Caster balance issues

[MysticTheurge]

you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend

Right, sorry, I wasn't arguing that it's harder, just that it's not "a lot easier."

[BigNastyMP]

This is something that's came up a lot in the original SP discussion. My response tends to be "Just because I can stretch my SPs out doesn't mean I should have to." High level spellcasters should be able to be casting several spells per encounter. At high levels (in D&D), spellcasters are the way to clean up trash mobs (because one, say, fireball takes them all out). At high levels, spellcasters ought to be a force to be reckoned with all by themselves, at least when going one-on-one against a creature of equal CR (assuming, of course, that creature is specifically built to be anti-caster, like a golem).

But none of those things are true in DDO.

MT, I appreciate that you are looking out for wizards and other casters, making sure that we are treated properly in this game. However...

I disagree with you when you say that Wizards are not a force to be reckoned with in DDO. Who solos the preraid on elite for chests? a wizard. Who solos the 4 golems in titan elite? a wizard. Are there harder fights out there that I am missing and not considering? I am sure other classes can win these fights as well, but so can wizards.

A wizard can take on every fight that this game has to offer, on elite, by himself, and excel. I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that a wizard is not a very powerful force in this game.

[MysticTheurge]

A wizard can take on every fight that this game has to offer, on elite, by himself, and excel. I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that a wizard is not a very powerful force in this game.

Ok, I give on that whole going toe-to-toe with an equal CR creature. I guess I'm just not skilled enough to pull it off.

(And I mean that in all honesty with no sarcasm intended, since it might seem to come off that way at first given the lack of tone in textual communication.)

[sigtrent]

I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game.

Actualy that is about how much my wizard has at level 12. It works just fine. I make sure I get good economy from my spells and I am good at melee fighting in many situations.

[BigNastyMP]

I feel ya MT, no sarcasm detected.

You can do it, you have the skills. Abundant use of scrolls and mana pots help against the real rough stuff out there. My one hope is that eventually mana pots will be more available.

[sigtrent]

And unfortunately for the assertion you're trying to make in the OP, "balance" has to consider both situations. In fact, the former is probably far more important since that's the situation that's far more likely to occur.

But maybe you're just suggesting that casters shouldn't buff people.

I'm saying you have a choice. You can buff the whole party, but you give up effectiveness in DPS or CC casting. And it often makes casters feel "less manly" because they arn't racking up kills or CCing everything that moves. Buffing makes the others more powerfull and you are still making a big contribution, it just doesn't have the same glory.

Personaly I do a mix. I don't buff "everyone" I buff those who I think will get the most use out of the buff. I use wands for some fo the buffs (and generaly if I'm the only wizard I get most of the wands from chests so I hardly ever buy them). I use damage where it matters but I don't cast damage spells at trash mobs. I use CC where it is effective and don't cast it for easy encounters. But my Wiz can Melee decently so I wade in on the easy fights and save the heavy casting for the tough encounters.

In an all caster group you can see just how poerfull an individual caster is because basicaly its like soloing wtih 6 people. A caster in a mixed group is more likey to devote some of his power at making others stronger so you can't see his power.

Its like bards. Some folks look at a bard and thing.. what does it do exactly? But with a bard in the party everyone can have as much as +7 to hit and damage. This lets fighters power attack better and rogues and clerics become viable combatants. Add haste and that bard has about doubled the power of the rest of the combatants. Casters get to make the choice to buff, or rely on their own DPS/kill power. But it is a choice you make.

The all caster run demonstrates that you don't need melee to beat a quest, spell casting gets the job done just fine. I think casters who think all they can do is buff bot, merely are trying to do two jobs at the same time and are essentialy empowering the melees to make their DPS unnessesary.

[Silverblade-T-E]

Congrats. I envy that party makeup.
Don't let SilverbladeTE see this thread...

...
you can have fun, but...the amout of folk that have left....the amount of DPs a melee gets because of crazy gear and attack bonuses that are nto in PnP rules...the amount of non-existant caster gear...the luancy of enhancements that wreck the actual rules...

hey but don't listen to me, I've only played D&D for 21 years and about every damned computer game of it...
It's good the OP had fun, good for him

But I for one am sick to death of doing the same quests again...and again...and PoP can go take a jump up a kua-toa's rear orifice!
That one quest explains all that's bad in DDO in one cheesy wrapper.

I'm having much MUCH more fun playing Neverwinter Nights2...except I miss playing/chatting with friends. Actual D&D goodness, roleplaying.
Turbine's dungeons and game engine for 1st person D&D are awesome...the rest sucks spheres.

But who cares, long as folk are get their umpteenth +1 vorpal paralyzer loot-candy-of-utter-meaninglessness....
If Turbine had any sense, rather than having a "Loot-grubbing weekened", they should have instead said "we've got ten, new, high level dungeons to enjoy on your return to DDO!"
They didn't, that ends my case.

