Caster balance issues

[Aspenor]

Hummmm....Im trying to figure out how. Maybe displacement, Sskin wands and 100% fort with elemental 30 resists, that would take care of the archers i think. Since they respawn killing them isnt an option.

then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.

Firewall is your bestest friend.

[Elfvyra]

Firewall is your bestest friend.

Not when you're a Mage annoying Red Named Archers and trying to dodge Moving Blade Barriers at the same time...

[Aspenor]

Not when you're a Mage annoying Red Named Archers and trying to dodge Moving Blade Barriers at the same time...

*spits* who needs to bother with the archers? Blade barriers?? *yawn* Why on earth would I stand on top of the platform while the blades are out?

[samagee]

Firewall is your bestest friend.

Flaming sphere works better in some instances, because it can chase the enemy around.

[Aspenor]

Flaming sphere works better in some instances, because it can chase the enemy around.

I dont plan on the Queen moving very far from one spot.

[sigtrent]

And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer....sorry bud, only thing casters are good for in DDO, are crowd control, and haste: CC is mostly useless or not needed.

No classes are "needed", none are "required". That is good. That is the whole point! You can have a party of all casters, all melee all clerics, all rougues, all paladins, whatever you like. Each faces the challegne in a somewhat different way and each is effective.

For some bizare reason you seem to feel that no one should be any good except you, or somehow you should be required for any quest to be succesfully completed. Nonsense!

Casters are awsome. Combat characters are also awesome. Its equal opportunity ass kicking. Of course a melee can do as much damage as a caster, and yes, a caster can do as much damage as a melee... stunner!

In D&D everyone can do good damage, they just do it in different ways and to different degrees of success agaisnt different enemies.

You resent a melee's DPS, you resent a melee's CC abbilities, you seem to resent everything but their hit points! Nothing stops yoru caster from picking up a paralyzer if you want to use one. You have a sour grapes mentatlity about nearly everything that doesn't cater to your whims.

Do you think we beat the qust using haste and CC? Lol not even close! Hardly used haste at all in fact. We only used CC if you count FOD as CC. Basicaly you just have no clue how to effectively play a caster if you think all we can do is CC and haste. I was dropping firewalls doing 250 pts a tick, to multiple enemies, mulitple times. I can throw a scorching ray for around 400pts. More consistant and faster than all but the most hyper specilized and well equipped fighters. FOD is far more reliable than a vorpal ever could be.

[Gimpster]

*spits* who needs to bother with the archers? Blade barriers?? *yawn* Why on earth would I stand on top of the platform while the blades are out?

Maybe because you're not an exploiter.

[Gimpster]

then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.

Those spells will eventually do exactly zero damage to Queen Laliat. In the raid, she buffs herself with Mantle of Invulnerability, providing immunity to all spells of level 4 and under. That includes MM, Scorching Ray, and Wall of Fire. And a Marilith, she also has racial lightning immunity.

Unless you think you can disepl Mantle of Invulnerability (fat chance of beating the caster level check), you'd need to rely on such spells as Disintegrate and Delayed Blast Fireball. All the high-level damaging spells allow a saving throw, and her saves are pretty good.

[Gimpster]

Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.

If you can't solo Laliat's Court, you certainly can't solo the raid. It's difficult but plausible for a sorc 14 to solo the preraid, simply using a lot of Scorching Rays to kill queen laliat.

In the raid, however, you'd have a tough time even reaching the queen, as it's fairly difficult to solo 9 efreets who are immune to fire and every CC. It can be done, and then assuming you can survive the archers and the 3 more efreet, you'd eventually find yourself dueling a marilith who's immune to all spells of level 4 and below.

[Riggs]

People who say casters rule say 'hey I can Fod/Flesh to stone /PK everything and I rock.

People who say casters are gimped/need more mana argue that a damaging spell does no where near the damage it should compared to the inflated hit points on monsters, and the inflated damage output melees got.

Both are true statements.

The point is that in pnp D&D, casters RULED because a) They could Fod/PK stuff, AND kill things with damage, and have that damage matter.

A 10d6 fireball is good damage on a level 10 monster with 60 hit points. It might not kill it, but you can take a room of monsters down to half with one spell. A DDO fireball ....will not take a room full of monsters down to half.

In pnp a caster was limited to so many spells per day, but only had a few encounters per day essentially. A DDO caster gets a lot more encounters, and can spend mana and get more spells essentially.

But not one person saying casters rule in DDO can make a valid case that; If a caster choses to do DAMAGE over cc or save or die spells, they will be very effective. People say a caster can solo the Tor...sure...try doing it with Cone of Cold. See how fast you run out of mana and how few monsters you have killed.

Converting D&D to DDO melee roughly gained 150% damage output or more, based on more attacks, higher strength from enhancements, and overall better items available at the level, and of course the BAB progression reversal. (More to hit means more hits, means more damage)

Casters, IF they spend the enhancements for a particular element, gained about 40% max damage output. If you get a potency item you can boost that another 40-50% to a total of 80-90% increase. The thing was damage spells in D&D were not quite as good as melee, but casters had many other options too.

