Caster balance issues

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

For wizards spell point frugality is certainly still an issue. My wiz is 13. With his magi item he has 1010 sp fully rested. Generally once I am done buffing (and I don't even generally carry blur or displacement) I'm in the mid to upper 700s.

Even then, 700 shouldn't be a bad amount, but it can get chewed up pretty damned fast. I try to make economic use of any spell over level 3, and use a great deal of things Hypno, Ray of Exhaustion, Touch of Idiocy, Slow, Otto's dance. (I'm a crowd control/debuff junky.) Heck, sometimes I'm just wand whipping lightning bolts, etc, to not just be standing there like an idiot. However, throw in one good caster-centric encounter (need FoD, PK, repeated WoF, etc) and that SP total plummets really freaking quick. Given that most of the quests I see these days seem to be 1 shrine that needs to be saved for as close to the end boss as possible... frugality is definitely the word of the day.

Part of it is, I believe, that I'm willing to buff. Every dungeon seems to require at least two (fire and acid) resists on every player. Generally more. Then Greater Hero on the tanks (and man does that eat SP) and the frequent hastes... it really takes a toll. I *should* put more of that onus on the melees in terms of them carrying resistance cloaks, shields, etc.

Just an opinion.

you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13. My cleric has 1158 at lvl 13, maybe you need to take a look at how your APS are spread out and/or how you allocated your stats.

To MT: when a group of all squishies takes 25 min or less todo pop, i think most of the issues with caster balancing has been remidied.

[MysticTheurge]

you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13.

Wizards and clerics have identical base SP progressions now.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Wizards and clerics have identical base SP progressions now.

That doesnt change the fact that he has over 100 less sp than my cleric does, does it? Much more than what can account for the extra 30 mana my cleric has from dwarven faith. I also only have a 28 wis. Most wizards have a 30-32 int.

[Aspenor]

This is something that's came up a lot in the original SP discussion. My response tends to be "Just because I can stretch my SPs out doesn't mean I should have to." High level spellcasters should be able to be casting several spells per encounter. At high levels (in D&D), spellcasters are the way to clean up trash mobs (because one, say, fireball takes them all out). At high levels, spellcasters ought to be a force to be reckoned with all by themselves, at least when going one-on-one against a creature of equal CR (assuming, of course, that creature is specifically built to be anti-caster, like a golem).

But none of those things are true in DDO.

I dunno, MT. I'd say the wizking on normal is a level-appropriate quest for a wizard to be able to solo at level 14. Is the wizking's CR higher or lower than my necromancer's at level 14? I certainly tore him apart.

[MysticTheurge]

That doesnt change the fact that he has over 100 less sp than my cleric does, does it? Much more than what can account for the extra 30 mana my cleric has from dwarven faith. I also only have a 28 wis. Most wizards have a 30-32 int.

It probably has to do with APs (clerics have fewer enhancement "requirements" to be effective and can more readily spend the APs on Energy of the Zealot) and items. But the suggestion that his "WIZARD" having fewer SPs than your "CLERIC" is "wrong" implies that, for some reason, wizards have more SPs in general than clerics do. Which isn't true.

[Vi'Aed]

you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13. My cleric has 1158 at lvl 13, maybe you need to take a look at how your APS are spread out and/or how you allocated your stats.

To MT: when a group of all squishies takes 25 min or less todo pop, i think most of the issues with caster balancing has been remidied.

Possibly. Without having the game open in front of me, I have a 30 or 31 int, but I couldn't tell you what I've applied for SP related enhancements. Last I recall looking at it, there were certainly competitions going between various enhancements fro my attention and I definitely didn't have everything I wanted maxed.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

It probably has to do with APs (clerics have fewer enhancement "requirements" to be effective and can more readily spend the APs on Energy of the Zealot) and items. But the suggestion that his "WIZARD" has fewer SPs than your "CLERIC" implies that, for some reason, wizards have more SPs in general than clerics do. Which isn't true.

Wizards certainly can have more sp than a cleric, as they can get a higher int.

Drow. I dont know about your server, but the vast majority of wizzes on mabar are drow.

