In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[MysticTheurge]

Shouldn't this be 10/evil?

The Spell Compendium version of the spell is 5/evil. I don't know where the 10/evil description is from.

This should really be circle of protection. Additionally, it should modify an existing weapon.

Since DDO Magic Circle Against Evil really does nothing more than cast PfE on everyone near by, it's pretty much the same thing.

Also, since Holy Sword overwrites any magical effects on your current weapon, the odd component feature also works pretty much as in D&D with the slight added annoyance of having to carry specially prepared weapons.

These seem cool enough. Might want a bump up the damage to account for buffed hp.

No other damage spell in the game has had it's numbers modified because of enemy hit points why would these be any different?

(Personally, rather than argue for these three spells to be boosted, I'd rather lobby for an overall increase in damage done by damaging spells.

A lot of overlap with other spells, but decent enough, and clerics will thank you greatly for not only giving a useful 2nd level spell at higher levels, but also letting them ditch their shield clickies. I am a bit concerned that it totally negates force-missles, as that's not an original intent. Not sure how that will play out.

Neither clerics nor wizards have a spell that gives a resistance bonus to all saving throws. Clerics have no spell that blocks magic missiles. If there's one spell that I'm excited about it's this one.

As for blocking force-missiles, Shield has always done this, and when I made a big fuss about it once everyone told me I was making a big deal over nothing and that it was actually good for the players (which I grew to be convinced of myself).

Cool enough, I guess. Especially for a little boost at higher levels if you don't have another bard to serenade you. Actually, isn't that a competence bonus? That might be even better.

Circumstance modifiers are a huge bonus, largely because they stack with each other (unless they're from the same source). This spell is essentially a +1 to hit/skills on top of everything else for bards.

There is no precedent that I know of that would cause this to be the case. Historically everything is based off of ranks, not total modifier.

No, fascinate save is based on perform modifier, as well as your countersong roll.

Somehow I think they put in the dragonmark enhancements because people were having annuerisms over spending 3 feats to be able to cast 1 spell per rest for the greater mark.

They actually probably put them in because it's a pretty standard feature of dragonmark abilities, to be able to gain more uses per day.

Maybe some future thing will give them a DR from a class feature. Skin of the Celestial, or some such. Though that's probably where they got this spell from.

Paladins have no class feature like this. They got the spell from the spell of the same name in the spell compendium.

The problem w holy sword and it's been discussed a LOT, it's not better than any weapons you already have 99% of the time for 99% of the Paladins out there. It's not even on par.
A temp spell adding +2d6 "good" dmg on an existing weapon woulda been better.

That is not how Holy Sword works in D&D. Yes you can cast it on an existing weapon, but it overwrites and replaces all magical effects which the weapon already has. Adding +2d6 (i.e. Holy) to an existing weapon, on top of everything else the weapon already has, would not be in keeping with the D&D rules for the spell.

I sometimes wonder if the designers take the stuff thats currently in game into account, +1 gr bane > Holy Sword 99% of the time.

A Good and Cold Iron weapon is actually fairly useful against creatures with that sort of DR. Also if it comes down to carrying a greater bane weapon for every time of monster I might ever run across or carrying a small stack (assuming they stack) of these specially prepared Holy Sword weapons, I might do the latter and just sell of my Greater Banes.

Angel Skin, 6 seconds/level for DR5/evil, not even DR5/- (ha!), in game +5 Adamantine FP is not hard to obtain, Golden greaves DR3/-, Lailat ring Stoneskins clickies CL12 x3, thats 120 points of DR10/adamantine x3 /rest or simply getting StoneSkin from an caster/scroll/wand. I'm willing to wager there are more mobs that dp "evil" dmg than adamantine.

I've never understood this "There are other ways to get this ability (or something similar) so this new way to get it is USELESS!!" attitude people seem to have. If you have a Sigil of Earth, then yeah, maybe you'll be using Angel Skin less than other people. But come on, it's a first level spell. That means Paladins can start using it at 4th level. There aren't a lot of 4th level people with access to Sigil of Earth (or even the Stoneskin spell). Yeah it's only 2 more points of DR than Adamantine FP or the Golden Greaves, but it's 2 fewer points of damage every time you get hit. It's really not hard to see how that stacks up over time to a pretty serious effect.

Thanks all the same but I'd rather get Nightshield as a "new to me" spell for a Paladin than both Angel Skin and Holy Sword.

Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

[MysticTheurge]

Read my posts. I am not asking for something for nothing. I said I wouldn't mind if they substituted Bard: Diplomacy II instead, since that would actually be a functional enhancement. Yes, the enhancements fit from a role-playing perspective. However, the role-playing angle is the ONLY reason to take those enhancements. They have zero function in the game. No other enhancement line has no effect on the game or your character.

