DDO Devs, Myopia, and Hiatus

It's amazing how many people don't understand the definition of the word 'archer.'

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

It's not an exploit if the devs know about it and dont change it. It's a mislabeled mechanic. Deal with it.

I stated very clearly: I dont give a **** about a single build being nerfed, I care that an entire type of build (builds, actually) has/have been wiped out, and it was not communicated, discussed, or in any way alleviated by new interesting mechanics being added. This was 100% devs listening to squeaky wheel tryhards who don't like getting outgunned by throwers and making a huge but predictable tactical error. No one was leaving the game over throwers before, but some might now. Not just because they liked playing FoTW throwers, but because they see the devs use little discretion and hamfisted decision making when it comes to balance, and there's no predictability to their decisions.

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I agree, they should be clear about which abilities are bow only in AA tree and which are for throwers and/or x-bows too. They do that in the other trees with ranged abilities.

I agree that throwers need some enhancements, absent the AA features. Not a ton, mind you, but some. They should, imo, be high RoF, low damage options.

I think that bows need a big boost. They are behind both throwers and really far behind X-bow. They should, imo, be the moderate RoF, moderate damage option. On par with light repeater xbows.

(For completeness sake, Heavy reapeater should be slower than Bow and light repeater but more damage. At the bottom of RoF is great x-bow, but with the largest damage per hit).

Special abilities/special attacks should come from there. All should be unique to the attack method and be limited in duration, uses, cool down, or whatever, to create strategy and challenge in game play.

Rather than talking about quitting and just complaining about the problems, do what others are doing (like Turn Undead) and talk about what the solutions look like.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

It's nice when people can read and take the time to be thoughtful about what they read, instead of just knee-jerk reacting to whatever bias and inborn preference they bring to a discussion. I expected more from Aheras (DDOTalk71), but he's been getting smoked by me in kill counts for a long time now using a crossbow, so I understand his pent up frustration.

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Kill counts. Lol. You going to propose we PvP next?

Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

It's funny how some jonnycomelately's are on here telling me "oh use DWS".

I have builds, in my build thread linked in my sig, of DWS T5 thrower builds. Where do you think you got that clever idea Thrudh? Lord knows you aren't contributing over time to thrower build canon. But thanks so much for the helpful advice.

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Oh I probably got the idea from one of your threads... I'm rather new to throwers (only been using them for the past year or so).

Still amazes me that you, of all people, would claim that Fury throwing builds are DESTROYED, and the playstyle is unviable, when you yourself have a DWS thrower that doesn't rely on Slayer arrows, and will still do very well in this game.

Why the lie? I DO consider you an expert on thrower builds, but your over-the-top hyperbole in this thread will now make me doubt you as a "expert witness" going forward. And probably the devs will feel the same way too, which is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by LT218

While shuri builds aren't ruined as Jake claims, these unannounced changes to the Arcane Archer tree do reduce it to "bows only". Given that bows are a poor DPS outside of Manyshot, it essentially makes the Arcane Archer tree a newbie trap. Why put 30 or 40 APs into a tree to get T5 or Capstone for something that's only going to provide mediocre damage output at best? There are many other ranged builds that put bows to shame. Mech rogues, BE Arties, shuriken builds, etc. Hell, you can probably roll a Kensai Swashbuckler thrower that puts out more overall damage than an Arcane Archer.

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This is a excellent point. Now that one can only use bows with AA, it may be time to buff the tree.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet

LOLz, whining about never working as intended game mechanics finally getting fixed.

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Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet

It's amazing how many people don't understand the definition of the word 'archer.'

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Again, exactly.

But then again, often it's just pretending.

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

This is a excellent point. Now that one can only use bows with AA, it may be time to buff the tree.

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This makes sense.

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Settle down. He never made that distinction, so there was no reading comprehension fail on my part. So your personal attack is invalid. The only thing I, apparently, failed at was mind reading, since Jake didn't state any of what you said above. Unless I should know that your post and his are connected. Because you aren't the same poster. So why should I make that connection?

Hmmmmm...

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This is outrageous. I have no idea who Morro is, but I assure, Cordovan bans dummy/same person accounts with great prejudice. If I was Morro and Morro was me we wouldn't be here.

I wish had Morro's statistical chops.

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Rather than talking about quitting and just complaining about the problems, do what others are doing (like Turn Undead) and talk about what the solutions look like.

