Umm, I really don't know what else to say beyound that question title.
I guess a constructive answer is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Umm, I really don't know what else to say beyound that question title.
I guess a constructive answer is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
What handwraps do you have that aren't working?
Well, let's start with ghost touch, go to transmuting, and....let me get you that link...
This is just one of many links about this...(edit) just happening where I ended up last about it.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ight=handwraps
*snickers*. What? 30 weight isn't thick enough for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by query
But on the serious side, it probably was a simple fix for the vicious but not the others. For all we know the tables could be really messed up and that is a much more serious issue than just labeled handwraps not working correctly. They could have been labeled one thing but the treasure tables tried to set up the actual item completely differently. That is NOT a simple fix. It may have been that the vicious were the only ones that actually had a consistent correlary action so that they could be fixed quickly.
Weaking of Enfeebling, Malidroit of Bone Breaking, Ghost Touch, Transmuting, Still not getting Dmg on Holy either.
/waits for a dev response (Everything else is simply speculation and hodgepodg)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunga
I get damage from holy, it just doesn't bypass DR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizzini
As far as vicious being the easiest to fix and that's why it was the only one, I don't buy it. We all know the answer because they always work this way.
my guess is they will fix it when they get around to it.....and that does not mean it is slated for a fix either.
Other than the fix for vicious I have not seen (but maybe missed) any dev references to their being a problem.
I would just put em in the bank or sell em on auction for cash....until or if thye do fix em.
They were significantly different bugs. The Vicious fix was an easy one with few potential halo effects. The others were more complex and more likely to have unexpected side effects.
Thank you Eladrin. Exactly what some of us thought and posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Guess those tinfoil hats can come off for a few days...
:cool:
... for a succinct answer!
But it kinda begs the questions:
Will Handwraps ever be fixed, or are they too difficult a challenge for the coders to solve?
Will Handwraps ever get fixed, or are they too low on the list of coding priorities?
Will we ever get more succinct answers that will satify the gaming populace?
Will are intrepid adventurers get out of this diabolical deathtrap?
Stay tuned for the next action-packed episode!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
Did ya really Expect him to say...
"well, VIscious bug was a significant benefit to players so that bug obviously had to be fixed much more rapidly than any bug that hurts players."
OMG they're porting DDO to Halo 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Garth
DV reply aside.IMO, I would say that their was more calls/complaints to fix the viscious bug than for the others(anyone for a glass of HaterAide?). I personally can think of many other bugs that have been around ALOT longer and never seem to get fixed. Having said that, im not a programmer so i dont know coding or how hard various bugs are to fix. I also have much repsect for the devs and their jobs as being tough and thankless; just not sure how various bugs/issues get fixed or get to the top of the list on getting fixed while others never seem to even make the list.
Could you give us back the Vicious DPS until you get a working loot system for Monks, at the very least? It was the ONLY thing we had against the Shroud Portals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
ermm... maybe kamas of greater construct bane...? Or even simplier, just forget Ki (since you don't really need it in there anyway) and go uncentered with 2 x Adorin's malice...Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCannon
Or just use vicious - it's actually very efficient against portals since it gives a 2:1 mana to dps ratio.
Garth
Especially since a lot of Mass Cures are being thrown anyway, and, unless you're getting actual aggro, a monk (with evasion and good saves) shouldn't be taking damage from other sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by willphase
Does anyone know if viscious handwraps stack with mountain stance for generating ki? That would be a side benifit for all the monk haters out there to complain about. If not, i believe it should be fixed as quickly as they ner... i mean fixed viscious handwraps. Also, i believe viscious should trigger madstone rage the same as any other type of damage. I do not have a pair for my monk as she's only level 10 now but i have tried viscious weapons on my fighter and it was a no go for triggering madstone.
Yes. At least then it would have been honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaqt
Well, if you are not happy at how the devs are currently handling this situation you should apply to work at Turbine. I saw in a different thread they are looking to hire quite a few people.
