U57 Preview 1: Hit Point Pass

[Torc]

Hey folks! We are doing a pass on hit points. The goals here are to add a little more of a buffer for new players in general to make mistakes, and add a significantly larger buffer for melee builds.

A Quick Overview:

• Epic Defensive Fighting is going away. We are replacing it with many other options.
• The bulk of hit points EDF once provided is being distributed around the enhancement trees and the combat style feats, with some changes to class hit dice.
• SEE UPDATE AT END OF POST

HP PASS:

Part 1 - Grant HP for investing in melee feats magnified by class picks.

This is mostly is about adjusting heroic play because by high level our crazy con mod + reaper flat hit points dilutes it a bit, but it does matter enough that it will result in a buff for most players even after other shifts in the system detailed below.

-Heroic Durability updated:

Heroic Durability - +30 Hit Points. In addition, for every melee combat style feat you take you gain a 25% bonus to the hit points gained from your class levels. Epic and Legendary levels count at half value. This bonus can only stack up to 100%.


-Boosting the Base Hit Die of certain classes:

To keep the delta between a wizard and a barbarian tighter we shift the class dice around a little.

-All Classes with a Hit Die of d4 is increased to D6.

-Bard, Arty and Rogue are increased to D8s

-Ranger increased to D10s

Part 2 - Melee enhancement trees get broader access to competence hit point bonuses through t5s

This is largely adding to existing enhancements but there are a few reworks. The competence bonus is lower but this should be more than counteracted by the bonuses from Part 1 and or the ability to now cast spells without impairment.

There a few other minors tweaks in here. Mostly AP costs and a little tank tree balance.

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game.

Alchemist
T5 - Chemical Weapon gets multi selector called Chemical Body - grants 15% comp bonus to hit points and 10 melee power.

Artificer
T5 - Battle Engineer - Reconstructed Arms & Edges grant a +20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to their original bonuses.

Barbarians
T5 - Uncanny Balance rank 3 gains +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Accelerated Metabolism grants +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Barbs are getting a lower bonus here because their so tough for other reasons (and their HD bonus from styles is larger)

Bards
T5 - Swash Buckler - Second Skin, AP cost reduced to 1. Updated to: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Max Dex Bonus to Armor. Rank 3 grants a +20% competence bonus to hit points.
T4 - On the Mark: AP cost reduced to 1 per rank
T5 - WarChanter - Howl of Winter will now also grant a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Cleric
T5 - Warrior Priest - Divine bastion - Gain 15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Core 4 - Warrior Priest - Warcasting - Sacred hit point bonus reduced to 5%.
Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level
Divine Bastion Updated: No longer increases threat but grants a 15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Druid
Core 4 - Howl of Winter now grants a passive 5% primal bonus to max hit points in additional to it's previous effects.
Note: Druid wolves get their comp bonus from perfect natural weapon fighting.

Favored Soul
Class Feat - Stout of Heart Changed reduced to : 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level.
Divine Champion: Updated: No longer increases threat but grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Fighter
T5 Kensai- Weapon Master - Grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Thick of Battle replaced with a flat passive 100% threat bonus and now also grants 60 max hit points
T5 Against all Odds: grants 60 max hit points in addition to it's current effects
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - Grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Monk
new T5 for Henshin Mystic & Ninja Spy - Self Defense - Grants +2% dodge & 20% competence bonus to Hit Points
T5 Shintao - Meditation of War - All stances except earth now grant a 15% competence bonus to hit points in additional to their original bonuses. Earth Stance grants 25% competence bonus to hit points but not longer gives a quality bonus.

Ranger
T5 - Tempest- Dual Perfection grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Acrobat- Spinning Staff Wall - Grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Paladin
T5 - KOTC - Vigor of Life grants 20% competence bonus to hit points
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - Grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Sacred Fist - Divine Strike renamed Divine Striker, grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original effects.