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I already did that, 2 days ago.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Combat-Styles

'nuff said

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Oh I probably got the idea from one of your threads... I'm rather new to throwers (only been using them for the past year or so).

Still amazes me that you, of all people, would claim that Fury throwing builds are DESTROYED, and the playstyle is unviable, when you yourself have a DWS thrower that doesn't rely on Slayer arrows, and will still do very well in this game.

Why the lie? I DO consider you an expert on thrower builds, but your over-the-top hyperbole in this thread will now make me doubt you as a "expert witness" going forward. And probably the devs will feel the same way too, which is unfortunate.

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I said Fury shuriken builds are destroyed. The DWS enhancements alone do not hold a candle to previous AA+DWS builds in Fury. Please don't call me a liar because you don't understand the topic being discussed.

I didn't say all shuriken builds are destroyed, I said there is no reason to play them versus an xbow build now. I stand by that until someone tests a build and shows me otherwise.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I've just gotten around to confirming that Dev's have in the last update changed every single ability in the Arcane Archer tree to function only with a bow.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I'm 90% talking about the ability to use Slayer Arrow, I don't really care about the damage imbues. The DC based stances were a great way to combine casting like effects and DC's with ranged combat.

Instead now we all just have to Warlocks. I hope you're happy about that too

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Settle down. He never made that distinction, so there was no reading comprehension fail on my part. So your personal attack is invalid. The only thing I, apparently, failed at was mind reading, since Jake didn't state any of what you said above. Unless I should know that your post and his are connected. Because you aren't the same poster. So why should I make that connection?

Hmmmmm...

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Emphasis mine.

Notice the time stamps on the posts.

Even if you didn't read past post 1 (which is pretty unreasonable by itself in what at the time was a 2 page thread); the fact that you didn't recognize that he was talking about all the arcane archer abilities not just the imbues when it was literally in the first sentence of his post means you either posted with an incomplete lack of knowledge about the arcane archer tree or failed a basic reading comprehension check.

This is not a personal attack. This is objectively the truth and is more of a correction of invalid information rather than maligning your character.

Cheers~

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Originally Posted by Morroiel

Emphasis mine.

Notice the time stamps on the posts.

Even if you didn't read past post 1 (which is pretty unreasonable by itself in what at the time was a 2 page thread); the fact that you didn't recognize that he was talking about all the arcane archer abilities not just the imbues when it was literally in the first sentence of his post means you either posted with an incomplete lack of knowledge about the arcane archer tree or failed a basic reading comprehension check.

This is not a personal attack. This is objectively the truth and is more of a correction of invalid information rather than maligning your character.

Cheers~

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See, you know I'm not Morro because he's actually much nicer than I am

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Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet

It's amazing how many people don't understand the definition of the word 'archer.'

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You are of course referring to the devs who left these abilities working with all ranged combat for the better part of 5 years, right? Not very nice of you to insult the devs like that

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I said Fury shuriken builds are destroyed. The DWS enhancements alone do not hold a candle to previous AA+DWS builds in Fury. Please don't call me a liar because you don't understand the topic being discussed.

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I disagree. Sniper shot + Adrenaline rotated with Head shot + Adrenaline still puts out incredible damage and is perfectly viable in all epic content. In fact, this is what your DWS build uses. Fury shuriken builds were not "destroyed". One of your favorite Fury shuriken builds doesn't even take a single AA enhancement. Like you, I like Head shot with the blind and a 12 second cool-down far more than Slayer with a 20 second cool-down.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

Archive:
Fury Stars:
12 Ranger/6 Monk/2 Fighter - Human. Lammania Red Kobold kill time: ~71 seconds

Overview:
Everything changed with the new balance pass, and everything that's old is new again. This post lists my current build: centered Human Shuriken/Manyshot Bow hybrid, running in Fury of the Wild with 10k.This build uses Manyshot off timer, dual damage action boosts, and the new and improved 10K for huge bust damage in Fury of the Wild. As noted in Holymunchkin's thread, Adrenaline regen is incredible with IPS and 10k/Manyshot. Unlike that build and some others, I mine makes liberal and constant use of Sniper Shot.