Don't jump to the conclusion that they fixed it because it was beneficial to players. It's actually a class balance issue as well. You can look at it as an unintended advantage that the monks had over other classes; that gives monk players an advantage over non monk players. If monks don't take damage from vicious weapons I don't want my non monk characters to take damage from those weapons either.
Each bug is a different story. I'm pretty sure each bug is looked into and fixed as its own item on the dev's priority list. They probably don't plan on fixing all the hand wrap bugs at once or all the monk bugs at once. They fix a bug, test it, make sure it's fixed and move to the next one. If you try to fix everything at once they might just break the whole thing. So just sit back, relax and play another class for the time being. I'm pretty sure when other classes were new they had a lot of bugs as well.
So, you're putting the Devs in a no-win situation. They can say what is going on from their perspective and readers can scoff at it as lies, or they can just stay silent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
And you wonder why they so often opt to just stay silent.
Seriously, what motivation do they have here to either screw the players or screw the players and then lie about it? Does their pay get lowered if there are unfixed bugs that help players, but raised if there are unfixed bugs that hurt them? Do they get extra vacation time as a Lying and Obfuscation Bonus? What other motivation would you ascribe to them that could lead to this alleged result? Sadism? Sociopathy?
Just because so many players take the game so seriously doesn't mean the Devs do. From what they have demonstrated in the past, there is little evidence that they make moral qualitative judgments about bugs. To them, Bug 1408d is no different than Bug 1742c. If one is easier to fix than another with fewer risks, that one will get put in the queue first. You would do the same with problems to be resolved in your job. Why would you think they'd be different?
_
Nice tinfoil hat you have there ImpaqtQuote:
Originally Posted by Impaqt
I didn't expect an answer from them as it is. But the answer Eladrin did give is exactly what I, and several others, posted the reason as to why it was fixed and others were not - it was easier to fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaqt
He was honest and is still getting reamed.
:mad:
Speaking from a pure Marketing perspective I am surprised that they aren't fixed yet and thus the problem must be significantly complicated. The way of the Monk launch had more marketing dollars poured into it than others things have in the past and the press information and attention was higher than normal. To have the main weapon for this new, heavily touted class not working is, I am sure a top priority - if they understand how to market to their consumer base both new and old.
It would only make sense that they are working on it and fast.
Just my $0.02 - but I do have 10 years of Marketing RL work experience... :-)
haha my thoughts exactly. What did you guys expect him to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Impaqt
He could be honest or completely lying through his teeth. We don't know. You can't ream him OR praise him for being honest. Bottom line is they still aren't fixed and Turbine has destroyed whatever goodwill they had with most players with the way they have dealt with bugs in the past. They don't get the benefit of the doubt and that is their fault. Many players still remember the way the Abbot was "patched" including me :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by arminius
I started an entire thread on this, which was ignored by Turbine. I won't repeat the entire thing here, but suffice it to say, Vicious was not fixed because it was easy and the other changes were harder. It was fixed because a manager at Turbine prioritized it higher on the list than fixing the bugs with handwraps that help players. If fixing Ghost Touch, for example, was prioritized as a higher importance to be fixed than fixing vicious, Ghost Touch would have been fixed. Being a more complex fix doesn't preclude it from being included in a patch. Management decisions determine that.
What are viscous handwraps??
Are they liquid? Do they flow easily? How high is their viscosity? :p
Seriously guys they have known about alot of these issues for awhile now (sources say some where known about before mod 7 hit risia) and if they where easy fixes I am sure the bugs would have never made it to live.
Also the praise was to Eladrin for comeing in and GIVING an answer not really the answer itself. This thread is a prime example of why we DON'T see a lot of communication from them when it comes to these types of topics. All those that post "Devs please reply" where they don't come in and answer ... yah.
Milolyen
Ive pretty much shelved my "unarmed" monk until they get their **** together and fix the wraps. Its not that I dont think I can get by without them in most cases, or get a kama/staff to bypass DRs, I just dont think I should have to. Thankfully I dont really play much during the summer and feel they will have these semi-functioning weapons fixed by the fall.:):rolleyes:
I'm just telling you from my 10+ years of application management experience that that is not the way programmers generally work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
Bugs for them are most often value neutral. They are either just lines in an excel spreadsheet in a small shop or (as is more likely the case for Turbine) entries in software change control databases like PVCS or Subverision.
