Caster balance issues

[Mad_Bombardier]

The claim was 1800 peak damage from a fireball, and is perfectly reasonable.

Nope, they changed the calculations in 3.3/Mod4. Metamagics are now additive. Static boost percentages have always been additive.
The best result is 60 (max base) * 1.9 (enhance + potency) * 2.5 (max + empower) * 2.75 (max crit) * 2 (vulnerable) = 1567.

However, my example used Fireball, but my point was that due to the fact that mobs are superbuffed to compensate for insane melee boosts, a 240 damage spell didn't kill a mob in a level 4(+2) quest. The reason we instakill everything is because that's the only viable option versus such high HP mobs. What caster in his right mind is going to risk ****ing off a bunch of mobs with a lot of damage but not kill anything? Unless I'm goofing off in a low level quest, not me!

[MysticTheurge]

Metamagics are now additive.

I knew they had fixed the costs, so I was guessing they fixed the effects as well, but I don't have the feats to check.

[Tyrande]

And requires you to have Superior Combustion VI instead of III.

Delay Blast Fireball is a level 7 spell, isn't it? That means it requires Superior Combustion VII instead of III.

[MysticTheurge]

Delay Blast Fireball is a level 7 spell, isn't it? That means it requires Superior Combustion VII instead of III.

Sorry, you're right. Fixed.

[Harbinder]

What caster in his right mind is going to risk ****ing off a bunch of mobs with a lot of damage but not kill anything? Unless I'm goofing off in a low level quest, not me!

One that solos alot, using wands or fireball 10th and solid fog clickies maybe?

Question: Whats the *1.9 enhance/potency calculated from? + 40% enhancement, 50% potency stacks to make it +90% base damage right?

1567 damage from a full-powered fireball = 26(?) AP spent (elements IV, crit IV)...a steep price to pay. I'll take my 9% crit chance for 1.75 damage over this.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I see a lot of people quoting really high damage numbers that are possible from a fireball. That absolutely does not prove that casters are balanced -- the vast majority of times the stars will not align just right for you to do that. Most monsters in the game are not fire-vulnerable, outright halving your possible damage. The vast majority of your fireballs will also not be crits, further cutting damage -- and at that point, all you're really doing is ****ing off the monsters so that they want to bum rush you and quickly beat you into paste. And, not only that, but you've just blown a huge chunk of SP maximizing and empowering the spell, and you're likely to die for it!

My elven wizard has a base 12 Con, and even with Con items and False Life I tend to die real quick when some big ogre gets into melee with me. I really feel sorry for those poor elven/drow wizards/sorcerers who didn't plan ahead and left their Con at 6...

Aside from Wall of Fire and certain very unique situations, throwing damage as a caster is not worth it. You may be able to kill things, yes -- but you'll spend more spells points to do it than simply casting Finger of Death, most likely. It gets even worse when you talk about maximizing and empowering your spells. When fighters can throw out the same amount of damage all day long, and yours is limited...it doesn't work.

The biggest mistake made when casters got "balanced" was that they used PnP as a baseline. You know what? In PnP, a wizard is going to go through FAR fewer encounters per rest. A high level wizard really has to TRY to run out of spells in a day, and when they do, that wand of fireball (5th) they have still deals decent backup damage instead of just being a piddly annoyance to the monsters. They probably also have at least one magical staff with an array of useful spells, too.

[Solik]

No percentages are percentages (at least when you're comparing them to identical kinds of number like damage output). A 50% increase is less than an 80% increase over time.

What? We're not talking compound interest here...

So as long as the melee character isn't swinging 5 or more times in the interval between castings of your spells then you're all good.

Let me know when you can afford to cast spells that often.

Why don't we factor in everything else -- like miss chance vs. 1/2 damage on saves, for instance? And firewall, of course, which you acknowledge below this comment but leave off here. Every DPS caster should be a firewall sorcerer. Yes, I know it sucks that there aren't so many options, but well, every DPS fighter should have the SoS, so meh.

I've never actually argued that the caster items in the game are weak. They are however, extremely rare.

??

If you don't think they're weak, why are you even arguing with me? I've never made comments about the rarity or lack thereof, and I didn't start talking about other caster balance issues until you guys pulled me into it.

Percentages are your nemesis here too. If you crit on 10% of your spells and a fighter crits on 10% of his attacks, and if you both have the same multiplier (let's say x2) then you're both going to get similar increases over time assuming similar damage output. If he's doing, say, 1d8+10 damage per hit and hitting 5 times to your 1 spell that does 14d6 then your crit benefit is going to be about equal. But again, he's probably swinging faster than that.