I DO have the highest lvl of zealot and the 2nd lvl of faith, assuming the wiz has energy 3 thats still only what, 60 more mana? Wizards as a general rule, do end up with more SP than clerics, especially since DV isnt selfable.

In order for him to have as few sp as he does he would have to have a 24 or so int. We all know this is sub optimal for a wiz. So unless he neglected to inform us of a multiclass lvl hes still well below what he should be at sp wise.

EDIT: after reading your comment above, it makes no sense you should have such low mana with a 30 int. Unless you took 0 of the sp enhancements. Getting 80? 90? mana for 6aps is a good deal in my book.

[samagee]

For wizards spell point frugality is certainly still an issue. My wiz is 13. With his magi item he has 1010 sp fully rested. Generally once I am done buffing (and I don't even generally carry blur or displacement) I'm in the mid to upper 700s.

Even then, 700 shouldn't be a bad amount, but it can get chewed up pretty damned fast. I try to make economic use of any spell over level 3, and use a great deal of things Hypno, Ray of Exhaustion, Touch of Idiocy, Slow, Otto's dance. (I'm a crowd control/debuff junky.) Heck, sometimes I'm just wand whipping lightning bolts, etc, to not just be standing there like an idiot. However, throw in one good caster-centric encounter (need FoD, PK, repeated WoF, etc) and that SP total plummets really freaking quick. Given that most of the quests I see these days seem to be 1 shrine that needs to be saved for as close to the end boss as possible... frugality is definitely the word of the day.

Part of it is, I believe, that I'm willing to buff. Every dungeon seems to require at least two (fire and acid) resists on every player. Generally more. Then Greater Hero on the tanks (and man does that eat SP) and the frequent hastes... it really takes a toll. I *should* put more of that onus on the melees in terms of them carrying resistance cloaks, shields, etc.

Just an opinion.

I generally go light on the buffs. I have blur that I usually hand out. I also have energy protection that I hand out if they want it. Most only want resist though. I don't have that yet, as I am lvl 12 sorc and have picked more important spells. I have a mix between crowd control and straight damage with fire and ice. The party usually likes for me to be able to nuke. I have 1478 mana with my +2 heavy mace of the magi in hand. I do not own and para, destruction, or displacement weapons yet. I do have a long sword of weakening, and now a club of the one that takes dex away and backstabing. Not to mention nice bows for range things.

[MysticTheurge]

EDIT: after reading your comment above, it makes no sense you should have such low mana with a 30 int. Unless you took 0 of the sp enhancements. Getting 80? 90? mana for 6aps is a good deal in my book.

Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

Edit -- And that, I think, is part of my problem when people announce that casters are fine. I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game. Which means, essentially, casters have no choice about it, they have to get more SPs, through feats, enhancements or items.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

I have a 100 sp item 28 stat and energy 4 faith 2. I have over 1150 sp. At lvl 13. Something is wrong with the calculations somewhere.

If 830 is base for 30 stat as you say then i sould only have:

830 + 100 + 110 + 30 = 1070

thats with a 30 wis, that i dont have.....i know i have 1158 sp, MT.

Somethings off.


Edit: AHHHH Mental and imp mental, thats the difference. Call me Columbo!!!!!! With the extra feats that Wizzes get mental and imp mental should be a given id think. Heck i found room for them in my cleric build!

[Aspenor]

Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

Edit -- And that, I think, is part of my problem when people announce that casters are fine. I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game. Which means, essentially, casters have no choice about it, they have to get more SPs, through feats, enhancements or items.

very, very true.

Turbine has made the minimum required sp into the highest attainable SP.

If you dont spec for massive amounts of SP and invest items in it, your character WILL suffer.

[jkm]

here is my question

fighters get toughness enhancements to add more hit points, yet spell casters don't get mental toughness enhancements that do the same.

and don't even get me started on that stupid belt that gives 2 levels of a fighter enhancement for free.

[FlyinS]

very, very true.

Turbine has made the minimum required sp into the highest attainable SP.

If you dont spec for massive amounts of SP and invest items in it, your character WILL suffer.

Exactly true, and it's the perfectly logical point some are apparently utterly ignoring.