It is very often the case developers don't know or even care what the actual result of the bug is. They only know that Variable X is getting an invalid type error and it needs to reevaluated and given a valid type. WE see that as "ZOMG vicious is broken!!1!" but they don't see that end result at all. To them it's just another work item to get checked off to move on to the next one.
_
yup most likely the case is. Manager hands the programmers a list of bugs that needs fixing. Programmers take list and dig in to see what is broken and where. I am a programmer and when I am working on pushing something live and have a list of fixes needing to be done I look to do the easiest first while figuring out the best way to do the harder ones and would be suprised if they didn't do it like that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by arminius
I am also pretty sure they knew about the ghost touch not working long before the vicious not working properly.
Milolyen
The Vicious handwrap mutation, essentially, was trying to damage the person wielding the monk instead of the monk itself. That's a pretty safe and easy fix, solved by changing some minor targeting information.
Handwraps operate very differently from normal weapons - instead of hitting a creature with the handwraps themselves (like a normal weapon), the handwraps instead add effects to your unarmed attacks. This is pretty clear when you inspect a monk wearing handwraps. Normal vicious weapons damage the thing they hit and their wielder on-hit. Monk handwraps have to give the monk an ability that damages the thing they hit and themselves on-hit.
The fix that Tharagrim's made for handwraps bypassing DR is a significantly more complicated change than the change necessary to make Vicious operate as expected, and even without much investigation I can think of a few things that it could possibly break - the natural Ki Strikes (Magic, Lawful, Adamantine) of a monk for one. That fix required more time in QA to verify.
Contrary to popular belief, we prefer to have patches fix more problems than they cause, and don't order things to do by "do they hurt the player". (Tempest constant +2 AC bonus, Monk metamagic, and Marilith misbehavior are three bugs I can think of off the top of my head that help the players but haven't made it to live either.) This was just a bug fix.
Risk rates very highly in those management decisions. One of the very first things asked is "how confident do you feel about this fix?"Quote:
Being a more complex fix doesn't preclude it from being included in a patch. Management decisions determine that.
If it makes people feel better to think that I'm out to get them, uh... Good for them, I guess.
It definitely makes me feel better, although I wish you wouldn't always follow me home from work, El.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Oh my, I can't believe this. People demand an answer. We get one. And all you can say is "you're lying to us"?! I'm astonished Eladrin bothered to even reply again in this thread, if I were him I'd just think "looks like I'm developing a game for ******** players, let's just ignore them".
I would guess that that guess is accurate. If I were to guess at what was going on behind the scenes, I'd say that the complications with Ghost Touch are grounded in the way that the whole incorpreal thing was done from the ground up as a massive fudge. Picking around in the fudge without unintended consequences is just harder than segregating out the big block of untyped damage that vicious represents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milolyen
BTW, all of this doesn't get them off the hook for all the lack of proper prior planning when it comes to handwraps and monks. Not having "pure good" or banes or some of the other types (including potency, etc), and having that be monks' primary weapon (one out of only four allowed), and knowing that monks are so important to DDO's relaunch and future path, all that is inexcusable. Especially when they were already in the middle of the paladin controversy (and coming off the ranger controversy/fix) wherein whole classes are written off for lack of minimum power to complete endgame quests.
_
Personally, I see it this way....Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
http://a6.vox.com/6a00bf76d09e104383...ebfe8e1d-500pi
LOL ya I was thinking the exact same thing. I also think Zaodon and the others must have struck a nerve there.Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
Oh and thanks for a more detailed explination there Eladrin.
Milolyen
P.S. Now mabye some of them tin foil hats will start to come off ... oh wait no they wont because they are lies I tell ya .... ALL LIES MUHAHAHAH *runs into corner after laugh and acts scared*
O that was me, sry. Srlsy, will try not to in future. Kthxbai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenor
_
I don't think you're "out to get us" or any such nonsense. However, you've confirmed what I said in my other thread, which is that prioritization of fixes is not done from a "what benefits the players most" point of view, but instead from a "what is the easiest, least risky thing we can do" point of view. By making this decision to rate player satisfaction as a inferior criteria to, as you say, a "very high" consideration for stability, the end result is things that adversely affect players can be left in the game longer while fixes that annoy us make it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
That doesn't mean I think you hate us, it just means I disagree with the way you prioritize issues.
