sneak attack fighter

[Shroonith]

Looking for feedback on a fighter/paladin/rogue build.


Firstly let me explain the strategy behind this build:
It is my intention to build a STR based two weapon fighter with sneak attack using a deception weapon mainhand and a backstabbing weapon offhand. The benefit of this is of course the bonus from my backstabbing weapon will be applied to both weapons. The level(/s) of rogue will be to enhance my sneak attack damage by 1d6+2 as well as cap the UMD skill or Bluff skill . The levels of paladin will be for the obvious reasons of AC, saves, and immunities as well as the possible +1 to hit with shortswords in 4.1.

I see this happening in 2 ways:
10FTR/3PLD/1ROG or 9FTR/3PLD/2ROG
(at 16 this would be 11FTR/3PLD/2ROG or 12FTR/3PLD/1ROG)


Now let me tentatively go through Attack and Damage.
Assuming 10FTR/3PLD/1ROG, and 18 STR at start and a +5 Elemental Short Sword (or Rapier) of Deception mainhand and a +3 Short Sword of Backstabbing +5 offhand:
18+3(@4,8,12)+3(FTR enhancement)+6(item): 30STR (+10 modifier)

Mainhand Attack:
13 BAB
10 STR
5 Weapon
-2 TWF
+2 Drow Melee Enhancement
+2 Weapon Focus Piercing + Greater Weapon Focus Piercing
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30 - Base
+5 When Sneak Attacking (Deception)

Offhand Attack
13 BAB
10 STR
3 Weapon
-2 TWF
+2 Drow Melee Enhancement
+2 Weapon Focus Piercing + Greater Weapon Focus Piercing
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28 - Base
+5 When Sneak Attacking (Deception)

So, the attack chain would be M30,M30,O28,M35,O33,M40,O38, which is very respectable, and will probably hit most of everything as it is
Now when deception procs or with glitterdust allowing sneak attack this becomes M35,M35,O33,M40,O38,M45,O43.
All of this is without buffs, add another 7 to that list when using the basic haste(1) greater heroism(4) and good hope(2), and you will almost never miss.

Now lets talk damage, the pride of this build:

Assuming one level of rogue and the rogue enhancement for sneak attack damage +2. This build could easily handle power attack but let us ignore that at the moment for practicality's sake.
Mainhand Damage:
1d6+5 Weapon
1d6 Element
10 STR
+2 Drow Melee Enhancement
+2 Weapon Specialization Piercing
-------------
2d6+19
+1d6+10 When Sneak Attacking (Deception)
total when sneak attacking
-------------
3d6+29

Offhand Damage:
1d6+3 Weapon
5 STR
+2 Drow Melee Enhancement
+2 Weapon Specialization Piercing
-------------
1d6+12
+1d6+10 When Sneak Attacking (Deception)
total when sneak attacking
-------------
2d6+22

Assuming a round without sneak attack and crits, the damage of a round would be 4(2d6+19)+3(1d6+12): 11d6+112 or on average 150.5.
Assuming a round of sneak attacks but no crits(which there probably will be), whether from glitterdust or a deception proc, the damage of one round would be 4(3d6+29)+3(2d6+22): 18d6+182 or on average 245. (Power Attack would add 35 damage a round uncrit either way.)

That is a giant increase, about 95 points of damage, considering how often deception procs (at least once every 2-3 rounds on average for me, about 10% of the time) and how your to-hit goes up when this happens allowing you to really capitalize. There is nothing stopping a person from getting a +4 Elemental Burst Rapier of Deception mainhand and going improved crit here either.

For comparison, a dwarf fighter using a +5 elemental greataxe does:
1d12+5 weapon
+1d6 elemental
+2 racial enhancement
+15 Str
+4 weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization
+10 power attack
-------------
1d6+1d12+36

In a round of attacks that is 4d6+4d12+144 or on average 184. Remember this was vs 150.5 +35 from PA : 185.5 (280 when SA). This of course does not factor in the glancing blows damage(which has become woefully less thanks to the ******** run-away AI), but rather is simply to show u that on a single target this build would easily outdamage what is considered one of the best DPS builds out there. Remember that when attacking the same monster as another person, the minute they get agro, lets say by critting, you enter into your sneak attack mode upping your to hit and damage to the levels shown here.

