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  1. #1

    Default Prestige Classes as Enhancements

    Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

    Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.
    • Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
      • Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
      • Requirements:
        • various bow/ranger feats
        • 1 level of Wizard _or_ 1 level of Sorcerer _or_ 1 level of Bard.
        • race: Elf
        • BAB: 6
    • Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
      • Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
      • Requirements:
        • Same as before
        • BAB: 7
    • Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
      • Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
      • Requirements:
        • Same as before
        • BAB: 9
    • Phase Arrow
      • Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
    • Hail of Arrows
      • Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
    • Arrow of Death
      • Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
      • Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
      • Arrow of Disruption - ...
      • Arrow of Banishment - ...
    These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



    I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful
    Last edited by JayDubya; 06-22-2007 at 02:28 PM. Reason: added bards to the requirement list.

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  2. #2
    Community Member Gennerik's Avatar
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    Default I'm not sure why

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

    Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.
    • Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
      • Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
      • Requirements:
        • various bow/ranger feats
        • 1 level of wizard _or_ 1 level of sorcerer
        • race: Elf
        • BAB: 6
    • Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
      • Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
      • Requirements:
        • Same as before
        • BAB: 7
    • Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
      • Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
      • Requirements:
        • Same as before
        • BAB: 9
    • Phase Arrow
      • Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
    • Hail of Arrows
      • Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
    • Arrow of Death
      • Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
      • Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
      • Arrow of Disruption - ...
      • Arrow of Banishment - ...
    These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



    I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful
    JayDubya, why would these enhancements be expensive? You're already sacrificing power as both a Ranger or a Wizard by picking the other class. The whole goal of adding Prestige Classes is to either add flavor to the game or to increase the power of multiclassing nearer to their single class counterparts. By having the enhancements be really expensive, you're basically reducing the power, because now you sacrifice not only the higher level enhancements of each class, but also the number of total enhancements you get outside of these.

  3. #3
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    I think it's a pretty fun idea and has some merit in it's ability to better utilize the enhancement system in place. But honestly, I want Turbine to suffer and code the actual classes! In the interim, yes, this is the kind of creative customization I would like to see in enhancements. And as Gennerik mentioned, these aren't overpowered, so no need to make them expensive.
    Last edited by Mourning Star; 06-21-2007 at 03:14 PM.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Solik's Avatar
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    Default

    ?

    Hasn't Turbine been implementing these for several updates now?

    Is this a request for ideas for more of them?

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solik View Post
    ?

    Hasn't Turbine been implementing these for several updates now?

    Is this a request for ideas for more of them?

    I have only seen minor kits - like the religious kits for Clerics and Paladins, and the vague Warchanter/Spellsinger concepts.

    I thought it would be interesting to attempt recreate a complete prestige class with enhancements.

    And yes, this is a solicitation for more ideas, more enhancement-based implementations. I wonder who might attempt Mystic Theurge...

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  6. #6
    Founder Elfvyra's Avatar
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    Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....
    So many idiots, so few comets....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    And by "Yes", I mean "No".

  7. #7
    Community Member Solik's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfvyra
    Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....
    Sure.

    But in PNP, you can retire a character, then roll up a brand new one at only one level lower (if that).

    Couldn't do that in DDO last I checked

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solik View Post
    Sure.

    But in PNP, you can retire a character, then roll up a brand new one at only one level lower (if that).

    Couldn't do that in DDO last I checked
    That's not a rule, that's a nice DM. You also can't make a lower level char in a different campaign and just send him a bunch of gold and equipment from your higher level character.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning Star View Post
    That's not a rule, that's a nice DM.
    No, it's something strongly suggested as standard operating procedure all over the Dungeon Master's Guide.

    It's not a "rule" insofar as D&D has no rule specifying what level characters start at. Also notice that the PHB2 includes sundry rules and suggestions on how PCs can be allowed to respec their skills, feats, classes, races, or anything.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfvyra View Post
    Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....
    This is true, however:

    • a casual perusal of the SRD seems to indicate that very few prestige classes "overlap" in that you can easily switch from one to another
    • Many, many people seem to want to be able to respec, and this allows Turbine to offer that capability for prestige class "kits"
    • When Turbine fixes a core feat or class ability, it can be devestating to the players who feel nerfed by it. By using enhancements, they can tweak the prestige class abilities, and if someone doesn't like it, they can switch away to a normal build, or change their prestige "architecture" without significant penalty
    Flexibility isn't a bad thing. You may want people to suffer for their ignorance , but I'm more charitable. And it isn't like I'm saying they can re-build themselves from the ground up.

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  11. #11
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    After more consideration and reading some other comments I must say that substituting a prestige class for a set of enhancements is a bad idea. I think that road only leads to trouble.

    Implement prestige classes: YES!
    Implement more enhancements and more creative enhancements: YES!
    Flat out sub a prestige class for enhanements: NO! Arcane Archer should be a prestige class!

    For some prestige classes that have a couple of cool abilitities that can be implemented, but others that would be impossible/ludicrous to implement (thus making the prestige class a "never going to implement"), your idea makes sense. In this case, the prestige class isn't being substituted, but some of the abilities are being imported because they are just that cool.
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  12. #12
    Community Member KristovK's Avatar
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    Bump the BAB of some of the enhancements, since they should correspond with the actualy PrC requirements for those feats, so that that Embue is a +8 BAB, Seeker is +10, Phase is +12, Hail of Arrows is +14 and Arrow of Death is +16.