In DDO, monsters got inflated hitpoints and saves. So the gap not only between the boost melee got is there, but monsters got a boost, so realisticly, caster damage output is at least half of what it should be.
Not to mention that there are tons of weapon effects that can make melee a lot more powerful, but almost nothing for casters that is similar. (Hey wanna trade this effecy 6 club for your Vorpal? They are both level 10!)

Add in all the situation spells that wizards do NOT get, while I undertand some things are much harder to add than others to a game - NOT having fly/spiderclimb, protection from arrows, solid fog that stops arrows...many other protection spells or trasmutation spells - its a long list.

Bottom line, casters are not what they should be in DDO. People ignore this because 'hey I can spam Fod on monsters that are not immune to it and kill stuff'...sure! Still doesnt address the other major balance issues still sitting out there.

[Solik]

I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

[Riggs]

And you get how many extra metamagic feats do you get? Oh thats right 3 at last count, with another to come at lvl 15. Seems like you can afford mental and imp mental. So even IF you NEED 4, alot of people, myself included, dont think heighten is necessary, you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend. And a better one than a cleric that needs both extend and empower.

No excuses for not taking it really, unless SP isnt a major need of your wiz build... i guess.

Perhaps Heighten is not 'necessary'. However a heightened web can stop giants, giant undead, minotaurs, trolls....in their tracks. A non-heightened web will not. Necessary? No, very useful at times? yes.

[jkm]

I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

what is the damage potential of a +5 icy burst greataxe vs a normal one? the numbers approach an 80% increase per swing. now consider that you are able to swing it much much faster than a) you could in pnp and b) a caster can spells (in the time it takes my sorc to cooldown off of a fireball you have gotten off 6+ swings). therein lies the problem -> a raged, hasted level 14 barbarian is going to do magnitudes more damage in the midst of 10 mobs in 4 seconds (the time it takes to cast 2 fireballs) than a 14th level caster who tosses in 2 fireballs.

yes caster get more spell points, yes they get damage enhancers. but the speed at which they can unleash damage was slowed down in favor of speeding up the instakill spells. whereas for melees its just the opposite. my hasted fighter can get an enhancement that allows her to increase her attack speed by 40% that is stackable with haste. the numbers run together they are going up so fast.

do you see an enhancement to decrease spell cooldowns?

do you see an enhancment to penetrate the outrageous fire/cold DRs that some mobs have?

how about an enhancement for lingering spell?

how about an enhancement that makes spells tougher to dispel?

[Gimpster]

Perhaps Heighten is not 'necessary'. However a heightened web can stop giants, giant undead, minotaurs, trolls....in their tracks. A non-heightened web will not.

Actually, you might be surprised by how completely a non-heightened Web can stop the giant skeletons in something like Madstone Crater elite.

[sigtrent]

The point is that in pnp D&D, casters RULED because a) They could Fod/PK stuff, AND kill things with damage, and have that damage matter.

A 10d6 fireball is good damage on a level 10 monster with 60 hit points. It might not kill it, but you can take a room of monsters down to half with one spell. A DDO fireball ....will not take a room full of monsters down to half.

Actualy in D&D 3.0/3.5 a 10d6 fireball is very unlikely to kill any CR 10 monster. At its very best it might do half its HP in damage.

If you don't damage spec in DDO you can't do good damage. Same is true for a melee as well. If you don't use spells you have enhancments and items for you are more or less wasting your mana. My wizard 11 has Fire/Cold 3, 3 lines of the crit chance and no lines of the crit multiplier. Using a superior fire lor and greater potency 4 item when casting for damage. With maximize on. I can do firewalls for 200+ pts per tick. Scorching ray for 400+ damage. Fireballs that do 300+. I don't much like cone of cold.. too hard to target much of the time but even that can post pretty solid damge numbers. I've been in many fights watching some melee trying to take down some regenerating critter only to have it heal as fast as it is bieng damaged. I step in with scorching ray and the fights in two or three casts.

I'm noticing everyone complaining about damage mentions cone of cold. It stinks. Mostly because it is difficult to target and has a short range. I only pull it out when I've got no other damage option (aka lots of fire immunity). And I always think "can't wait to get freezing sphere instead".

You can get great numbers with lightning spells too, but you need to wait to higher levels to make them work as well, and firewall is just so good its hard to not go for fire/cold specilization. Of all my wizards spells, firewall is #1. I use it more than anything else and it's a damage spell.

Plenty of monsters in D&D are difficult to kill with damage spells. If anything DDO swings the other way giving some creatures specific immunity to everything but damage spells.

[Mhykke]

Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across......

Well, maybe if you asked nicely........

[Silverblade-T-E]

Sigtrent,

a CR10 *ENCOUNTER* is probably made of several CR 5-8 or so mobs...you sir, forget that.

I'll give an example:
the lvl 10 party comes up against the the guards of an orc boss, for simplicity sake, lest say, five level 5 orcs barbarians, that's a Cr10 encounter. go check yer DMG, page 49.

The party's wiz casts Fireball, 10d6, average damage 35 hp. His save DC, assuming this is PNP, so 20 Int (16 base, 2 from 4th and 8th raises, headband of Intelelct +2) is DC 18.