I really don't like Slayer arrow since they nerfed Manyshot. Without 4 guaranteed arrows, the average damage per Slayer/Adrenaline/Manyshot volley has really been reduced. Also, with Ranged Power, Sniper shot is now much more powerful, as base damage has increased greatly since the original Monkchers. This means a +2 Multi from Sniper is now 2/3rds affective as Slayer, but it's available every 6 seconds, instead of Slayers 20. You can use Sniper Shot 4 Times for every slayer arrow. The math works out like this:

At~117'ish RP (50 Wisdom during 10k) and 70 base damage, that's ~152base Damage.The +2 Crit multi from Sniper shot during Adren makes adds 304 base to the shot(152x2), + the x2 from Shuriken for 608 base damage before Adrenaline. Multiplied by 4 that's 2432 Damage.

Slayer adds 152+250x2 =804x4 for Adrenaline= 3216 a Shuriken.

But, In the 20 seconds between a slayer shot and it's cooldown, I can do 4 sniper/adrenaline shots, for 2432x4 Damage = 9728 damage. Now, you could calculate your damage more evenly in the AA/T5 Scenario by adding in 3 more adrenaline shuriken throws (5 Seconds cooldown on Adren means Slayer + 3 Adren throws/20 seconds) without slayer or sniper in the interim for another 152x4 = 608 x 3 = 1824 + 3216 = 5040. That's ~93%% increase in damage (9728 vs 5040). For me, this is a no brainer over T5 AA.

Just to address the Elemental arrow argument: 150'ish proc damage with Elemental arrow on every Shuriken is nice, but it does not make up the difference, and you can easily use AP to get T2 or even 3 of elemental arrows and still be using Sniper shot. I skip Elemental arrows all together because the Damage is already so high on Adrenaline + 10k/Manyshot + Sniper Shot/Head Shot/Aimed Shot/Merciful Shot + Dual Boosts

*These damage calcs are just being done assuming 1 Shuriken/Throw animation. It does not take into account extra dex procs, or Doubleshot, or Throwing speed. But seeing as these are relatively constant between builds, then proc rate of missiles * throw speed/sec can just be considered a constant coefficient for both scenarios of Slayer vs Sniper.

Additionally, Slayer and Sniper are not mutually exclusive. You could take Slayer and Sniper, but you lose 5 damage, 20% Archers Focus damage on red names, 20% Doubleshot, and Head Shot which I find very useful for the Blind. I'd rather not lose all of that for the small extra damage Slayer Arrow offers over Sniper shot. It is perfectly workable however.


Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: Rest
Wis: 16
Cha: who cares

Dex, duh. Wisdom is for Ranged Power during 10k, and Int is for Know the Angles.

Levels Progression:

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Ranger: PBS (Heroic), Dodge (Human)
Level 2 Monk:Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 3 Monk: Quick Draw (Heroic), Zen Archery (Monk)
Level 4 Monk:
Level 5 Monk:
Level 6 Monk: Precision (Heroic)
Level 7 Monk: 10 Thousand Stars (Monk)
Level 8 Ranger: (Rapid Shot)
Level 9 Ranger: Deflect Arrows (Heroic)
Level 10 Range: Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 11 Ranger
Level 12 Ranger: Master of Forms (Heroic), Manyshot (Ranger)
Level 13 Ranger
Level 14 Ranger
Level 15 Ranger: Empower Heal (Heroic)
Level 16 Ranger
Level 17 Ranger: Improved Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 18 Ranger: Grand Master of Forms (Heroic)
Level 19 Fighter: Improved Critical: Thrown
Level 20 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Completionist (Or Combar Archery or Weapon Focus Thrown/Ranged)
26: Toughness/Holy Strike/Improved Mage Armor
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed), or Epic Reflxes if you have XV Speed in gear.
28: Doubleshot

Enhancements: These are flexible, but here are some guidelines:
Human: 3AP Damage boost, +1 Dex
Ninja Spy: 11AP for Advanced Ninja Training, and Shadow Fade (this is a defensive choice, feel free to just go 6 for ANT)
Harper: 25AP, KtA, 6 RP, Construct FE, 4 Dex
DWS: 41AP, including 4th core for +1 Crit threat, RP Boost, all 5 T5 abilites, with giant as FE (feel free to change).

There are other possible setups, but this is my favorite. You could do less in Ninja Spy, and pump up AA for some proc damage from Elemental arrows, or take Ki Regen in Henshin with less points in Harper. Kensei has extra action boosts, though I twist extra for 9 which is generally enough. Long fights I can regen them with Draconic Vitality swap in on offhand.

Epic Destinies:
Fury of the Wild. I take 2 Tiers of Primal Scream, 3/3 Fast Healing (this plus Empowered Cure Mod and Cure Light is plenty, no need for Cocoon), Acute Instincts 3/3, Ward Against Weird 1/3, Sense Weakness 3/3, Gird Against Demons 2/2, Fury Eternal, Unbridled Fury.