Yes, that's clear. That was a really bad design choice by your programmers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
There's no reason that handwraps should've functioned differently from regular magic weapons in this regard. They should simply be a weapon with a different animation which happens to have zero polygons in its 3d model.
You'd still need some special code to add the attack benefits of being a higher-level monk, like increased base damage dice and magic/law/adamantine qualities. But that is a bounded effort, because there are only four effects there, and there will never be more. Instead it was implemented in the reverse way, which means it apparently takes a bunch of custom effort to make all the different possible magic properties work on handwraps. And it also means that in the future when you add a new weapon property, it'll take further special care to make it work on handwraps.
Picking and choosing like this doesn't make any sense, for every bug that impacts us positively that is fixed, I can come up with another bug that impacted us negatively that gets fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear
This I COMPLETELY agree with. I don't see why handwraps had to be coded SO much differently than weapons. The simple fact that handwraps worn stats show up in your characters buff sheet should be a clue that this application of the weapon was perhaps not the best route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
I get the idea, since monks' damage dice increases with level, it was easier to code the monk himself as the weapon as opposed to the handwraps. However, I think that you probably would have saved yourselves a lot of work if the time had been taken to code handwraps as a weapon type rather than a character buff.
I think the truth is best exemplified by a favorite few words of many parties: "Let's form a shield wall." That benefit has existed from the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
I would consider game stability to be the main thing that gives players satisfaction. I'm sure if the game started crashing or fixes started adding more bugs than they fixed, then player satisfaction would drop a lot faster than the level it stays at if these minor issues are left unfixed for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
Garth
I didn't mean to imply that stability should be abandoned for player satisfaction when evaluating bugs. I meant to say that stability should not, IMHO, be such a "trump card" to player satisfaction. i.e. Rate bugs that affect players negatively a little higher even if they are slightly more risky. Not to just throw stability out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by willphase
They didn't say they make priorities based on the EASE of the task, but more based on the relative levels of RISK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear
In fact, this shows they have customer satisfaction at the TOP of their list, because they purposely avoid creating more problems than they fix.
Its not like Vicious was Risk Level 1 and Ghost Touch was Risk Level 947,635 or anything. You make it sound like if they fixed ghost touch first, it would have crashed the servers. It was a small amount of additional risk as compared to fixing vicious, and even then that's just an educated guess on the developers part. For all they know, fixing vicious could have caused more problems than fixing ghost touch from something they didn't foresee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenor
Risk can be calculated, and don't be so ignorant to think it can't. The devs know how their coding is formatted, and do understand how to determine what fixes are more likely to cause more coding issues. Of course sometimes they miss something, hence the blade barrier bug that seemed to be affected by change to firewall and other AoE's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
I'm not saying it would have crashed the servers, you put those words in my mouth.
Who are you to say it was a "small amount of additional risk?" Do you know the code? Do you work at Turbine? No, you don't.
Pretending that you know how to do Turbine's job better than they do is arrogant. They are not perfect, but nobody is, and although YOU might prioritize things differently, that doesn't mean that you're right.
In fact, if it was too difficult to make monk levels override the damage dice of "handwrap weapons", they could have simply worked around it by giving monks a +2, +4, +6... damage bonus at levels 4, 8, 12 etc. That would be implemented exactly like a variation on Weapon Specialization or Dwarf Melee Damage, and it would bring unarmed monks up to the same average damage they're supposed to have, without replacing the dice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenor
Then the only other potentially tricky part is how to convey the Magic/Law/Adamantine properties onto the handwrap. Well, the magic one is irrelevant because the handwrap is already enchanted... and as for Law and Adamantine, if they had been simply left out, hardly anyone would care. Players would much prefer to have their Holy, Enfeebling, and Transmuting wraps working properly than to have the ability to beat DR/Law.
