You know the game is not balanced properly when...

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

Did you see the initial suggestions for swash? The ones by the devs. They were incredibly weak. Then they went crazy.

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Right. The initial suggestions were very cautious. Then they "went crazy" when public feedback started flying in. We seem to be in agreement.

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

The fact that a lot of classes are OP wrt to content does not preclude that the current upgrades where a bad move.

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Certain recent upgrades might be a little too strong, but they weren't a bad move.

Builds that have been out for a while don't get nerfed to s**t, and for good reason. It's not fair to people that put time and possibly money into those characters for real nerfs to happen. That means they had to make classes come up to the monkcher/sorc/f/m/p level and attempt to balance ranged vs melee combat styles. The only problem was that the pendulum swung a little too far in the other direction, and I believe it was largely our fault.

One big problem is that people here, myself included, get greedy, although to varying degrees. Other problems range from people not understanding how proposed changes will actually affect things in game, to not enough testing happening on lamannia, to not enough people providing feedback, to people being loud despite having no number sense, to people lobbying for classes or trees that they favor with reckless abandon.

All I'm saying is let's not constantly outsource the blame for changes that are "too strong", especially when we are driving those changes. It's absurd. We need to be looking at the feedback process and refining how we do things.

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Originally Posted by Systern

From what you said of Druid and FvS, Arti-lovin' isn't going to happen in 2015, correct? :(

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This is what I am getting. Again Arty's which need the most help in Epics will be the last class to get help =(

Just tired of every other class getting passes when a lot of them are functioning just fine.

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Let me ask are you interested in game going to a trinity system or requiring all toons specialize in on discipline? Or do you prefer self-sufficient toons?

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As I have always said.. self-sufficient. But that doesn't mean that I think that Barbs and Pallys should have sky high surivability and offense. (Pally's for defense and Barbs for offense should be the plan)

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Originally Posted by Severlin

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

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Why even offer a different xp reward or item reward for a "killer dm mode"? I know of people, including me who would play it strictly for the challenge, not for any reward or item. It's something your "researching" or whatever you called it is clearly missing. Heck, "killer dm mode" could even give 0 xp and 0 chests and they would probably be more popular then nearly everything just because of the challenge that some want.

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Originally Posted by mudfud

Why even offer a different xp reward or item reward for a "killer dm mode"? I know of people, including me who would play it strictly for the challenge, not for any reward or item. It's something your "researching" or whatever you called it is clearly missing. Heck, "killer dm mode" could even give 0 xp and 0 chests and they would probably be more popular then nearly everything just because of the challenge that some want.

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If they don't have something as a reward I am betting people would run them once and stop. I want a harder difficulty also BUT it needs to reward for it being harder.

I still think we just need to make Elite harder then the current version myself.

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Originally Posted by mudfud

Why even offer a different xp reward or item reward for a "killer dm mode"? I know of people, including me who would play it strictly for the challenge, not for any reward or item. It's something your "researching" or whatever you called it is clearly missing. Heck, "killer dm mode" could even give 0 xp and 0 chests and they would probably be more popular then nearly everything just because of the challenge that some want.

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Not that I disagree but I fail to see how it can have a lasting appeal.

Just how many times would you re-run the same challenging stuff just for the sake of it? Until it becomes non-challenging? What if that takes one day. That's the problem with a killer difficulty without incentives tied to it.

I think it would be nice to offer a progression after elite because for some, there is about no progression at all difficulty wise from level 1 to 28 (by that I mean that the game is simply too easy for their char/skills even when it comes to the highest challenge). I wish end game was a good compromise but "end game" comes by 4-5 quests per 3+ months. That's a long wait as far as i'm concerned.

I missed the first iteration of champions but that seemed like a good way to gradually add challenge to the game. If only it was well met.

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

That's because...

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I just wanted to jump in and say: This is the kind of feedback I personally am looking for. Thought out, well paced (if a bit speltrong) and definitive point by point responses. Much better then 'you guys stink, it's bad.'
Also, while there isn't any math in this particular post, well thought out and explained math heavy posts are also informative to me! (remember to define your terms!)

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Originally Posted by Andoris

Wizards are not a solo build and that is okay.. your an all powerful wizard.. you should have a cool hat and minions :)

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Yeah. You suck unless you group. No wonder you swapped to a melee wizard. Melees done right (PAL, BRD, BRB) don't suck anywhere now. They dominate everything. Solo or group? Total win either way. Replace any caster in a party with a proper melee, and you've improved the group. Any proper melee is worth more than your wizard in WGU. That's a simple fact. Casters are so far behind the curve right now it's absurd. Why are they so far behind? Because the DEVs decided to turn melees into demi-gods overnight.

