In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[Spookydodger]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

And they have fewer spell points. And your notion that they can hit the same DC is fallous:

Overview
Bard DC: Charisma+ spell level + enhancement + item + feat
Wizard DC: Intelligence + spell level + enhancement + item + feat

Feats
Bard feat slots at 14: 4 (5 if you are human)
Wizard feat slots at 14: 6 (4 character slots 2 metamagic slots, *1 more if you are human)
*Corrected. Thanks MT.

Maximum number of schools to apply focus to (spell focus +1 and greater spell focus +1 (for a +2 total)
2 spell schools
2 spell schools. Leaving 2 additional feats for metamagic uses such as extend, height, etc.*
*Corrected. Thanks MT.

Stat Bonus
Primary stats: Typically this is lower than a Wizard's Intelligence because most wizards don't need to spread their points to as many things. More bards require dexterity, con, and strength than a wizard. So, on average:

Bard average Charisma: 26 with full bonuses.
Wizard average Intelligence: 30 with full bonuses.

Spell Level
As has been stated before, most Bard spells are lower level for the same spell than Wizards or Sorcerers. This has the benefit of a reduced cost (by a very small amount), but a lower save DC as well:
Mass Sugestion:
Bard: 5th level. base save DC 15. Cost: (I believe) 30sp
Wizard: 6th level. base save DC 16. Cost: 35

Item Bonus
Irrelevant as both classes can use the same items to the same effect.

Enhancements
Also Irrelevant. The only enhancements that these classes have to boost DCs only do so on wands. And for those, they both have access to them!

So at the end of the day, Bard DCs can be anywhere from 0 to 6 points lower. This assumes that the Bard runs away from the party every time they buff their spell save DCs. I don't think giving the Bard +1 DC to his spells, +1 to others, and more spell points, is going to break the game, nor shun others in favor of a bard.

And, at the end of the day, if people go for MORE diversity in a group (including a bard) as opposed to less (more Wizards, Sorcerers, Fighters, Barbarians, Clerics), isn't that a good thing?

[Spookydodger]

If you are talking about the FoD/Flesh2Stone instakills then you are probably right, but then bards don't get FoD or Flesh to Stone - so it's not an interesting point. I don't see casters running around casting symbol spells all the time simply because they are higher level spells (= higher DC), and other than FoD/Flesh2Stone, I would say the most useful spells are the same ones bards do get and get at a lower level. Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.

And bards get fewer spell points, right? Even with a 10% bonus that only they would get (assuming they don't share), that doesn't make up the difference between them (not that the difference should be balanced. Pure casters are meant to have more mana.

If fascinate gets fixed, my bard will have around a DC 50 + d20 enchantment. I don't see many wizards or sorcerors achieving anywhere near that. If it doesn't get fixed, it's even more effective than that. Bard's aren't made obsolete by the game mechanics, it's mainly the playerbase that doesn't have a clue.

I'm particularly scared that enhancements like these will give a clue to most of those players - and then we'll see nothing but bards everywhere.

The main thing that is "broken" about fascinate is that, in PnP, fascinate cannot be used once combat has begun. And once they do start a fascinate, they have to keep playing.

If Fascinate were to be fixed, it would have to be done differently in many ways. Firstly, it would have to be a toggle effect with a maximum duration. Secondly, since almost no mobs we encounter are NOT automatically hostile, it would have to be something like "can only be used before mobs take damage", anything that is damaged at the time fascinate is used cannot be fascinated (meaning that yes, if they are healed, they could be placated). Then Perform could once again be used the way it was meant to be used. Another problem is that the skill bonuses one can have in this game are much more easily boosted. I don't recall the last time I saw a +13 perform item in PnP, but I can find them with fair regularity here. Once perform becomes useful, it might need to be rarer, or taken out, perhaps.

I'm all for letting things that aren't game breaking go without complaint. I found most of the complaints about the dragonmarks silly and lacking in imagination. The dragonmarks aren't overpowered, though, and add flavor to the game without breaking it.

Other than the cost in feats to get the upper tiers of abilities, as compared to other costs in the game, I thought Dragonmarks were jim-dandy. Spending 3 precious feats in order to cast a spell which has limited use smacks of insanity unless you really don't care.

If anything, I think that these are more on the mark. Enhancements that have a decent cost and provide a real benefit when measured against the rest of the game.

[Gimpster]

The point of all of this was that the damage difference isn't that great, what most paladins have trouble with is hitting because, while they have the same BaB as fighters, they don't often have all the feats to back it up.