Would it really, then, make more sense to, I don't know, ask them to fix perform so it matters?

[Freeman]

Would it really, then, make more sense to, I don't know, ask them to fix perform so it matters?

Again, if you read my posts, my requests were that they either fix perform, or substitute this requirement for something that works until they can fix it. If they had announced this at the same time they announced that Perform now factored into Fascinate, I would have no problem with it. But until they fix Perform, I don't think they should make the enhancement to perform(Or the skill focus) a requirement for anything.

[EspyLacopa]

(Personally, rather than argue for these three spells to be boosted, I'd rather lobby for an overall increase in damage done by damaging spells.

Like boosting spells that do d6 damage to do 5 avg instead of 3.5? And spells using a d8 doing 5.5 instead of 4.5 And of course, spells with d4 do 3.5 avg instead of 2.5

Like that?

[samagee]

Since the implementation of holy sword is coming can we maybe expect to see some sort of implementation for magic weapon (Clr lvl1, Pal lvl1, Sor/Wiz lvl1) and greater magic weapon (Clr lvl4, Pal lvl3, Sor/Wiz lvl3) in the future? Possibly, keen edge (Sor/Wiz lvl3) as well?

One would have thought all those would have gone in together. Makes me wonder what the hiden agenda is.

[LordDamax]

One would have thought all those would have gone in together. Makes me wonder what the hiden agenda is.

Workload?

[elmerius]

NIce and all but I really want to see some more (pure ranger changes)

[gpk]

I've never understood this "There are other ways to get this ability (or something similar) so this new way to get it is USELESS!!" attitude people seem to have. If you have a Sigil of Earth, then yeah, maybe you'll be using Angel Skin less than other people. But come on, it's a first level spell. That means Paladins can start using it at 4th level. There aren't a lot of 4th level people with access to Sigil of Earth (or even the Stoneskin spell). Yeah it's only 2 more points of DR than Adamantine FP or the Golden Greaves, but it's 2 fewer points of damage every time you get hit. It's really not hard to see how that stacks up over time to a pretty serious effect.
Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

Really last i checked it was listed as:

Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level

The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.

How can I get level 2 spell as level 4 pally? That would be awesome!

That is not how Holy Sword works in D&D. Yes you can cast it on an existing weapon, but it overwrites and replaces all magical effects which the weapon already has. Adding +2d6 (i.e. Holy) to an existing weapon, on top of everything else the weapon already has, would not be in keeping with the D&D rules for the spell.

I know it's not how it works in PnP, in the context of DDO it's PNP implementation would be pointless.

Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

Neither clerics nor wizards have a spell that gives a resistance bonus to all saving throws. Clerics have no spell that blocks magic missiles. If there's one spell that I'm excited about it's this one.

As for blocking force-missiles, Shield has always done this, and when I made a big fuss about it once everyone told me I was making a big deal over nothing and that it was actually good for the players (which I grew to be convinced of myself).

But you're saying have no problem with it blocking Force Missiles right? Your cleric must be happy. I guess the goose and the gander are entirely different beasts after all.

A Good and Cold Iron weapon is actually fairly useful against creatures with that sort of DR. Also if it comes down to carrying a greater bane weapon for every time of monster I might ever run across or carrying a small stack (assuming they stack) of these specially prepared Holy Sword weapons, I might do the latter and just sell of my Greater Banes

Im confused does this mean you would replace your +1 (or better) greater bane weapons with a +5 holy for mobs other than DR/good+cold iron? Best let the ppl on your server know when your selling your greater banes so they can reap the benefits of that decision.


As long as were talking about attitudes, and you opened this can of worms; a lot of players and I who actually play DDO (not PnP)and yes have even done teh Titan Raid (gasp, have you yet?) are a little worried that ppl who LIVE in these forums have the devs ears; squeaky wheel gets the oil and such. It's been said a million times DDO is NOT PNP.
It's funny that some of the stuff paladins have been askin IS in PnP; of course it's understanadable not everythign can make it in all at once but when you "nerf" a class to bring it more in line with pnp least you can do is add some other stuff, that one must assume has been on the back burner for a long time, otherwise it's damned hard to see it as rebalancing and not just as a "nerf".

Going back to my earlier point, the vast majority of players DON'T post in the official forums. I think the devs need to keep this in mind, just because said players are out there playing YOUR game and post once in a while it doesn't mean their opinion is any less valid than someone who averages 70 posts/day with post that most of the time revert to the argument "in pnp its this or pnp its that". If anything feedback from people who post a LOT should be taken with a grain of salt.