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Looking into the future, when level 16 comes out, a second level of rogue will offer evasion, 1 dex , 1 attack when sneak attacking, more UMD or Bluff, and lots of cheap energy resist enhancements, coupled with the lvl 11 fighter armor mastery this character could easily wear light armor with little AC loss.
On the other hand, taking 12 levels of fighter would give an additional feat (mainly the greater weapon specialization piercing[+2 damage from piercing]). And we have the +1 to hit with short swords paladin enhancement coming soon.

Looking at all this information, its time to address my questions.
Here are some of the questions I face:
1.) Will what I am giving up by losing the last level of fighter be worth what I am gaining with a second level of rogue?
(STR enhancement vs DEX enhancement, evasion vs a free feat etc)

2.)What should my starting stats be depending on which path I choose? I am looking for a STR of 17 or 18. Included in this I must ask how important hit points are compared to AC and how important those are compared to saves. I will need a minimum of 15 DEX at start as I have available a +2 DEX tome allowing me to get the ITWF and GTWF feats. Is CE worth it? 12 int +1 tome for CE.

3.) Assuming you believe I should take a second level of rogue, should i be using a light armor for evasion? How many points do you believe i should put into DEX for AC?

4.) What feats do you think I should take? Assuming a low CON, how many times should I take the toughness feat. Should I consider the Whirlwind feat path? Should I look into improved feint? Power Attack?

5.) UMD or Bluff or both (2 levels of rogue for both). How exactly does diplomacy work? Is it instant or would I be better off just attacking and hoping for a deception proc?

6.) I will be obviously getting the enhancements for using shortswords and rapiers, and those are what i intend to use. (or possibly only shortswords if the 4.1 paladin enhancement is implemented). What other racial enhancements are worth while? How good is SR? Depending on my armor, and levels of rogue, should I take the DEX enhancement? As a DPS, what should I shoot for my AC and saves to be?

7.) Is there anything else I should be considering when I build this character?

8.) Kind of a bonus question: If I happen to acquire a Treason short sword, would that be worth using over my other offhand weapon.
Treason: +5, keen, deception, backstabbing +3, 20% less agro from melee damage.
Current: +3, backstabbing +5
The trade off be weaker sneak attacks but more deception hence more sneak attacks. I would lose +2 attack +3 Damage from sneak attacks (from mainhand and offhand), but gain +2 attack +2 damage from my offhand and probably 175% of the deceptions I am currently getting.

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End Notes:
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This could easily be done by dwarves with axes, I just figured drow might be better positioned to take advantage of the 3 levels of paladin and UMD or Bluff with their higher charisma.
Deception makes the monster stop attacking you for a short period greatly increasing this builds survivability.
This build is definitely for killing living creatures, and will not enjoy its amazing damage against enemies such as undead and other things immune to sneak attack and critical strike. This does not make me believe it will do any worse than the average fighter verse these.

[Casta]

Look up other enhancements before you decide on how many lvls rogue, if your going 3 paladin even 3 rogue might work out well. I know with 2 lvls rogue on my fighter i got 1 dex 1 hit with sneak attack and 2 damage with sneak attack as enhancements, all cheaper then the 14th lvl fighter enhancements would be.

And for twf I would just make a dex build, your going to have 17 already for the feats why not just go all dex. You lose a little damage from str but my dex build has 24 str and 30 dex right now and thats with no tomes and only +4 items. This also lets you wear robes because at 30 dex with a +4 armour item you have just as good ac as +5 fp would give you, robes have better stats and are swappable there easier to find greater resist on the cloaks.

[Creeper]

Two things before you start. You can't use a dex tome to open up the twf feats. You have to have a natural 17 Dex. I went 17 str and 17 dex with my fighter. Also, Greater Heroism doesn't stack with good hope.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Diplomacy IS instant. Bluff is not (although I think Improved Feint is?).

The second level of rogue is only worth getting for evasion and/or skill points.

[Casta]

Two things before you start. You can't use a dex tome to open up the twf feats. You have to have a natural 17 Dex. I went 17 str and 17 dex with my fighter. Also, Greater Heroism doesn't stack with good hope.

tomes do work for getting feats, enhancements and items don't.

