 32 DEX) in Deathblock robe, and AC +6 Bracers.

I would respond to a lot more of this post, but it's almost 5pm on a Friday here.

A 14th level fighter with +5 full plate and +6 STR bracers will have 13 AC from his armor, a maximum of 1 from his DEX without enhancements, and will need to spend a body slot for the armor, a second item slot for a deathblock item, and a third slot for the bracers. So ignoring all other items and assuming a human with a DEX bonus of 1, that fighter has 24 AC and 3 item slots used. A set of +5 deathblock armor is ML 16, and can only spawn as a race-restricted item on 14th level quests on elite during a +1 loot weekend (and to my knowledge, nobody has ever actually pulled one).

A 14th level rogue (as per your example) receives +11 AC from DEX and 6 from the bracers....the deathblock uses up the body slot. If we ignore all other items and assume human, the rogue has 27 AC and uses 3 item slots...one for the robe, one for the bracers, and one for the DEX item (because 32 DEX cannot currently be reached without one).

So let's review...the rogue in this scenario gets 3 more AC, plus rogue skills, plus stealth, plus backstabbing, plus evasion, plus extra skill points. Now granted, he won't do the same damage as the fighter with +6 STR, but with a DEX that high, he can take finesse and hit just as often (for even more damage if he can hit the mob without drawing aggro)...and in an era where paralyzers are common, DPS isn't necessarily the most important aspect of melee.

I'm sorry but I disagree. You just gave me an example where (all other things being equal) a rogue in a robe is better suited for melee than a fighter in full plate.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............