[sigtrent]

See.. all of Silverblade's laments can't change the simple fact that wizards and sorcerers rock in DDO. He can quote rule books till he is blue in the face but the proof is in the playing and they work quite well, and can absolutely dominate a quest when played well with absolutely no melee characters in sight.

[Raithe]

I'm afraid I almost totally agree with the OP. Casters have become so much more powerful than the rest of the field it's ludicrous. The funny thing is, my Sorceror (an enchantress) is actually devoted to making other characters look good - and I get into trouble all the time because someone wants me to complete their quest for them all by myself. It's hilarious.

Yes, I can build a drow necromancer who will basically make everyone else in the party obsolete. Do you really want me to?

[MysticTheurge]

Abundant use of scrolls and mana pots help against the real rough stuff out there.

And therein lies a large part of my problem/complaint. Reliance on a near-infinite number of scrolls and a potentially large number (if you have the money and make the effort) of SP-replacing potions really only suggests that there is, in fact, a problem with spell points in the first place (as in we don't have enough).

My one hope is that eventually mana pots will be more available.

Personally, I'd like to see the removal of (almost) all consumable magic items from vendors and a subsequent rebalancing of the game. But, barring that, I'd agree with you.

I'm saying you have a choice. You can buff the whole party, but you give up effectiveness in DPS or CC casting. And it often makes casters feel "less manly" because they arn't racking up kills or CCing everything that moves. Buffing makes the others more powerfull and you are still making a big contribution, it just doesn't have the same glory.

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not a question of feeling "less manly." It's a matter of feeling like you're contributing. If the entirety (or even the vast majority) of my contribution to the group is a 1-2 minute buff session at the beginning of quest, of course I'm going to feel like I'm not contributing. I am, in fact, contributing just about as much as that computer-generated character that stands in House P and buffs everyone who asks.

The all caster run demonstrates that you don't need melee to beat a quest, spell casting gets the job done just fine.

It doesn't, however, prove, by any stretch of the imagination, that everything is just peachy-keen, as you seem to want it to.

[Silverblade-T-E]

See.. all of Silverblade's laments can't change the simple fact that wizards and sorcerers rock in DDO. He can quote rule books till he is blue in the face but the proof is in the playing and they work quite well, and can absolutely dominate a quest when played well with absolutely no melee characters in sight.

And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer....sorry bud, only thing casters are good for in DDO, are crowd control, and haste: CC is mostly useless or not needed.

"Oh wow, I have an uber lightningbolt"..so what, melee get the same damage in 4 swings or less. You have I trust, been noting the fact melee can use power attack on the lwo AC mobs in Gianthold, with paralyzers/greaterbanes etc, and improved crit with bursting perhaps and mobs die like flies.
It's like seeing 'em get devoured by army ants on speed

Been down this path before, except I was on the other side, funnily enough...in Everquest, I was a magician player...'cause I knew what the class was good at..despite nerfs and gross stupidity of the devs. Actually what wrankled most, was we gave them direct feedback, as they asked for and never bloody listened....
Problem wasn't the class, was the devs for goingout of their way to break the class's abilities (pets that agroed everything, pets that became useless, they never fixed the fire pets, near 10 years, never fixed...omg)

Found an odd thing to note: Reaver pre-raid, if you do it on Elite, the giants save against Flesh to Stone LESS than they do on Normal.
-in the quest with the minotaurs in Giant Hold, their will saves are crazy, did the devs mean this because of the "madstone crater" as reffered to, fine, but at least warn casters and tell 'em to stay home and let melee use paralyzers.
That SO wrankles, I spend my time playing a caster, getting him up to high level, and every dog and his bone can CC better than me because their paralyzers ALWAYS land and don't break after 3 seconds....cause it gets renewed as they hit many times.
That is so broken...but hey this is munchkin land: vorpals for everyone!

I just wanna play D&D, not Monty Haul

[MysticTheurge]

And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer...

Do you even really need that? Just bring along a halfling fighter with 5 casts of Heal (plus miscellaneous other healing) per rest.

[Silverblade-T-E]

MysticTheurge,
have you turned to "The Dark Side" ?

*puts on Vader mask*
"Your lack of faith...disturbs me...No haste for you!"

[BigNastyMP]

MT, use versus reliance. I use mana pots when I really need mana. I rely on scrolls to save my mana. In PnP I relied on scrolls to save my spell slots. While myself and every other wizard out there would not complain with more spell points, I feel comfortable and competent enough with the amount provided. We will have to agree to disagree over whether or not wizards can cast enough spells each quest.