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Originally Posted by Azarddoze

Not that I disagree but I fail to see how it can have a lasting appeal.

Just how many times would you re-run the same challenging stuff just for the sake of it? Until it becomes non-challenging? What if that takes one day. That's the problem with a killer difficulty without incentives tied to it.

I think it would be nice to offer a progression after elite because for some, there is about no progression at all difficulty wise from level 1 to 28 (by that I mean that the game is simply too easy for their char/skills even when it comes to the highest challenge). I wish end game was a good compromise but "end game" comes by 4-5 quests per 3+ months. That's a long wait as far as i'm concerned.

I missed the first iteration of champions but that seemed like a good way to gradually adds challenge to the game. If only it was well met.

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Champions in there first reincarnation were great. A lot stronger then they are now.

I say no reward because the people who want an actual challenge would do it. I know many who are like me, triple completionist, all etr's done, and sitting on lvl 28 with all endgame items already. If we were to login strictly for items and things we want or to help guildies/friends out, we simply wouldn't be logging in. But to finally get a challenge in quests, that would be a reason altogether to start logging in more and more.

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Originally Posted by mudfud

Why even offer a different xp reward or item reward for a "killer dm mode"? I know of people, including me who would play it strictly for the challenge, not for any reward or item. It's something your "researching" or whatever you called it is clearly missing. Heck, "killer dm mode" could even give 0 xp and 0 chests and they would probably be more popular then nearly everything just because of the challenge that some want.

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And you are saying that you would run it more than once? And even if you would only run on killer dm difficulty all the time you are part of a minority. Most players will only do quests for the reward. They will rather run 20 enorm MoDs than try to get a group for ee and the result is that the raid itself is easier than getting people to do it with. It would definitly not be more popular.

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Originally Posted by etotheipi

Yeah. You suck unless you group. No wonder you swapped to a melee wizard. Melees done right (PAL, BRD, BRB) don't suck anywhere now. They dominate everything. Solo or group? Total win either way. Replace any caster in a party with a proper melee, and you've improved the group. Any proper melee is worth more than your wizard in WGU. That's a simple fact. Casters are so far behind the curve right now it's absurd. Why are they so far behind? Because the DEVs decided to turn melees into demi-gods overnight.

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Gonna go out on a limb and say you prefer caster types and aren't happy about melee's finally dominating the game?

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Originally Posted by Tilomere

Ya, but then you get called an elitist full of yourself! These forums contain dozens of builds that are EE capable for each class, many of which are far more powerful than needed, and yet forum players are saying there is a lack of balance.

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You also have to look at the source when people are complaining for balance. Someone in this thread is new to playing a barbarian and now they are a scholar on what balance is. Some others who post about balance here have been corrected numerous times in this thread (and in other threads) about simple game mechanics (how adrenalineworks) yet they are the ones that have all the answers?

I am no expert on what needs to be done but at least if I post in a thread I know what I am talking about. In the right hands, there are millions of possibilities for making a great toon. The problem is that there are to many idiots that do not know simple game mechanics yet they come here spouting their dribble and get angry when they are called out on their lack of game knowledge.

Nothing elitist about it. Just a lot of uninformed posters and they refuse to look at the big picture.

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Originally Posted by mudfud

Champions in there first reincarnation were great. A lot stronger then they are now.

I say no reward because the people who want an actual challenge would do it. I know many who are like me, triple completionist, all etr's done, and sitting on lvl 28 with all endgame items already. If we were to login strictly for items and things we want or to help guildies/friends out, we simply wouldn't be logging in. But to finally get a challenge in quests, that would be a reason altogether to start logging in more and more.

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Good answer. Now on to longetivity, still not convinced.

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Originally Posted by davmuzl

And you are saying that you would run it more than once? And even if you would only run on killer dm difficulty all the time you are part of a minority. Most players will only do quests for the reward. They will rather run 20 enorm MoDs than try to get a group for ee and the result is that the raid itself is easier than getting people to do it with. It would definitly not be more popular.

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This 100%.

I could see a LOT of people who want a harder difficulty running these quests once or twice because they are new...then stopping because they have nothing to gain from it anymore.

Not saying its bad because that's what I would do also. I would absolutely run these quests at least once and maybe two or three times at most. I love a challenge but I also love loot/rewards. Its a huge part of the game for me and I want my reward for being able to beat the hardest difficulty.