The sad thing is many many of the players playing the game I've spoken to share this opinion but for whatever reason (often not wanting to "waster" their time debating forum "regulars") actualyl have a lot of good insight and feedback.

I invite players who DON'T post often to maybe take a few minutes to reply to important topics and let their voices be heard. I can tell you as a software dev myself feedback is GREATLY appreciate by any dev team, even if it can come across as a bit negative at times and as an ego bruise.

gpk

[Freeman]

Long post about getting opinions from people who don't post on the forums

Are you aware that they sent out a survey just a few weeks ago? It didn't go to just people who post on the boards. They probably sent them to a random sample of people with active accounts. My wife has never created a forum account and received a survey. I've been active on the boards since day 1, and I didn't receive one. The Devs are aware that the boards don't represent all the players, and they do take steps to get feedback in other forms. But this is still the largest source of feedback available to them.(Note I said largest. That doesn't mean best)

[gpk]

Are you aware that they sent out a survey just a few weeks ago? It didn't go to just people who post on the boards. They probably sent them to a random sample of people with active accounts. My wife has never created a forum account and received a survey. I've been active on the boards since day 1, and I didn't receive one. The Devs are aware that the boards don't represent all the players, and they do take steps to get feedback in other forms. But this is still the largest source of feedback available to them.(Note I said largest. That doesn't mean best)

Yes i just wonder how many of those surveys got filled out. I'm hoping MANY. It's very valuable to a design team to get feedback from non-forum-regulars.

[Freeman]

Yes i just wonder how many of those surveys got filled out. I'm hoping MANY. It's very valuable to a design team to get feedback from non-forum-regulars.

True, but the problem is that they can't force people to give feedback. The good thing about the forums is that anything they post about will receive feedback. If they posted the kind of coffee they have at the office, the thread would go on for pages about what they should be drinking instead. And in most cases, the feedback on here is going to mirror the position of people online. There are some exceptions, I'm sure, such as the Paladin's Holy Sword spell. I don't think the majority of players would feel it was as weak as the majority of posters seem to think it is.

[KristovK]

gpk, I'm pretty sure the devs and Turbine as a company in general know that only 10-20% of the game's players actually use the forums and only a percentage of those people actually bother to post on the forums. It's been that way since before games were played online, games that sold millions of copies MIGHT have 10000 people who used the company website and forum, if that. Hasn't changed, hundreds of thousands of people playing an online game, a few tens of thousand using the official forums for said game...from WoW to Everquest to DDO to Quake to CS:S to Battlefield2 to Spades on MSN.

Most people who are pleased with something don't ***** about it, pure and simple, so the lack of complaining by the majority of the minority who use the forums says something.

As for MT's mistaking Angelskin for a level 1 instead of level 2 spell...maybe it's a level 1 in the book he's got, I honestly don't know, I don't have that book and can't see, or maybe it was just a typo...*shrug*...doesn't really matter, his point still stands, it's a good spell for a class that otherwise doesn't GET any DR from feats/abilities or spells on their own. My paladin will enjoy the spell and he'll use it. 5 DR/evil is better then anything else he can get short of a stoneskin and he can give it to others as well...except that damned Barbarian or Bard...you know..those lawless heathens a paladin should be having issues with anyway

As for the whole 'nerf' vs balance issue thing...eye of the beholder and all that. I have a capped Wiz and the changes to spell durations and lack of scrolls didn't bother me one bit, I actually like the changes that were made, my Wiz is no longer useless if there's a UMD monkey in the party with a few inventory pages of scrolls who can pretty much solo the quest. That was never part of the game design plan and it was abused to hells and back, took them a bit to correct the oversight, but they did and I'm happy with the fixes made to correct it. My Wiz's spells still work fine, last a good time with Extend on them and actually do more then a scroll could anyway.

As for the good insight and changes offered by many of the players who don't play PnP and don't use the forums...eh...I'll beg to differ with you on that subject. 90% of those are just 'easy button' ideas, ways to make the game simple and fast, which doesn't make it fun, just...easy. The game is already a Monty Haul game, players are too overpowered for their levels, toys are too overpowered for the levels and that has naturally led to mobs being overpowered for the levels. People who play PnP keep using the term 'it's like this/not like this in PnP' for a reason...this game is BASED ON the PnP game and it's supposed to be PnP online in realtime with many people at once...seems I recall it's even advertised as such isn't it? Yeah, it is, so..guess what...the refering to PnP is probably something that's going to stick around. There are differences, many having to do to the realtime/turnbased conversion, others due to oversight or bad design from the start, but they are working on that, and those of us who enjoy and know PnP are happy, generally speaking, that it's moving more and more towards PnP and away from 'easy button'.