There is exactly one feat to help hit which fighters can get that paladins can't: Greater Weapon Focus. Additionally, fighters have an easier time affording Weapon Focus, so that gives them a total +2 from feats.
And then they have an enhancement for +3 strength, which if it brings them to an even number is another +2 attack, for +4 total.

Meanwhile, the Paladin casts Divine Favor for +3 attack and is only -1 behind the fighter.

[MysticTheurge]

Maximum number of schools to apply focus to (spell focus +1 and greater spell focus +1 (for a +2 total)
2 spell schools
3 spell schools

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.

[Spookydodger]

Many of the cc spells dont have the charisma mod into the dc, just the caster level

anyway...

Isn't this incorrect? Don't ALL spells incorporate the caster's primary stat bonus into the save-DC of the spell?

[Gimpster]

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.

Yes, but the fact that wizards get bonus feats opens up their generic feat slots from being spent on metamagic. Every bard will get Extend Spell, which costs a feat, but wizards get it (and Empower and Heighten) basically for free.

[Gimpster]

If Fascinate were to be fixed, it would have to be done differently in many ways. Firstly, it would have to be a toggle effect with a maximum duration.

The way to fix Fascinate would be to give it a saving throw, and to compute that saving throw by a different formula than in PnP. That's only fair to account for the fact fascinate is more powerful and can be used in the middle of combat. Instead of the DC being equal to the perform check, it should be more like d20 + perform /3, or some such.

[Spookydodger]

The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

You mean while using the same buffs that they give out to said melee'ers?

Bards are cool. They can buff up to be decent at casting and decent at fighting.

• Fighters still outdo them in damage, attack bonus, hitpoints.

• Paladins still outdo them in saves.

• Sorcerers outdo them in casting speed, spell points, and spell DC

• Wizards outdo them in spell points, diversity of spells, and greatly in spell DC

• Clerics outdo them in healing and also have types of spells that Bards can't even contemplate unless they use scrolls, which are expensive and unreliable in many situations

• Rogues are rogues. Not much can duplicate all the things they do.

Perhaps the only class that needs to worry about Bard ascension is Rangers, but perhaps that's because Rangers area also jack-of-all-trades with a bit more fighting and a bit less casting. I don't think they'll mind the Bard being along, though, to be honest.

[Spookydodger]

The way to fix Fascinate would be to give it a saving throw, and to compute that saving throw by a different formula than in PnP. That's only fair to account for the fact fascinate is more powerful and can be used in the middle of combat. Instead of the DC being equal to the perform check, it should be more like d20 + perform /3, or some such.

Doesn't it have a saving throw now? I could have sworn I have not been able to fascinate really high-level (not red or purple named) mobs before.

[Hafeal]

Quarion -

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?

Here is the list of new spells we are currently working on for Update 4.2: Searing Heights:

Spells for Clerics:

Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.


Order's Wrath
Evocation [Lawful]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not dazed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to lawful creatures, and can only be cast by lawful or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a chaotic caster.

[Gimpster]

Doesn't it have a saving throw now? I could have sworn I have not been able to fascinate really high-level (not red or purple named) mobs before.

A variety of monsters may have immunity to mental effects, but that doesn't mean they're making a saving throw.

[Gimpster]

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?

The answer to that question is already contained in the text you pasted: yes, they are blocked from casters of the opposite alignment.

It seems likely that even UMD-bards will not be able to use scrolls of the spell if it opposes their alignment.

[Hafeal]

The answer to that question is already contained in the text you pasted: yes, they are blocked from casters of the opposite alignment.

It seems likely that even UMD-bards will not be able to use scrolls of the spell if it opposes their alignment.

Thanks Gimpster. I missed that in the description.

[LordDamax]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

Actually, no.

We assume stats are the same, since there is no difference. We assume feats are the same (although mages get more feats and can more easily 'afford' spell focus feats). We assume gear is the same. So the only variable is the base casting power of the class, and the bard enhancement.

So, a level 14 bard, casts a heightened spell:
10 Base + 5 for the heightened spell + 1 for Spellsinger bonus = 16 base DC

A mage or sorcerer, out of range of the bard's song, or in another group:
10 Base + 7 for the heightened spell = 17 base DC

Heighten raises your DC up to your MAXIMUM CASTABLE spell level. Bards, at lv 15, cap out at 5th level spells. Mages, sorcerers and clerics cap out at 7th level spells.

In fact at 20th level, a Bard caps out at 6th level spells and all others at 9th level. The gap widens in favor of the not-bard.


Sorry.

[Spookydodger]

They're not affected by the damage reduction if you bypass it. That is, you get full strength and critical damage against a Reaver (or the like) when you're wielding a Good and Cold Iron weapon.

Granted. The only things that ignore damage reduction if you don't bypass it are other effects. Such as flaming or Bane.