[yawgmoth]

I would just like to say that since these changes, my warforged sorcerer is stronger than ever. I will not buff anyone other than myself, so my FoD mana usually lasts to the shrine, if not longer. When people ask me for buffs, I just buff myself and start killing. If they need the resists and haste so **** bad, they can carry their own resist and other buff clickies. I don't join parties to play buffbot, I join them to make everyone else feel useless while I FoD 90% of the dungeon.

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

I would just like to say that since these changes, my warforged sorcerer is stronger than ever. I will not buff anyone other than myself, so my FoD mana usually lasts to the shrine, if not longer. When people ask me for buffs, I just buff myself and start killing. If they need the resists and haste so **** bad, they can carry their own resist and other buff clickies. I don't join parties to play buffbot, I join them to make everyone else feel useless while I FoD 90% of the dungeon.

OHOHOHOHOH i want to play with YOU!!!!! Your my heeeerrrrooo!!!!

[peavey]

It would be very easy to do PoP with 5 casters, only one person to buff, as any caster worth a dang has anything THEY need at their disposal (yes that was my crack at sorcs) so my lvl 14.1 wizzy has like 1227 sp, if I have to buff a party (something I don't do unless asked) then I waste more than a third of my mana. As it is that would leave me with a little over 800 mana. Now while in PvP, something I like to do a lot helps with the reaction time a bit, I can buff myself with ALL resists and protects all extended, GH, false life, blur, stoneskin, and shield I still have plenty of mana without taking a drink to kill 5 or 6 fully buffed maxed out toons with way overkill...all the meta feats active.
So yeah ALMOST any party of all casters and one cleric can do most quests but is that the norm? No. Why? Because there have been many who have put their casters on the shelf due to, on any other occasion than the loot weekends, garbage loot.
And most of the time it is easier with a well rounded group.
So run with all casters whenever you can I wish I could would be a lot of fun.

Oh yeah and to the poster about a wizard having less sp than a cleric, you full heal for what like 500 or so on a crit, my fireball has seen RED numbers of over 800 fully meta'd and with the items needed, so having a little less mana can be ok, after all ya gotta give up something to get what you want right?

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Oh yeah and to the poster about a wizard having less sp than a cleric, you full heal for what like 500 or so on a crit, my fireball has seen RED numbers of over 800 fully meta'd and with the items needed, so having a little less mana can be ok, after all ya gotta give up something to get what you want right?

Umm hello, you totally missed the point of the discussion, the point was that wizards SHOULDNT have less, they should have the same sp if not more than a cleric. It is alot easier for wizes to take mental and imp mental toughness due to the free metamagic feats. Though that is mitigated by the minor "advantage" clerics have in enhancements. The "advantage" being that clerics dont have as many useful ones so its easier for them to find aps to spend on the energy train of enhances.

[Vi'Aed]

Edit: AHHHH Mental and imp mental, thats the difference. Call me Columbo!!!!!! With the extra feats that Wizzes get mental and imp mental should be a given id think. Heck i found room for them in my cleric build!

Bingo bango boingo I do not, infact, carry mental toughness. My guy is specced more for spell penetration and focus than for extra spell points. He carries spell penatration feats and some focus feats (although I might be inclinded to trade out conjuration at this point.)

[MysticTheurge]

It is alot easier for wizes to take mental and imp mental toughness due to the free metamagic feats.

Except that a wizard "needs" more metamagics than a cleric does. A cleric really only "needs" Extend and maybe Empower Healing. Wizards probably "need" at least Extend, Heighten and Max or Empower (or both).

(Using the term "need" loosely of course.)

[Balthazar_No_Oni]

Except that a wizard "needs" more metamagics than a cleric does. A cleric really only "needs" Extend and maybe Empower Healing. Wizards probably "need" at least Extend, Heighten and Max or Empower (or both).

(Using the term "need" loosely of course.)

And you get how many extra metamagic feats do you get? Oh thats right 3 at last count, with another to come at lvl 15. Seems like you can afford mental and imp mental. So even IF you NEED 4, alot of people, myself included, dont think heighten is necessary, you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend. And a better one than a cleric that needs both extend and empower.

No excuses for not taking it really, unless SP isnt a major need of your wiz build... i guess.