There is no "right" or "wrong" here, this entire discussion is about opinions. Its my opinion, as well as others, that Turbine should give more consideration to bugs that affect players negatively, even if that *slightly* increases the risk to a patch, or even if they have to take a little longer to QA the patch to mitigate that increase in risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenor
Ultimately, its the Management at Turbine who's opinion counts. However, good managers are always open to hearing the opinions of others. Turbine has now heard our opinion on this matter. Whether they change or not is not up to us.
You have to remember this patch was more than about handwraps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
They fixed blade barrier (I think?), they fixed assassinate, they put the buffing chamber in VOD, they added no-reentry mechanics to Hound and VOD, and I could go on.
Why on earth would they delay the patch for up to 2 months just to QA and fix a risky bug, when they had all the previously mentioned fixes already QA'd and ready to go live? I know from private conversations with developers that the bugs fixed in this patch had patches in QA before Mod 7 ever went live.
I would rather patch now the bugs that have been conclusively fixed, rather than wait an indeterminable amount of time for a non-essential fix. Several of these bugs WERE major issues for many players. Leaving them around just to satisfy the handwraps issues would have been a poor choice, especially when a monk can just pick up a quarterstaff or kama and deal with the fact that he's not unarmed, at least until the bug is fixed.
Are you sure? I'm definitely not an expert in unarmed combat, but I thought it wasn't simply replacing the fists damage with the handwraps damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
the ability for a monk to overcome various DR (based on monk level) was probably their biggest reason for the method they chose... scaling damage would be easy to implement (as it's already being done with enhancements, sneak attack, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
personally, i'd try to find a way to involve handwrap features (DR overcoming and damage) as "locked" enhancements for handwraps: unlocked by having the appropriate monk level.
"Stability" also happens to be an armor enhancement that checks your characters alignment before it grants bonuses. If (and only if) you are TN, the bonuses are applied.Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
This same tech should have been fairly easy to apply to check for class/level, and this technology would have useful applications for other classes/items as well... except that we're talking about providing an "item buff" instead of a "character buff". Item buffing issues have been the reason for us not getting several spells already (sorry pallys), and apparently lacking the tech is now branching out to cause other problems.
Of course, perhaps they tried, and it was found to be too difficult. We'll never know.
Stability is a major factor of player satisfaction. You should know yourself since you're getting so upset about some bugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
So if players felt that a fix that was more risky needed to make it into the game immediately over an easy fix, and the Dev's rushed it through QA and bad things happened, you would be more satisfied?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
I approve this message!!Quote:
Originally Posted by willphase
nm, included in previous post
I see what you mean... keep in mind that unarmed combat must work both with and without handwraps though, so you'd have to duplicate stuff if you wanted to code everything on the handwraps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laith
Plus, A_D mentioned how any new effect will be more complex to code since it will need to work on handwraps. That's true, but if you change it so that handwraps are coded like weapons, then the problem is any new unarmed feature you add will be more complex to code since it will need to properly work with/without handwraps as well.
In the end, I doubt we (players) can criticize the implementation when we have no clue about how DDO is coded.
Or, you know, they could not rush it and test it properly ......Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelpout
o.O
We have many clues. And overriding all that, we have the unescapable result: Turbine was unable to make existing weapon properties work on handwraps prior to the module 7 release.Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
That means they did do something wrong.
It's true that customers have incomplete knowledge to make these judgements... but you know what? Their producers have incomplete knowledge too.
Very good reasoning, I'm impressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
They add bugs all the time along with new features. It's always been like that, and it will always be, it's the same for all software that has deadlines.
Maybe Duke Nukem forever will have zero bug. But maybe I won't be playing computer games anymore either when it comes out.
In my example I used the word immediately, for there are times that players are clamoring for a fix "right now". If they are to get it out immediately, I don't know of a way for them to not rush it and get it out.............immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
Eladrin is out to get me! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Except, his point was that the total realm of potential new unarmed features that could be added in the future is significantly smaller than the total realm of potential new weapon features that could be added in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
There are a lot of magical weapon enhancements left to be added to the game. On top of that, there's an entire realm of item-affecting spells that could potentially be added to the game. Plus any sort of character-weapon interaction effects you might want to add.