You could still go beast mode in other Destiny's, but Red Named damage is so much better on this build that it's just no contest.

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@OP I get that you're upset about the changes, but really, you think "slayer arrow" should work with throwing anything? Wouldn't it be called 'slayer projectile' or 'slayer shot' or just 'slayer' for your argument to hold water?

Apropos.

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Originally Posted by LXP

I think you are forgetting or simply ignoring one little thing here - that the AA was never meant to work with anything but a bow. As long as it worked with other stuff, it was nothing but a bug that got exploited. And I am sure everyone who used it knew that.

And it's just that simple. To use another, rather current example: if you see a +10 some ability, +10 something else wondrous craftsmanship item without ML on the shard exchange, buy it at your own risk - because there is OBVIOUSLY something wrong with it, and it might get FIXED any time later.

And it's the same thing with these exploit builds. They might be fun, but please stop whining when the underlying bugs get fixed and these builds become useless.

Just my 2 cents.

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+1 (+2¢)

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Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet

LOLz, whining about never working as intended game mechanics finally getting fixed.

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+1

Fixing what's wrong in DDO is the first step in fixing what's wrong with DDO.

Transparency is a good thing, and there isn't enough of it in DDO. I get that there are certain realities that inhibit 100% transparency, BUT we get something much much closer to opacity. And that isn't good for anyone in the long term.

Hi what stealth nerf to tree builds are you referring to please? I really would like to know because I'm in the middle of a Tree life and haven't felt any difference yet. This makes me worry.

Also, RIP furyshot shuri builds. You were fun. But I guess there's no place for fun in a game :)

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

I disagree. Sniper shot + Adrenaline rotated with Head shot + Adrenaline still puts out incredible damage and is perfectly viable in all epic content. In fact, this is what your DWS build uses. Fury shuriken builds were not "destroyed". One of your favorite Fury shuriken builds doesn't even take a single AA enhancement. Like you, I like Head shot with the blind and a 12 second cool-down far more than Slayer with a 20 second cool-down.

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the build you showed is old, and was vastly eclipsed (proven by myself and others) by a Slayer/Sniper combo with Adrenaline. 71 second kobold time is 2-3x what a good Slayer/Sniper Adrenaline thrower could do as of update 35.

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

I said Fury shuriken builds are destroyed.

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Your opinion against any other. I enjoy play as thrower , and furi-shuri still very viable, fun and outperformed many other. Say what furi build is destroyed is clearly lie, intended or not - absolutely unimportant for me, sorry.

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The DWS enhancements alone do not hold a candle to previous AA+DWS builds in Fury.

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Lol. I never used AA imbue for furi build (exclude last time when I try it and, of course, it has been fixed immediately 8) ), only DWS, and it always outperformed almost any other. And FoTW shuri still outperformed LD or SD, builds you find viable.

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Please don't call me a liar because you don't understand the topic being discussed.

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Are you sure you understand, lol?

Sorry, but your posts overtime become more and more similar Nokowi posts - formerly expert, now not play about 2 year and only whine to forum again and again. Currently your expert builder skill undoubtful... currently. But... you sure you better than Firewall, for example? And he's never use AA-exploits!

AA exploit build was more viable? Sure.
Without use exploit it become unplayable and nonviable? Clearly no.

As say other great player:

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Originally Posted by Rys

We do not care. We adapt. Unlike some.

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8)

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Originally Posted by Ulfo

Your opinion against any other. I enjoy play as thrower , and furi-shuri still very viable, fun and outperformed many other. Say what furi build is destroyed is clearly lie, intended or not - absolutely unimportant for me, sorry.



Lol. I never used AA imbue for furi build (exclude last time when I try it and, of course, it has been fixed immediately 8) ), only DWS, and it always outperformed almost any other. And FoTW shuri still outperformed LD or SD, builds you find viable.



Are you sure you understand, lol?

Sorry, but your posts overtime become more and more similar Nokowi posts - formerly expert, now not play about 2 year and only whine to forum again and again. Currently your expert builder skill undoubtful... currently. But... you sure you better than Firewall, for example? And he's never use AA-exploits!

AA exploit build was more viable? Sure.
Without use exploit it become unplayable and nonviable? Clearly no.

As say other great player:



8)

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reported for baiting and trolling both me and nokowi.