Sorc/Wiz
Had to do a bit here since the "shorten" spell range play style is going away. Reminder any bonus marked passive works for just owning the enhancement.

Knight's Transformation Updated: While this toggle is active your base attack bonus is increased to equal your character level. When you successfully hit with an Eldritch Strike you gain Knight's Strike: +30 universal spell power and +3% Critical Spell Damage for 30 seconds.

Improved Knight's Transformation Updated: While Knight's transformation is active you gain a +1 comp bonus to your weapons crit multipler. When your Eldritch Strike hits you gain the additional bonuses to your Knight's Strike of +3 to Hit, Damage and 3% double strike. Passive Bonus: You gain 15% competence bonus to Max Hit Points (regardless if the toggle is on or not)

Knight's Striker: Knight's Strike gains +2 Evocation and Conjuration DCs and +20 melee power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.
Knight's Controller: Knight's Strike gains +2 Enchantment DCs, +2 Illusion DCS, +4 Spell Penetration and +20 Melee Power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.

Warlock
(No Updates to enhancement trees. Warlock enlightened spirit already has a comp bonus in their tree).

Falconry
T5- Dangerous- changes and get a multi selector option called Swift. Dangerous: +10 melee power, +20% competence bonus to hit points. Swift: +3 reflex saves, 10 ranged power.

Vistani
New Enhancement called Grudge Bearer, Multi selector off of Vendetta, grants +20% competence bonus to hit points for 2 AP.

Additional Changes coming in Lammania 2:

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

Fury of the Wild:

Lore of the Wilds: reduced to 5% primal bonus bonus to max hit points from 10% (but now no lore feats required)

UPDATE:

After reviewing player feedback we quickly realized we got the top base hit point range wrong on advanced end game melee builds and as a result the Competence HP % modifiers are to low in may of the trees listed above. Thinking the base was smaller mistaken lead us to believe the new style hit point bonus would offset some % mod shrinkages. (when I say base I means your hit points BEFORE % increases)

We will be increasing said modifiers for preview 2 as it wasn't our intention to significant impact these builds, And looking at monk, Master maker and Occult slayer who need some extra attention due to having a quality bonus in the mix. The Destiny changes are probably not happening or at least not going to look the same for preview 2.

In terms of feedback on raw hit point totals this preview will be a little bit of a wash for many elder end game players at least, but please continue to evaluate the location of the comp bonuses, the new combat style class hit point bonus, and other aspects of the pass. Posting builds in detail is very helpful.

On a side note we're looking at squeeze in a little fighter love since they seem splashed but rarely mained anymore.

-T

[mikarddo]

Getting rid of EDF is good. Definitely the best news in the pass.
Major nerf to FvS and Cleric Animal Domain relatively speaking.

As for the rest, looks fine to me but nothing spectacular or game changing.

[Entyri]

Edf going away is probably for the best. It had some serious issues, however, it also had really cool gameplay implications, gain this at the penalty of that, which will be sad to see leave.

Renegade mastermaker is going to be behind battle engineer in hp now? Seems a bit strange.
Same with occult slayer, went from tankiest barb option to not granting as many hit points.
And on that not, why are barbs being punished for innately having more hp? Thats like half of their whole gimmick. Doesnt sit right with me. Especially with other classes getting closer in hit dice to barbs. Same with tying the hp from frenzied into the healing where if you want to go damage you cant get it.

The other thing I would like to see changed is that it looks like classes that already innately get hit points such as war priest, dont get an equal amount of competence. Which in an ideal world means fvs and cleric would be in the same spot, but because things stack or dont stack, leaves cleric behind if they go aasimar for example.
Why not remove other types of hp from the trees and just level out the competence.

The style bonus to hit dice is pretty cool, I like that idea and probably comes out to be about the same amount of hp gained as lost on *most* builds.

Thank you

[voxson5]

So for pewpewpew and ranged spellcasters, you're nerfing us by 10hp?