[gpk]

I'm all for removing the "easy button" . I have no problem with makin it so you don't solo a quest with a stack of scrolls. My problem with the pnp purists is that many dont seem to actually play the game and don't compare some stuff in the context of DDO. The same old broken record argument (when it's convenient for THEM) of "it's not pnp" is a shallow one and just doesn't hold water imho, there are just too many differences between the 2. I think that when discussing pros and cons of a spell implementation one should look at the context.
Let's use ANgelskin as an example, as a designer I'd ask mysefl (just to list a few off the top of my head):

• Whats the average spell points for a paladin able to cast a 2nd level 2 spell, assuming very few paladin will take it angel skin as their 1st lev 2 spell(in lieu of resist energy)
• At that level what other equipment is easily obtainable that could offer permanent non dispellable nearly equivalent benefits (given the relatively few SPs and a lot of dispelling mobs this is an issue). Are there much better spells available without too much difficulty to the paladin? (Stoneskin from caster, umd wand/scroll)
• At said level is DR5/evil for 6 seconds/level unextended vs DDO mobs (not your whimpy pnp ones) helpful to the player or just a waste of a slot and sp?

Don't get me wrong, I applaud tubine's effort in rebalancing the game, it just seems that some classes get the relative shaft.
During the whole rebalancing thing nearly all the classes got something for what they got taken away with enhancements and stuff, bards averaged longer (and a bit stronger) songs in general, barb lost a bit of max str but gained crit range +2 for ALL weapons when raged (when are they not) , other classes who got durations decreased got more SPs, new spells etc. On a related note I wonder how all these closely spaced +1 loot weekends fit into the big picture, but oh well.

It seems a little hypocritical to me that the pnp purist forum junkies who bang the pnp drum all day long don't seem to have a problem with a non pnp spell implementation when it benefits them; but are so quick to pounce on someone else's non pnp compliant posts.

[Raithe]

The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

[Coldin]

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

Except for the fact that any bard with spellsinger will be boosting everyone else's save DC as well.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Except for the fact that any bard with spellsinger will be boosting everyone else's save DC as well.

And for the fact that Bard spell levels are 1-3 lower than full Arcane (always 3 lower if Bard and Arcane uses heighten).

[wiglin]

The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

Wizard's and Sorcerer's will get level 9 spells while the Bard tops out at level 6 spells. That is a 3 DC difference. If you are in a party with a bard their buff will give you +1 to your dc, so no matter how you slice it bards will be 3 DC behind wizard's and sorcerer's.

If anything this buff will help the crowd control caster bard's from becoming obsolete when the other casters have +3 dc over them in a few more levels.

I like the new enhancements. I am happy with the way they are balanced. Some more useful than others. You can never cater to everyone, and most of the people I have played with never even look at these forums. They don't even care what Turbine does, they just enjoy playing the game and roll with whatever comes out.

Obviously you can't back it up with numbers, but from my experience from playing on Adar and Fernia, most of the player base would fall into this group of people. I have yet to meet someone outside of these forums that really moans and complains about Turbine's decisions for this game, and up until recently I have leveled almost completely from pugs comprising of alot of different people.

[Zorlinta]

The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

Many of the cc spells dont have the charisma mod into the dc, just the caster level

anyway...

TY TURBINE, the changes are awesome keep working hard and please fix fascinate perform requeriment as should be.

yet personally im still have hard time choosing between virtuoso & spellsinger both are so good for my build and gameplay that i would not sure what to choose.

[KristovK]

*chuckle* key words there gpk, benefits them

I was personally surprised as hells when I first discovered that Shield blocks Force Missiles. I'd never noticed that before..probably because I don't use FM much and I'd not had them cast at me that I was aware of, don't look at my combat log with my Wiz unless something suddenly kills me out of nowhere. Was in the Lobster waiting on the Loot Weekend to start, messing around in PvP with some friends, something I generally don't do at all. I cast Force Missile at a buddy, the shield effect popped up on him and no damage. We were both rather shocked because we had no idea that FM could be stopped(I then hit him with FtS and de-leveled him to death with my Dreamspitter, we WERE trying to kill each other ya know). I wonder how many mobs have been casting that spell and I never realized it because I thought it was MM being cast.

I LIKE that it stops FM, but it IS wrong from PnP and it really should be fixed, as should the Nightshield. Of course, in PnP you can get dr/force, which we don't have in DDO, so I guess this little 'alteration' of the spells is an acceptable workaround....for the time being.