There really just aren't that many potential "unarmed features" that they could add in the future.
Not to mention that tech to add effects to weapons based on other aspects of the game (such as adding the "lawful" descriptor to handwraps at a specific monk level) is something that they really have needed to work on for a very long time, and something that would have opened up a big group of other possibilities (instead of creating a large pool of duplicate work).
Sorry, that makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelpout
Patch 7.1 was a patch to address some critical issues - bank transfer, blade barrier, etc. This had to be done "as fast as possible". While coding those critical, needed fixes, they had the option to include other, non-critical fixes into the patch, and they chose to include ones that were the least risky.
If players are demanding a fix for Bug A, then you need to release a patch that fixes Bug A. That means testing it properly, even if the testing takes a while. Immediately does not mean in a fixed amount of time, it means "as fast as possible yet still fully testing, no matter how long that takes."
If you release a fix to Bug B because it was faster, that hardly satisfies the players that wanted the fix for Bug A. If faced with a fast fix for Bug B or a slightly longer fix for Bug A, players would choose to wait a little longer for Bug A if that is the one they are "clamoring" for.
To date, 7.1 has been released, fixing vicious (Bug B), yet 7.2 has not yet been hinted at, announced or released to fix all the other issues with handwraps (Bug A).
precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticTheurge
item buffing spells factor in pretty big for pally/druids.
of course, druids are probably even less a priority now that they're not D&D 4e core...
There is no such thing as D&D 4e. There is a new game that has a D&D logo on it, but its not D&D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laith
/gets off soapbox on the complete suck-ness of 4e....
Hey Eladrin, any chance that fixing the material effects on handwraps will reintroduce the old Ward of Undeath bug? I need to fill up Mav's status window with some permanent "buffs" again.
the same thing can be/was said about 3.0. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
QFT and absolute hilarity!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by tihocan
Firstly, I have never seen a thread on this forum start with the title of " Dear Dev's, ____ is really bothering me, but please take your time and fix it correctly". I could be terribly mistaken, but most look like. "____ is broken, fix it NOW" or some other variant that lacks any sort of patience (note: I am not disagreeing that the fixes should be done correctly as quickly as possible).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
Secondly, It is entirely possible that some fixes pass QA while others are still being looked at and are indeed causing new and irksome issues. I think it would be less satisfactory, for me as a player, to wait on fixing anything at all, until all the fixes are ready to be patched in.
As an example, the vicious handwrap issue was an easy fix. The others are not so simple and are creating other problems. They are doing a patch and that is ready to go in, so it does. The others, unfortunetly have to wait. If they waited on all the easier fixes until the harder ones were ready to go, not only would we be waiting longer for any fixes, when it went through it might turn into a Module size download.
The developers no, but you obviously didn't sit in those little management meetings in which fixes were determined by number of complaints.
That is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arminius
This is going to be a long thread
This guy speaks the truth!Quote:
Originally Posted by willphase
It was fairly clear early on that handwraps were working this way (the monk being the weapon). The enhancement showing up on the examine window made it obvious. When you could see the Unarmed Combat feat being added multiple times in order to add the additional damage to the monk strikes as they levelled, the mechanic was revealed.
Describing the vicious bug, the fact that wraps don't get eaten by slimes(they're not the weapon, the monk is and characters don't have durability) and the other quirks was fairly easy to do. The design choice has complicated the combat system where it becomes dense with interacting enhancements/attributes. A problem that is easy to describe is no longer easy to repair. The complaint that the issue which was a low hanging fruit has been picked off first simply because it was to the detriment of those taking advantage of it is verging on childish.
It is not as if they are denying that the other issues do not exist, simply that the fix implementation is more complex. If this was reversed and it were the Ghost Touch attribute that was fixed and vicious that was delayed, I doubt you would want the fix delayed since it would be in your favor.