The orcs have 16 Con, DM says the regular orcs have average hps, the boss has higher. Average hp orc barbarian lvl 5 with 16 Con is
(6.5 x 5) + 15 = 32+15 (6.5 because DICE don't have 0, average is thus 6.5 on a d12)

So the AVERAGE orc in this CR10 encounter is 47hp.
Now, the DM is perfectly entitled to say, the orcs have higher than average hps, it would make sense in fact, but that would push the CR up higher.
Anway, one Fireball would rip the hell out of that cr10 encounter.
The orcs would have, lets say a +2 Ref save (+1 base, and say +1 from 13 Dex)

So, you are making the common mistake of a DDO player, who's forgetting PNP.
*an encounter CR, doesn't have to mean each mob is that CR!*

The average Fire giant, a CRr10 SINGLE mob has 141 hp..if the wizard uses Cone of Cold, he'd do 15d6 damage (10d6 + 50% for Fire subtype), average 52 hp damage. So 1/3rd in one hit.

[Solik]

what is the damage potential of a +5 icy burst greataxe vs a normal one?

Irrelevant. What's an 80% increase on 1d12 compared to a 50% increase on a 14d6?

but the speed at which they can unleash damage was slowed down in favor of speeding up the instakill spells. whereas for melees its just the opposite.

Even assuming this is correct (and it's not; try spamming a variety of damage spells as a sorcerer after the last update), you'll have to explain how this is an imbalance.

Casters rule pen and paper, and they almost never do so using direct damage spells.

do you see an enhancement to decrease spell cooldowns?

I doubt you cast spells fast enough for this to matter, at least with the direct damage spells. My sorcerer casts spells faster with Quicken activated, which implies that even as a sorcerer she's not casting as fast as the cooldowns wear off (although with Quicken, she casts slightly faster than the cooldowns).

do you see an enhancment to penetrate the outrageous fire/cold DRs that some mobs have?

Damage-boosting enhancements are the same as DR-penetrating enhancements. Actually, they're better, because they give a bonus to creatures without DR, too. Spell crit boosters are better, too.

[sigtrent]

the lvl 10 party comes up against the the guards of an orc boss, for simplicity sake, lest say, five level 5 orcs barbarians, that's a Cr10 encounter. go check yer DMG, page 49.

The party's wiz casts Fireball, 10d6, average damage 35 hp. His save DC, assuming this is PNP, so 20 Int (16 base, 2 from 4th and 8th raises, headband of Intelelct +2) is DC 18..

Ok, so your orcs have 47HP each..(Keep in mind the orcs will likely rage adding anogher 10hp to their totals.) 10d6 fireball is an average 30 before saves. The orcs have a 20% chance to save for half so average damage is 27. About half thier HP pre rage. you are also giving these orcs no usefull gear that a 5th level barbarian might typicaly have. PC class based CR should include appropriate equipment.

But if you have played a lot of 3.5 (and indeed I have). You would probably be aware that the rules for CR calculations are pretty poor when it comes to large groups of low HD creatures. (although those orcs are likely an exception becausee of thier very high offense potential) Also, typicaly I tend to throw encounters above the characters level for two reasons... 1. I like each fight to be exciting and feel dangerous as where an even challenge is generaly not all that challenging, just resource draining. and 2. Generaly I play with 6 party members and an NPC or two which is a good deal beefier than the stock 4 party members CR is based on, much like what happens in DDO.

So, you are making the common mistake of a DDO player, who's forgetting PNP.
*an encounter CR, doesn't have to mean each mob is that CR!*

My last game I threw 20 CR 5 creatures (with a slight downgrade to their abbilities so I called them CR 4) at a party of nearly exausted level 6 characters. They lost some horses and the rogue almost died, but the other party members were never in much danger. And apart from the two fighters none of the characters were especialy min/maxed. Most of the casters were about drained of spells at the time. CR values in 3.5 are pretty useless is what I'm saying.

The average Fire giant, a CRr10 SINGLE mob has 141 hp..if the wizard uses Cone of Cold, he'd do 15d6 damage (10d6 + 50% for Fire subtype), average 52 hp damage. So 1/3rd in one hit.

Ohhh 1/3 his HP, scary, if he fails his save (fairly likey). And then he would pretty much pulp Mr. wizard. I can do the same thing to fire giants in DDO. Done it in giant caves quite a few times.

[Tyrande]

I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

Caster items are underpowered compared to melee items because:

1) mana (SP) is a managed (limited) resource while you can swing your uber weapons however long you want and never got tired from swinging. You can swing your weapons all day and get that roll to hit 20. Casters cannot spam their spells to beat monsters DC until they run out of spell points because that would be un-wise mana SP management.

2) Efficacy meaning clickies, only 3 casters per rest period, and they last only 30 seconds per cast, and hence less effective.

3) The increase save or die DC increase by 1 is comparatively useless because what is 1 DC compared to a DC 20 to 30 save? Yes, it is less than 5% and it uses mana. For a vorpal, rolling a 20 for d20 is 5%. With better crit range, you can hit much higher percentage.