And you are correct in one thing, some of the PnP purists haven't played much, if any, of the current high content or done the raids, so they don't realize exactly how unbalanced some things really are. Problem is, the answer to that is often what they want, making the game more true to PnP. Characters are way overpowered in DDO compared to PnP for the same levels, even WITH a high magic/Monty Haul world. Oddly enough, I've seen some of the purists claim that any character of our levels in DDO could get the same things, item wise, as we get because it IS in the PnP rules. They discard that that those rules are to limit what you can get, the highest possible you could have by level is just that, the best you COULD get, not what everyone SHOULD have. Some of that 'easy button' mentality does pervade the PnP purists as well, if it works to their advantage AND is strictly 'by the book'.

Paladins are holy warriors, real pain in the ass to play in PnP due to the strict rules regarding so much of their actions and inactions, but they make up for that by being really good at fighting evil..but that's about it. They don't get the nice AC bonuses like DDO, none of those enhancement lines to boost their own saves and others, no extra Lay on Hands, Smite Evil and so on. Paladins in DDO are actually a fun class to play with a lot of power, and a bit closer to their PnP counterparts now then before, but still way overpowered compared to PnP. Same goes for every class in DDO compared to their PnP counterparts. And that's not comparing them to the mobs in DDO compared to PnP, most of those are about the same except for the inflated hit points..same HD, same saves and AB/AC...on Normal setting that is, Hard and Elite inflate HD/AB/AC and saves along with hit points. Players are way overpowered, so mobs have to be..and we know that song. Dropping Players to the PnP settings across the board and dropping mobs to that as well would really **** off the players, even the PnP purists, believe it or not. How many people would be happy with getting 3 or 4 1st level spells per rest with a Wizard at 1st level? Not KNOWING 3, but only able to CAST 3 spells total. Sorcs would get 3 or 4 as well. Bards would get 1 or 2 per rest. Barbarians could only rage 1 per rest until level 4th level and they couldn't boost the length of the rage or the str or con or saves or dr...and so on. Want to taste what's it like? Try out NWN or NWN2. Now, take that and make it realtime instead of turnbased. Of course, by the same token, that would probably make DDO appeal to a lot more people from the NWN/NWN2 crowd who can't stand the overpowered system DDO has(I was one of those, actually turned down my beta invite due to what I'd heard about DDO and it's overpowered system..not to mention Eberron...***?).

This would of course require a complete revamp of the quests in DDO and a removal of shrines and instead allowing the players to simply 'rest' whenever they felt like..or perhaps do what NWN has as an option, timers. 48 minutes of real time in NWN is 24 hours of game time, and you can set rest timers to anything you want, so you can rest anytime or every X hours. Be simple enough to do with DDO, X real time = Y DDO time and you can only rest every Z DDO hours. Works great in NWN, no reason it wouldn't in DDO. Of course, that means you have to take more time to do quests, since zerging wouldn't be feasible, and you couldn't expect the casters to buff everyone, half the time they wouldn't be able to buff anyone but themselves, and healing by a cleric would be very much a case by case basis, 3 spells ya know, and while each one would probably heal anyone in the party to full...well...it's only 1 hour since we rested, 7 hours to go...sorry Barbarian, but you being down to 8 from 14 isn't that much of an emergency. And the flip side...4hp + con if any for a Wiz/Sorc at 1st level...a kobold sneezing on them kills them Any mob with a 2hder is a scary scary thing for ANY class, one hit can kill a 2rd level Barbarian and any 3rd level other class!

Me, I'd love it, it's what I wanted and it's why I played NWN for years. Lends itself well to the MMO format, but it does NOT lend itself to the zergling style of play so prevelent in DDO, and MMOs in general to be honest. It would garner Turbine that huge(over 4 million active dedicated NWN fans) customer base that Bioware had who so looked forward to DDO(until they saw what was happening) and got turned off by the overpowered system in use and the 10th level cap at release. Ain't gonna happen, I know that, and I enjoy DDO as it is and what seems to be coming in the future, from what we're getting and what the interviews have said. The enhancement lines are starting to worry me a bit, we've been told Prestige classes are in the line but if enhancements are how they plan on delivering them...well...bugger that.

[EspyLacopa]

Of course, in PnP you can get dr/force, which we don't have in DDO,

Could you point out where? The only source I know of is the Ablate Force ability of the Argent Savant, and it's applied against the spell as a whole instead of per missile. Also caps out at 5 force resistance.

There's also the fact that in PnP, Spell Resistance is applied to most damage spells. . .