Silverblade, your posts are filled with doooom, negativity, errors, and general badmouthing of casters.

Found an odd thing to note: Reaver pre-raid, if you do it on Elite, the giants save against Flesh to Stone LESS than they do on Normal.

Really? All you are doing here is letting us know that you cannot distinguish between your perception of reality and reality itself.

I have said this before and will repeat it ad naseum to each of Silverblade's rejoinders, "To you and Silverblade and the like. I am not calling you bad casters. I am disagreeing with your idea that wizards are not equal party members. We are. It is up to you to recognize that potential. It is doable."

[Kethir]

Soon fighters can feel like arcanes (except the end reward, where they will reign supreme)

Start the quest, give haste (haste makes the quest go 40% faster, since your run speed is increased).

Press R, coast thru the entire outside ring of pop pressing pk and fod. Kill everything (this by the way is easily doable solo).

Pull lever for the group to do the marut and go shrine. no real need for buffs, except deathward and haste, maybe sonic resist. The cleric has plenty of mana for this.

Fod every room after the marut, fod or firewall, then go to the boss and let everyone beat up the boss.

No need for buffs, except end fight, need cold and fire resist.

Buffs are a waste of mana. Why resist fire, cold acid the fighters, when they won't be swinging at anything?

The fighters role in pop is to block the final guy frmo moving around too much. Its nice to have the roles finally reversed.

[Uska]

I am convinced that a party of all casters is the ultimate way to go.

To fine tune that, make sure they are all self healing (ie. wf wiz and sorcs) and that at least one or two can cast raise dead or use the scrolls.

There was a thread a while ago about getting an all wiz/sorc party together, and eventually decided to go with a wf only setup. Unfortunately it seemed to fall through.

here's the link to that thread.

I have characters on Ghallanda (Ghoste, Raythe, Draugr) and Argo (Ghoste). If anyone's ever feeling up to some all caster runs, give me a shout.

Yeah was sorry to see that fall through I think several of us had some rl issues interfer at first I still have the high wis caster I made for that and he is still lvl 2 sorcerer I think but at work and cant check for sure

[Silverblade-T-E]

BigNastyMP,
unfortunatley for you, others noticed the same thing (giants resist less on elite vs stone to flesh).
Considering the screwups that occur in games, it's not impossible to suggest that the devs got some saves wrong way round or the like while creating that dungeon...FYI I used to find bugs, flaws and exploitable things in EQ and did feedback on that (was a beta tester who worked on the Magician class as that was my fave)

And you're damned right I call out "DOOOOM!" because soon, this game is gonna be a ghost town.
The ratio of "fanbois" to "everyone else" on these forums has increased, because more of the rest of the players have "left the game". hence all the request for server mergers etc...if the game was "great" and "healthy", that would not occur.
It is having problems because of fanbois and loot grubbers supporting bad dev decisions.

As I've repeatedly said: the dungeons are good, way the game works is great, but, the enhancements (player and items), Monty Haul, crazy melee attack bonus, has broken the game (D&D) and lead to over powered mobs and loot grubbing as the prime focus.

From experience, buffing melee is far more effective than anything else I can do, so *** should I bother playing, just get a buff bot or a House J NPC who can cast Blur/haste for 30 minutes, hm?
Buff = no resist. Buff = increase melee output either directly, or indirectly by keeping them alive.
I dont' have a problem with buffing, it's part of what a wizard can do, but when you actually look at how DDO works in play...it's grotesque.
A Maximized Cone of Cold is nowhere near as effective as a 2+ minute haste, unless the party is swamped and you get a crit off...and the Max cone of cold costs a hell of a lot more SP than extended haste.

There's not enough Spell Points for the amount of encounters in missions, because the encounters are ALL at the max CR which doesn't occur in PnP, thus, casters burn spells faster than normal D&D.

As said, glad the OP had fun
But just keep watching server populations drop and ask yourself WHY, and if you are making things any better by saying thngs are "ok".

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Right, sorry, I wasn't arguing that it's harder, just that it's not "a lot easier."

Nice spin, but in the WORST CASE you are in the same boat as a cleric as far as metamagic goes. Most of the time wizzes are better off, thats my point. And after the next cap raise, wizzes, in all cases, will be better off and more able to take MT and IMT.

[Aspenor]

While I'd love to have more mana and whatnot, I'm a bit befuddled how casters aren't powerful.

Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across doesn't mean we don't have amazing power.

Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

While I'd love to have more mana and whatnot, I'm a bit befuddled how casters aren't powerful.

Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across doesn't mean we don't have amazing power.

Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.

Hummmm....Im trying to figure out how. Maybe displacement, Sskin wands and 100% fort with elemental 30 resists, that would take care of the archers i think. Since they respawn killing them isnt an option.

then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.