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Originally Posted by brzytki

That's funny. Because it's single target, it's ok for it to have 90+ DC. Well, then let's give such a boost to Stunning Blow for example. It's single tagert as well. Oh and look, it's not even an insta-kill. So yeah, you should. /facepalm And no, it doesn't require the enemy to be helpless, or rather it affects not only helpless targets (Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned) and i browse bard's spells and their enhancements and i see a multitude ways for them to make a mob susceptible to that insta-kill, some of which are AoE spells, and of course we have fascinate with its also extremely high DC. And then add other party members, who can also prepare mobs for the bard's insta-kill.

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I think we need to talk about this more. It seems to me that DevPRoSev thinks one thing, while the observant members of the player base think something else.

1. Sev says it requires helpless, you say it doesn't?
2. Speaking of other party members, I often, and I mean OFTEN have the bard almost literaly run circles around us, killing, killing, killing them softly....

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Originally Posted by Vint

You also have to look at the source when people are complaining for balance. Someone in this thread is new to playing a barbarian and now they are a scholar on what balance is. Some others who post about balance here have been corrected numerous times in this thread (and in other threads) about simple game mechanics (how adrenalineworks) yet they are the ones that have all the answers?

I am no expert on what needs to be done but at least if I post in a thread I know what I am talking about. In the right hands, there are millions of possibilities for making a great toon. The problem is that there are to many idiots that do not know simple game mechanics yet they come here spouting their dribble and get angry when they are called out on their lack of game knowledge.

Nothing elitist about it. Just a lot of uninformed posters and they refuse to look at the big picture.

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Yep. Also players that prefer a type of class (say caster) get upset when the balance of power shifts away from them. I remember when Sorc's were considered OP because we could clear a dungeon in seconds and the poor melee were still trying to build AC up to avoid being hit. I could cast all my self buffs and gather an entire dungeon and destroy them in seconds. RA slowed that down some...but not a whole lot. Now we see the balance of power switch to melee and casters are up in arms. Not saying casters don't need help again because they do but this game goes in cycles. Give it a few cycles and melee will be scrambling and casters will be clearing raids solo and people will be screaming they are OP now.

I LOVE sorc's. I also love lots of other classes.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

I don't agree with adding another difficulty, but if you are seriously entertaining the idea of a "Mythic" difficulty than ill try to think of things that would encourage enough players who would want an actual challenge and play with a full group knowing that there is a real chance of failure.

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Off the top of my head, how about a leaderboard? Showing number of completions to death ratio? We could post these on the forum achievements section...
So now we don't need rewards reworked, just our name in lights!!!

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Originally Posted by Andoris

Look at EE Deathwyrm. While I have short manned it with amazing groups.. in general the content doesn't allow for more and 1 or 2 "under performers"

More content like that and a halt to the power jumps and we are in better shape.

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ive never run Deathwyrm so I have no idea other than what I have heard, but im all on board with tough end game content on EE. its just sucks investing all that time on past lives getting to the character you actually want to play and acquiring gear and trying to improve as a player that the only real place that makes it worth all that trouble is end game. if that's how its going to be than if/when I start new characters I probably wont waste much time running the hamster wheel and just jump into getting the gear and the fun challenge. if we keep seeing BTA relevant end game gear like epic Orchard than part of that grind for gear will already be cut short.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

No shared tree. Steelstar would kill me. He's been dying to work on the third Artificer tree. And an Artificer ED for that matter.

Sev~

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Feeling a little warm and fuzzy all of a sudden. :)

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

ive never run Deathwyrm so I have no idea other than what I have heard, but im all on board with tough end game content on EE. its just sucks investing all that time on past lives getting to the character you actually want to play and acquiring gear and trying to improve as a player that the only real place that makes it worth all that trouble is end game. if that's how its going to be than if/when I start new characters I probably wont waste much time running the hamster wheel and just jump into getting the gear and the fun challenge. if we keep seeing BTA relevant end game gear like epic Orchard than part of that grind for gear will already be cut short.

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First.. my mistake in calling out Deathwyrm.. EE Deathwyrm is a breeze.. I meant EE Mod (bad Ash no biscuit :) )

Agreed on BTA gear.. it is silly imo.. killed the encomony when we haven't gotten new tradable loot in almost a year.

Making the entire game play like one EE raid is not feasible.. an easy solution that would be a step in the right direction would be to remove all scaling in Elite or Epic Elite. It will encourage grouping and up difficulty all at the same time.