    Arrow of Death is actually pretty easy, create 1 Arrow of Slaying every 20 minutes, must be used within 20 mins or it vanishes, since we can't exactly replicate the 1 day to create and 1 year before it vanishes, with only being able to have 1 Arrow of Death at any given time. Can't be given to anyone else and so on.


    Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by KristovK View Post
    Bump the BAB of some of the enhancements, since they should correspond with the actualy PrC requirements for those feats, so that that Embue is a +8 BAB, Seeker is +10, Phase is +12, Hail of Arrows is +14 and Arrow of Death is +16.
    Fair enough.

    Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.

    If you had to choose between no PrC in the next 3 years, or an enhancement based approach by the end of thise year, which would you prefer? Turbine only has so many people to do the coding, and sometimes an 80% solution in 6 months is better than a 100% solution in 3 years.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    If you had to choose between no PrC in the next 3 years, or an enhancement based approach by the end of thise year, which would you prefer? Turbine only has so many people to do the coding, and sometimes an 80% solution in 6 months is better than a 100% solution in 3 years.
    I'd go for a balanced approach. Implement the prestige classes that can be implemented in game. Implement cool abilities from classes that can't be implemented in other forms such as enhancements.
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  15. #15
    Community Member nabrendel's Avatar
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    Just to throw some more fuel on this fire, I commented this in another thread where I saw a second mention of something like this.. In the "recalling for mana thread" Elardin posted a response mentioning something called "Spellsinger" as being in the next update.. and also in the loading screen if you note, there is mention of Holy Sword and Warchanter.. Holy Sword we know is the pally spell however... warchanter and spellsinger are both prestige classes soooo one wonders are they really going this route.. prestige classes being open via enhancements.. just like basically clerical domains(faiths) are now open via enhancements..

    and if this is the case.. I need more enhancement points lol...
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  16. #16
    Founder Cinwulf's Avatar
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    Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.
    I agree but I have a sneaking suspicion they are going to go the enhancement route.

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  17. #17
    Community Member Symar-FangofLloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nabrendel View Post
    Just to throw some more fuel on this fire, I commented this in another thread where I saw a second mention of something like this.. In the "recalling for mana thread" Elardin posted a response mentioning something called "Spellsinger" as being in the next update.. and also in the loading screen if you note, there is mention of Holy Sword and Warchanter.. Holy Sword we know is the pally spell however... warchanter and spellsinger are both prestige classes soooo one wonders are they really going this route.. prestige classes being open via enhancements.. just like basically clerical domains(faiths) are now open via enhancements..

    and if this is the case.. I need more enhancement points lol...
    In that thread where the bard PrC/enhancements were discussed, I commented on how it seems that its proof that PrCs will in fact be enhancements. I was told that's not necessarily true. But think, if we can grab PrC-like abilities while maintaining full power of the base class(es), isn't that a good thing, and at least comparable to the other enhancements?
    When/if PrCs are ever put in as classes, unless it comes along with a level cap, then any existing capped/high level characters will be unable to take advantage of them. Even with a level cap increase, they won't get much of them. So having some of the abilities for purchase as enhancements is a good idea I think. When PrCs come out, they can keep the enhancements, and you either: 1)won't bother at all, 2)will go with one or the other, and have comparable powers [enhancement path has more base abilities, but less APs to spend, and vice-versa], or 3) get both to have more usage from your abilities [at a price, obviously]. I see nothing wrong with that.
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  18. #18
    Founder Shaamis's Avatar
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    JW,

    without getting into the particulars, I think this is a GREAT idea on how to introduce Prestige classes into DDO!
    I am not even beginning to look into the particulars, because I am imagining the possibilities.

    A reason to use enhancements (non-PnP concept) to get Prestige classes (PnP staple) into teh game...

    Beautiful, and it should work too!I promise to read into it fully, and see if I can contribute.

    Sincerely,
    Shaamis is REBORN! Stronger!Faster! DRUNKER THAN EVER!!! - DeathSmile Guild on Hardcore - The Drunken Monk of Stormreach on all other servers!

  19. #19
    Community Member Solik's Avatar
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    Yep, it's a great idea. It was when I came up with it 3 months before the new enhancement system appeared, 5 or so months before the first set of enhancement-based PrCs appeared (thief-acrobat, assassin, mechanic... not sure if mechanic is an official prc anywhere though). Not that I'm claiming credit as Turbine's inspiration or anything

    By the way, we're getting three more of them in July's update, all for bards.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmouse3 View Post
    JW,

    without getting into the particulars, I think this is a GREAT idea on how to introduce Prestige classes into DDO!

    Beautiful, and it should work too!I promise to read into it fully, and see if I can contribute.
    Thanks, mt! I appreciate the support.

    And to the others, who have provided constructive criticism (thank you, by the way):
    • Just because Way of the Assassin is broken/suboptimal, doesn't mean that they all will be suboptimal.
    • Yes, full Prestige Classes would be nice. But (I'll wager) adding classes to DDO is a much, much more complicated, timeconsuming and risky process than adding enhancements.
    • Too expensive - In all honesty, you shouldn't be able to get everything you want with the AP system. You should have to make some hard choices. Either be a more effective healing ranger, say, or be an arcane archer. Be as high DPS/high HP as you can be, or be a dwarven defender. etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to make you sit down and decide what you want to play.
      • After all, if you don't like it, you can switch away in 3 days...

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