Oh, and you had to take a bunch of enhancements to get a 10% crit at x2, he just gets it for carrying a longsword.

Just some assorted counterpoints to ponder:

* Firewall again breaks this
* It's like this in PNP too; damage casters outshine only debuff casters, rarely even matching the power of melee until you factor in utility spells that they're probably using even though they're built for damage
* The 14d6 spell hits multiple targets and has save for half instead of miss for none

And no spellcaster can sustain metamagic'ed Walls of Fire for long.

Oh I doubt that. A DPS sorcerer built for it (read: does not hand out buffs) should have no problems.

[Gimpster]

The biggest mistake made when casters got "balanced" was that they used PnP as a baseline.

Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

[Seneca_Windforge]

Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

I am referring to numbers of spell points, not PnP fireball versus PnP Finger of Death. Wizards can afford to cast spells left and right in PnP once they get to higher levels; you can't do that nearly as much in DDO because DDO does not use the 4 encounters per rest measuring stick that PnP uses -- DDO casters must go through many more encounters per rest than their PnP counterparts. Even when PnP arcane casters do run out of spells, their wands and staves actually do enough damage to matter.

In Gianthold, a wand of fireball or lightning bolt is pretty useless; to a 14th level PnP wizard/sorcerer who is out of spells, the damage might not be mind-blowing, but it is enough to be worth using.

By the way, i've never heard that it is "widely acknowledged" that damage dealing spells are less powerful in PnP than other like-level spells, and i've been playing PnP for seven years. There are times when damage dealing spells are your best option, just like there are times when an Entangle, Ray of Enfeeblement, Moon Bolt, Finger of Death, or Teleport is your best option. It just depends on your situation, how many monsters you are fighting, what weaknesses those monsters have, etc.

[MysticTheurge]

Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

But let's be honest here Gimpster, fireball may be weaker than FoD in D&D, but it's not as weak as it is in DDO.

Fireball vs. FoD when something has 200 HPs? Yeah, kind of weak.

Fireball vs. FoD when something has 2000 HPs? Absolutely pointless.

[jkm]

its only 1.5 for vulnerable creatures. i am as fire spec'd as you can possibly get and my high water mark on a firewall is 625. why do i know that? cause i go back and look at the combat logs. my high water mark on cone of cold is 1410 on velah. that is fully spec'd superior ice lore/superior potency 6 gear. that hit took out about 15% of her hit points on normal.

[Ghoste]

You've inspired me.

[Gimpster]

its only 1.5 for vulnerable creatures.

That's how D&D works, not DDO. In DDO, vulnerable monsters take double damage. Try hitting an ice mephit with a Flaming sword an you'll see damage up to +12 fire.

[Drfirewater79]

I think there are alot of issues with messing with the way casters are set up

Casters are suppost to do more damage then other classes THAT IS WHAT THEY GIVE UP FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO DO WEAPON DAMAGE

if a caster with a cone of cold against a fire giant can do max empowered about 1200-1800 damage yeah sure that totally rocks but they get alot less then that on average hits against spell resistances sometimes a wizards fire wall max and empowered does only 5-10 in outer wall and 30 inner wall other times it does 30 outer and 300 inner and a sorc can maybe get 600 a hit if you think about it a fighter using top end weapons like lets say +5 shocking burst greatsword of cloud burst i see max damage at anywhere from 100-200 points of damage forget about it i am a pali using holy smite ability i could do up to 200-400 points of damage with onehit max rolls crit success and i have 5 chances to hit that damage per combo (roughly the same time it takes a caster to recast same spell again unless the are a sorc which the sorc gives up the ability to change spells at will

so lets say i dont crit and get low rolls guess what i bet i still do more damage then a low roll unmax'd unempowered caster spell

casters have to focus to become super powerfull

casters who dont take the feats required to be powerfull are effected by the changes drastically

so instead of crying that the caster stole your kill count you should maybe think about how often it is that a fighter gets the kill count all to himself cause i am betting that the missions where there are almost no shrines and where casters set CC instead of damaging spells go much different then the one or two times when a caster putting his best spell forward leads to some powerfull outcomes

man if you are scared of casters now just wait for lvl 9 spells you have not seen damage like fist of god 20d20 damage smashing an area repeatedly over time max'ed and empowered

muah ha ha ha ha ha ha

its about time players stuck together instead of complaining about how someon else managed to make better or more powerful character then you did instead just ask the guy how he did it and make your own