[nobodynobody1426]

So lots of nerfs being tossed in while trying to gaslight the population that its a "buff".

[C-Dog]

So for pewpewpew and ranged spellcasters, you're nerfing us by 10hp?

Where are you getting this?

A lot of info up there, but I'm not seeing this end result. All I see are increases (except some Enhancement reductions)

-All Classes with a Hit Die of d4 is increased to D6.

-Bard, Arty and Rogue are increased to D8s

-Ranger increased to D10s

[rabidfox]

Cleric
Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level

Favored Soul
Class Feat - Stout of Heart Changed reduced to : 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level.

Dedicated healers are taking a big hit here on HP; we already trade-off a lot to heal harder raids/content.
How about giving HP % bonus in T5 heal trees for cleric & FvS with these changes too?

[Komradkillingmachine]

Occult slayer needs a Competence bonus as well. Otherwise it's a YUUUGE nerf to Barbarian tanks.

[Hephaestas]

Occult slayer needs a Competence bonus as well. Otherwise it's a YUUUGE nerf to Barbarian tanks.

Yes I quite think that's the point

[Yamani]

Diluting the need for tanks. Buffing caster/ranged hp. I can see how this will go over well.

[Lotoc]

Vistani
New Enhancement called Grudge Bearer, Multi selector off of Vendetta, grants +20% competence bonus to hit points for 2 AP.

Might I suggest this instead be a multiselector with whirling blades rather than with Vendetta; a button melee vistanis actually like pressing? The way it is proposed effectively leaves it as an option mutually costly to melee and thrower builds.

[Infiltraitor]

Hey folks! We are doing a pass on hit points. The goals here are to add a little more of a buffer for new players in general to make mistakes, and add a significantly larger buffer for melee builds.

A Quick Overview:

• Epic Defensive Fighting is going away. We are replacing it with many other options.
• The bulk of hit points EDF once provided is being distributed around the enhancement trees and the combat style feats, with some changes to class hit dice.
• The large majority of Melee builds, in fact most builds, will see a hit point increase. For focused tanks and FVS builds using stout heart this will be more of a neutral change.

Cleric
T5 - Warrior Priest - Divine bastion - Gain 15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Core 4 - Warrior Priest - Warcasting - Sacred hit point bonus reduced to 5%.
Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level
Divine Bastion Updated: No longer increases threat but grants a 15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Favored Soul
Class Feat - Stout of Heart Changed reduced to : 4 hit points per level and 2 hit points per epic/legendary level.
Divine Champion: Updated: No longer increases threat but grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

This is NOT a neutral change.

A 7000 hp cleric tank will lose 25% Epic Defensive Fighting and 10% sacred hit points and gain 15% competence and 5% sacred. That is -15% hp.
(4117 base with 1.7 hp scalar.)
15% of 4117 is 618.

Animal domain will lose 216 hp from domain and gain 220 hp from combat style feats. That is a +4 hp.

That is a 614 HP net loss.

Between this and the BAB cap at 25, basically has been two updates of back-to-back Warpriest nerfing. That is not a neutral change. That is build killing. Warpriest is no longer competitive as a tank if this goes live. Just delete the entire enhancement tree. 614 hp loss for warpriest tanks.

I'm not sure if the original plan was to completely nerf warpriest into oblivion, but this 614 hp net loss is nuts.

EDIT

Epic Destiny Nerf for Unyielding Sentinel is another 10% hp loss.

4117 * 0.25 = 1029

I'm losing 1024 hp this update. More of a neutral change???

[Mithrielwielder]

So, another nerf for pure melee. Maybe they figure everyone is playing casters, so they trying to keep the casters happy.

Put this in the category, "if it ain't broke, break it."

[Duhboy]

Barbarians
T5 - Uncanny Balance rank 3 gains +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Accelerated Metabolism grants +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Barbs are getting a lower bonus here because their so tough for other reasons (and their HD bonus from styles is larger)

Hey Torc, what about Occult Slayer and Frenzied Berserkers that take Raging Blows instead of AM?