[Aranticus]

a few flaws in the build

from the number of attacks u giving, it must mean u have GTWF which requires a high dex and a 30 str would mean high str and all stat increase at lvl to be placed into str. and you also want rog for umd and thus this would mean a good int score. dump stat will thus be wis, con, cha

low wis = low will save, low con = low hp, low cha = no save bonuses with pally's divine grace and since u have such a high dmg, you will be the target of the mobs alot of times and thus your low con does not help. imo, u took pal3 for fear immunity, why not just take pal1. rog2 is much better if u wear armor and since u have high dex, evasion will rock

it'll be hard for you to take whirlwind. u need the twf feats, 2 more in weapon focus so thats 5 and u also need toughness, trying to fit in whirlwind is gonna be hard.

last but not least, many new mobs now have fortification of some sorts. its hard to put in a sneak attack

[Shroonith]

this would be reasonable:

18STR
16DEX+1Tome (or 15+2)
8CON
10INT
8WIS
14CHR

this would end up around:
18+3(4/8/12 bonuses)+3(

+ a level or 2 of toughness?

PLD lvl 3 gives 2ac and 2 to all saves in its aura, 1CHR, CHR modifier to saves, Immunity to fear and disease as well as lay on hands for a quick heal.


consider this with divine grace:

i lower my dex from 12 to 10, reducing my modifier from 1 to 0.
i then put those 2 stats into chr raising it from 10 to 12 and raising the modifier from 0 to 1.

now lets look at my throws:
in the first case i would have
+0 fort, +1 reflex, +0 will
in the second case i would have
+1 fort, +1 reflex, +1 will

on the other hand with CON:
lets say i have 12 CON and luck of heros (+1 all saves)
i would be getting +2/+1/+1 + 1HP/level
taking 2 points off of that and putting it into CHR (and switching feat to toughness) I would be left with +1/+1/+1 +1hp/level +3hp but this would also allow for the toughness enhancements. (a possible 20 more HP)
This is a harder choice than dex most assuradely, but fighters have good fort saves

[Aranticus]

ftr12/pal3/rog1 with 8 con, unbuffed hp will be 9x15 + 5 = 140. 1 toughness feat will add 19 hp = 159. you'll need a high + con item and a gtr false life item to make up for your low hp, not to mention fighter toughness IV

assuming a +6 con item, gtr false life n toughness IV max hp will be about 250. most frontline tanks now have a hp total of abt 250-300 w/o gtr false life at L14

[Shroonith]

Hmm, how much of a hit would i be taking with 17STR?

17STR +3 Enhancement
16DEX
12CON
10INT
8WIS
13CHR +1 Enhancement

[Aranticus]

Hmm, how much of a hit would i be taking with 17STR?

17STR +3 Enhancement
16DEX
12CON
10INT
8WIS
13CHR +1 Enhancement

max is a +1 to attack n damage rolls and possibly -1 to str check

ie 17+3(lvl raise)+3(enhancement)+6(item)+2(tome) = 31

max str for a ftr is currently sitting at 32, so it means you get str bonus of 10 compared to 11

but hp wise you'll be getting a whopping 28 hp more, not to mention +2 to fort saves

[Darkgnoll]

Why the paladin levels at all?

For a sneak attack based fighter, I'd skip that. It would allow more attribute points in Dex/Str, which is important, IMO, for the concept, and allow for more rogue levels.

I mean, really, if one of the key aspects to your build idea is sneak attack, why not bring it up past 1d6. I'd go with fighter 11/rogue 3, for 2d6, maybe even Fighter 9/rogue 5. Depending on how many skills I wanted to pump, since fighter does not get many skill points.

[Daarken]

Have made a similar build

My suggestions:

CE and improved feint very important: works instantly with your feint attack -gets the mobs off or allows more sneak attacks.

I didn't use any paladin, but not a bad idea. I went more rogue (10fighter/4rogue) to have high trap abilities and high bluff (for improved feint to work well). It also has the side effect of more sneak attack damage.

Lots of ways to do it, but is a fun build since you have to pay attention to how you fight rather than just mash keys.