I have a shroud ready monk myself and would dearly love to see these issues resolved. I am not willing to delude myself to the point that I blame the problems we're seeing on malice! Complex systems interacting in unexpected ways are more than enough trouble without adding some fictional "they don't like XXX and want us to suffer" foolishness.
I understand the desire to take your character all the way to the pinnacle of the content as fast as possible, but it seems that we're going to have to wait a bit for our monks.
Alternatively, we can scrape around and find some greater construct bane/transmuting QS or kamas and limp along until the issues are resolved.
Kraki
So I imagine you have never coded, or if you do, you code perfectly and have never had code returned to you for fixing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
If you have never had a bug in your code you are the first and only programmer to do so, congratulations on perfection, Seriously I highly doubt it though, and I bet you have had just as many stupid bugs come back to you as the rest of us who have coded enterprise levels apps have had.
It is very easy to second guess when there is no consequences, I mean whats the worst that can happen to you here. You get banned from a video game forum
Honestly, I think a lot of the ongoing suspicion is to some degree natural. But the event that fueled the suspicion that devs were out to screw players, more than anything else, was the whole handling of the abbot raid.
A very logical, thought out post. Too bad you are speaking above the heads A to Z's of the forumsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kraki
I totally want to sig that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
(Although, the actual popular belief is that you introduce new, creative bugs to keep us on our toes, so each new patch and module it's like "ok guys, let's take it really slow, we don't know what will not work now...argh durn firewall isn't allowing spawns! Bah, good one devs!" :p)
Wrong. I have decades of experience programming, for fun and for money. And obviously I've made some mistakes, because if I hadn't, it would mean I was wasting time working on projects below my ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar
That's an utter non sequitur. It has NOTHNG to do with what's been written here, and is instead pulled fully from your imagination as an excuse to hurl some insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar
Nah. He's right, really. If you have decades of programming experience (screenshot please :rolleyes:) than you would understand what is happening here, and stop flaming a decent company. I have experience managing nationwide projects, which affords me the wisdom to say, "**** happens, let's get it fixed. Next problem."Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
If you have a technical problem to describe, than be specific, detail your experience and be helpful in the process of fixing it. Flaming the company is just more that the techs have to read, and get ****ed off over, to understand what is wrong.
Sorry your handwraps are broken guys I dont know jack about coding but I'm guessing because it's the first new playable class in this game there were bound to be some issues.
That accusation bears no relationship to my posts in this thread, or any thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunga
Smart people will take some time after a problem to stop and investigate what was done wrong, and to see how they could've done it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunga
I described the problem in sufficient technical detail that any borderline-competent system designer could understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunga
Hey you! Stop being logical. This is the DDO forums we don't take kindly to then type of things around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twerpp
Yes, actually, it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
Smart people are working hard so that you can repeat yourself over and over here.Quote:
Smart people will take some time after a problem to stop and investigate what was done wrong, and to see how they could've done it better.
Which is why we are all wondering what compels you to continue to trash the company after you've described your problem in detail.Quote:
I described the problem in sufficient technical detail that any borderline-competent system designer could understand.
No the tone of your posts are soley designed to show how Turbine screwed up, and if they had designed it your way they would be better off. I too have decades of programming experience as both a programmer, a programming lead, and a Systems Integration Architect. And one thing I have learned over the years is that second guessing others code without intimate knowledge of it inner workings and relationships to other systems is simply giving your opinion on how you would do something better and has no real bearing on how you are going to solve an issue working within the design and system restraints of an already existing system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
Any issue can be solved through a complete redesign, but it is not always the most cost or time effective way of doing anything, so you work with what you have.
I am sure Turbine has already gone through the excercise of saying "Yup we missed that in the design, ok lets fix it", they looked at the 2 issues vicious and everything else, and determined vicious could get a quick fix and be part of the scheduled patch, but all the other effects based on the design, will take longer and much more regresion testing and will be forthcoiming in a future release.
Second guessing the design at this point serves no real purpose, as it add no real value to the solution required to resolve the issue, unless your only solution is a complete redesign.
And for the record, I think the bugs are not even remotely the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar
Not to repeat myself (but.... I'm gonna repeat myself): The issue for me and others is that when Turbine evaluates bug/patch priorities, they are not giving enough consideration to issues that negatively impact players.