[Xgya]

This seems like it leaves actual tanks in the dark. An outright nerf in many cases, especially Barbarians, but Clerics too.

Other melees might see the gap close a little unless they already used a maxed out EDF, in which case the change more likely closer to neutral.

I also think the change to VKF that can (and often does) act as ranged tree is a bit misplaced. I suggest instead making the multiselector Core 4, choosing between the critical improvements to throwing daggers OR critical improvements on melee daggers +20% HP.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Yes I quite think that's the point

For focused tanks and FVS builds using stout heart this will be more of a neutral change.


Not quite the point but thanks for playing.

[Firebreed]

Might I suggest this instead be a multiselector with whirling blades rather than with Vendetta; a button melee vistanis actually like pressing? The way it is proposed effectively leaves it as an option mutually costly to melee and thrower builds.

Renegade mastermaker is going to be behind battle engineer in hp now? Seems a bit strange.
Same with occult slayer, went from tankiest barb option to not granting as many hit points.

Agreed with both of these.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Barbarians
T5 - Uncanny Balance rank 3 gains +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Accelerated Metabolism grants +15% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Barbs are getting a lower bonus here because their so tough for other reasons (and their HD bonus from styles is larger)

Unyielding Sentinel:

Strength of Vitality reduced: Gain 2/4/6% insightful bonus to max hit points. Rank 3: Increase this bonus to 10% if the Mantle of the Sentinel is Active.

In here to make tanking less unyielding sent exclusive since this bonus was so large and to offset some of the increases from other sources.

Fury of the Wild:

Lore of the Wilds: reduced to 5% primal bonus bonus to max hit points from 10% (but now no lore feats required)

Revert Reaper scaling changes (per skull) that were introduced during stat squish update and ALL these changes become reasonable.

[rabidfox]

I was hoping to see where my HP would be at. But my HP is the same as it appears none of the HP stuff is in this lam build (maybe this was mentioned and I just missed reading it). Or maybe some stuff is working and I'm just on a build where it's bugged?

edit:
Fvs 17 / 3 Pal. with stout and using t5 US. So fvs hp and US both seem bugged for me vs the notes.

[Torc]

This is NOT a neutral change.

A 7000 hp cleric tank will lose 25% Epic Defensive Fighting and 10% sacred hit points and gain 15% competence and 5% sacred. That is -15% hp.
(4117 base with 1.7 hp scalar.)
15% of 4117 is 618.

Animal domain will lose 216 hp from domain and gain 220 hp from combat style feats. That is a +4 hp.

That is a 614 HP net loss.

Between this and the BAB cap at 25, basically has been two updates of back-to-back Warpriest nerfing. That is not a neutral change. That is build killing. Warpriest is no longer competitive as a tank if this goes live. Just delete the entire enhancement tree. 614 hp loss for warpriest tanks.

I'm not sure if the original plan was to completely nerf warpriest into oblivion, but this 614 hp net loss is nuts.

EDIT

Epic Destiny Nerf for Unyielding Sentinel is another 10% hp loss.

4117 * 0.25 = 1029

I'm losing 1024 hp this update. More of a neutral change???

Your base hit point score is a good 500 points higher than the top range of what we were expecting after the stat squish. (Congrats?) We were kind of expecting the tip top people to maybe drop 50-100 hit points which in the grand scheme of things probably won't change the time to kill on them on any meaningful difficulty.

This is why we have previews.

Please remember this is preview 1 (of I believe 3) and it's very easy to tweak numbers. Also consider that the EDF casting range limitations will be going away. This may not be something you've cared about on a tank build before, but you have an easier time flexing into caster healing or maybe something else and there has to be trade offs to that even if you have no intention of using them.

I'd love to know more about your build. How you put that total together and what PRR/MRR are you running?

-T