Sneak attack is affected by DR. The point that was made is that Sneak Attack damage will help you overcome DR meaning you'll do some damage and therefore "proc" your weapon not bypass DR meaning you'd deal full, normal damage.

Oh, my mistake.

[And just to clarify, my point wasn't ever that a +5 Holy weapon is statistically better than a +X Greater Bane (against the appropriate target), just that there's something to be said for ease of use and relative availability. Once this spell is introduced, every 14th level paladin has access to a +5 Holy weapon if they want it. The same can't be said for a full suite of Greater Bane weapons.]

Granted. But really, this weapon only replaces at most, what, 2 bane weapons? Lawful evil outsider and Chaotic evil outsider (or evil outsider?)?

Maybe it also replaces a Holy of Pure good weapon, too? +5 is not too shabby. Demons are chaotic and evil. Or Neutral and evil? So you replace 2 bane weapons, on a good day. Now, consider that in terms of backpack slots. You are only saving 1 backpack slot. In terms of spells, you are replacing a level 1 (protection against evil) with a level 4.

This doesn't seem like a great benefit for being a pure Paladin. It needs to be better to be a good choice.

Am I off the mark in this regard?

Yes, it makes it easier to get a suitable weapon. But geez, I must be lucky or jaded, because I have only been able to ransack PoP 2 times since it came out, and every character I have has something suitable. It just doesn't seem like enough to justify being a full paladin, 4th level spell slot, and a backpack slot that might otherwise go to a good weapon.

[Spookydodger]

And people, I feel I should point this out. I'll highlight and bold for ya.

Whoops... I don't know how I missed that. For some reason I had it in my head that it was targeted. I must have been confusing it with some of the other enhancements or spells.

My mistake.

[Spookydodger]

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.

Yes, you're right. My mistake.

Though it does make affording the spell-focus feats much more plausible.

[Spookydodger]

Quarion -

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?

More accurately, they won't have any effect. I believe, by the way they've worded it, you can still take them, but they won't do anything if you are of the opposite alignment as the spell.

[Drfirewater79]

[quote\]
New Enhancements for Bards:

Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Virtuoso:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator

"Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."

Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

"Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."

[\quote]

OH NO YOU DIDNT

dont even tell me that your idea of coping out on prestige classes is to make them enhancements .......

ok we shouldnt have enhancements as is and we should have prestige classes so saying hey we are gonna implament them as the same thing isnt so bad right .... WRONG what happens to the other bonuses you are suppost to get like spell level increase special powers and abilites based on the level of prestige class you have

ar you planning on doing as enhancements instead of levels? are we gonna be taking prestige classes in our enhancements????

so now i will beable to have at max level a lvl 20 toon with 8 levels of a prstige class in enhancements making my toon an effective lvl 28 character?

dont get me wrong if that is what you are planning it would be cool take prestige classes as seperate levels so that you could max your toon and still have something to work for but we arent at lvl 20 yet and you already complain we are overpowered (which i think is bull punish good players for playing good) dont you think one of two things will happen here

1) we get way over powered cause we didnt have to trade levels for presitge class power

2) we dont get as much as we are suppost to get in the prestige class and we get huge player number drops again

really i love this game but its hard enough to find a party at some times if we lose anymore people it could get bad fast

read the books play a little real dnd from time to time ad remember what it means to be a fantasy relm game people play dnd to become powerful to slaughter there enmies and have them trembling in there wake

if it wasnt for that no one would play PnP

Dont under power us all the time and dont give us more then what we are expecting just give us what we are expecting from a game that deserves to be as good as its name sake and has that potential and you will get the old DDO'ers back especially with monks in the near future and with druids early next year plus getting to lvl 20 the game has lots of room to change and get better but we have to make it that far first lol

baby steps

[Spookydodger]

OH NO YOU DIDNT

dont even tell me that your idea of coping out on prestige classes is to make them enhancements .......

I think this is a foregone conclusion and one that most have been aware of for at least 2 months, when the new enhancement system came out.

I personally like this MUCH better.

• First, you can change these. I doubt we'll have any real way to respec our level choices, including prestige class choices

• Second, now you can mix-and-match more. You won't be locked into one set of benefits, as much.

• Third, easier development. It's much easier to implement these little nuggets of Prestige Classes than it is to develop a whole class, put in all the game changes (new icons, new trainers, new web entries, etc etc), and balance it with existing classes as a whole.

Otherwise enhancement lines would drive the games power above and beyond any hope of being near pnp with a whole new line of power levels available in the game.

To harken back to the line from an ooooold commercial with a little DDO bastardaization: Enhancement lines as prestige classes: you're soaking in it!