That's all.
Maybe Turbine is run by aliens who will drive us all insane by way of viscious handwraps, and then eat us. Then they won't have to fix ghost touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaodon
It could be, even at this point, that a complete redesign is a better solution to the existing (and future) problem(s) than simply attempting to repeatedly patch past mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar
Actually, the problem looks more like their handwrap implementation was too much of a redesign.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticTheurge
Instead of using the existing code and treating handwraps as just another weapon (with some special features like being invisible in the 3d world and giving 1x str damage even though it occupies two body slots), they created a whole complicated thing where handwraps are a non-weapon item that fits in the same body slot as a weapon, and which buffs your character with magic weapon effects that then apply to your unarmed attacks.
That's a whole lot of indirection to reach the same place.
It means there's a lot of editing, a lot of effort, and a lot of places where something can go wrong. For example, I'm told that Maladroit works on handwraps but Weakening doesn't. Since those effects are only minor variations on each other, the fact that one is buggy and the other isn't indicates insufficient centralization of code.
To quote a very famous developer,
"Anyone who thinks a piece of software is perfect, is a fool."
That maybe the case but that is Turbine's call not ours, as we have no idea what the scope of the problem is. Attacking the design serves no purpose though as you have no idea why certain design choices were made in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticTheurge
It is very easy to look at a design choice and say hey look at what this broke, but it is much harder to say what this design choice fixed or kept from breaking because those things are functioning as you expect them to.
To Zaedon's point, it does appear that way sometimes, but there are just as many little bugs that help us out that get don't get fixed right away either as Eladrin pointed out. Tempest AC is a perfect example, many of the so called exploits took quite a while to get fixed and went through several patches/releases before being addressed. The mod 5 relics took a while and it was 2 to 3 weeks before they made the items bind so that they could not be traded. Traps on elite quests were broken for a long time thus negating the need for a rogue or someone with rogue skills, or taking a chance on dying or getting massive damage and having to waste mana on heals.
Maybe you can let us now where in the process you are for fixes regarding alchemical bonuses, Abbot, bee pollination, and othe stuff??Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
I think this is what most of us wanted to hear............... I can easily wrap my head around this explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Thank You for communicating this.
SAO I've got another set of Handwraps that aren't working...
+4 rr Halfling
they dun work
just thought I'd add it to the list...
maybe this bug is attached to rr
Aesop
oh and since I'm being lazy and not reading the thread ... I'm getting weird DR on mobs that don't have DR... like Wraithes and Mephits vs my unarmed attacks
probably has been mentioned but hey
Aesop
Mephits have DR X/Magic, which is generally irrelevant in DDO since you're always using a magic weapon. But since handwraps aren't applying properly, that's probably what you're seeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesop
Theoretically, Wraiths (and all other incorporeal creatures) should be completely immune to non-magical attacks. They may have implemented this as DR X/Magic as well.
If you have been around that long then I am sure you have heard the saying "Why reinvent the wheel" which means (for anyone who does not know) why do something from scratch when you can just copy what has already been done and proven to work. I know in my company code gets reused all the time. I am sure the same goes for Turbine because you can see it in the various quests with the reuse of graphics (that 90% turn slope with a pool of water/acid/lava/ice at the base of the slope anyone?). If they felt they needed to "Reinvent the wheel" with the implementation of handwraps I am sure it was for a very good reason. We don't know the reasons because we don't know how their code is set up to begin with. You are just assuming they did it because it was a choice and not out of necessity. And you know what they say about assuming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
Milolyen
Unfortunately, evidence points to A_D being correct, as this is my assessment also.
ummm question .... WHAT evidence? Only "evidence" would be the programmers code and so unless you are a programmer for turbine I seriously doubt you have seen it. Anything else would be just "assuming" what is actually the problem. Sorry but "assuming" and "evidence" are two VERY different things ... show me a fact that shows A_D is correct then we can talk. Because from what I have read all it is is A_D trying to bash the programmers at Turbine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gornin
Milolyen